Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Hi Guys It was not my intent to bash either, I tend to get large amounts of expert advice from people who have never had to deal with this sort of pain management, so sorry if it sounded that way. Heck, most of the time Neurologists do not have the answers! boB, you are 100% right on the Tier inverter, I CAN hear that frequency and it is a trigger. But, the two battery - based transformer based inverters, my suggestion was that the EMF might not be audible! The fact you can't hear it does not mean that the EMF would not be a trigger. boB this is in a area that you are an expert in, both audio and EEE. I am a more hands on - practical guy, and the magnet in the hand vibrating away is a great example that lets me know that even tho I do not hear anything, it does not mean it is or is not a trigger. Interesting subject and thread! Cheers Logan On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:33-Feb 5, boB Gudgel wrote: > Michael Gullo wrote: >> Logan, >> >> Wow! Somehow you grossly misinterpreted my intentions on this subject. I >> meant no disrespect to headache sufferers as I too have had migraines for >> over 40 years although they are well controlled now. My "long dictations of >> "other reasons" and "placebo effect" are based on 30+ years of diagnosing >> and treating comorbid primary and secondary headache disorders which >> represents tens of thousands of patient visits. The point of my addition to >> his thread was to bring attention to the more likely causes of this >> affliction. Many people view this listserve and the people on it as experts. >> Indeed many are experts in the solar and electrical contracting industry. >> They bring their vast experience to bear and I listen closely. However, when >> I saw statements such as "it's definitely sound" or "it's EMF" and labels >> like "psychosomatic" surfacing, it was time to slow the inverter train down. >> I and I'm sure many others have been asked at a sales presentation if there >> are any ill medical ef fects from inverters. Until there is a peer-reviewed, randomized, double-blind repeatable study to confirm this, the answer is NO. A statement such as "I will say that inverters are a trigger" must be prefaced by "In my opinion", otherwise viewers here may misinterpret it as factual. I am open to the idea that people can be sensitized to a myriad of triggers but more study is needed. I wish there were simple solutions to chronic head pain disorders. >> >> Mike >> Dr. Michael Gullo >> Solar Solutions LLC > OK Mike.I hear ya ! You bring up great points. > > I will rephrase my opinion on this to say, IF it IS the inverter triggering > the headaches.... It's the sound. > Otherwise, I owe you a dollar. OK, I will shut up now. > > boB > > > > > >> >> >> - Original Message - From: >> To: "RE-wrenches" >> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? >> >> >>> Hi Ron >>> >>> I have been following this thread closely to see what people think about >>> Migraines. As a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) survivor and Migraine >>> sufferer I understand your employees pain! I love the long dictations of >>> "Other Reasons" for the Migraine and talk of placebo effect. Migraines are >>> no joke, and no fun. >>> >>> Triggers for Migraines can be many things, strong perfumes are a good one >>> for me. >>> But I will say that inverters are a trigger also. I have 3 different >>> inverters in my power room. I do not have problems with the Magnum or >>> Outbacks, But the new Bergey 10Kw inverter will set me off when it is >>> running at a specific power level with me working close by. I think in >>> that inverter it is the inductors. >>> >>> I find that is is not the "Sound" but a frequency (non-sound) harmonic >>> that is radiated. I am sure you can use a scope to see this, but a easy >>> way to understand this is to lightly hold a large flat NEO magnet in your >>> cupped hand. Then place your hand close to the DC power feed cables >>> running from the battery bank to your inverter. The magnet will vibrate >>> (resonate) at that inverters frequency. I find that when charging from the >>> inverter or inverting heavy from the battery you can have large amounts of >>> harmonics, and it is interesting to see how much the magnet vibrates in >>> your hand. >>> >>> The suggestion of twisting the
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Michael Gullo wrote: Logan, Wow! Somehow you grossly misinterpreted my intentions on this subject. I meant no disrespect to headache sufferers as I too have had migraines for over 40 years although they are well controlled now. My "long dictations of "other reasons" and "placebo effect" are based on 30+ years of diagnosing and treating comorbid primary and secondary headache disorders which represents tens of thousands of patient visits. The point of my addition to his thread was to bring attention to the more likely causes of this affliction. Many people view this listserve and the people on it as experts. Indeed many are experts in the solar and electrical contracting industry. They bring their vast experience to bear and I listen closely. However, when I saw statements such as "it's definitely sound" or "it's EMF" and labels like "psychosomatic" surfacing, it was time to slow the inverter train down. I and I'm sure many others have been asked at a sales presentation if there are any ill medical effects from inverters. Until there is a peer-reviewed, randomized, double-blind repeatable study to confirm this, the answer is NO. A statement such as "I will say that inverters are a trigger" must be prefaced by "In my opinion", otherwise viewers here may misinterpret it as factual. I am open to the idea that people can be sensitized to a myriad of triggers but more study is needed. I wish there were simple solutions to chronic head pain disorders. Mike Dr. Michael Gullo Solar Solutions LLC OK Mike.I hear ya ! You bring up great points. I will rephrase my opinion on this to say, IF it IS the inverter triggering the headaches It's the sound. Otherwise, I owe you a dollar. OK, I will shut up now. boB - Original Message ----- From: To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? Hi Ron I have been following this thread closely to see what people think about Migraines. As a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) survivor and Migraine sufferer I understand your employees pain! I love the long dictations of "Other Reasons" for the Migraine and talk of placebo effect. Migraines are no joke, and no fun. Triggers for Migraines can be many things, strong perfumes are a good one for me. But I will say that inverters are a trigger also. I have 3 different inverters in my power room. I do not have problems with the Magnum or Outbacks, But the new Bergey 10Kw inverter will set me off when it is running at a specific power level with me working close by. I think in that inverter it is the inductors. I find that is is not the "Sound" but a frequency (non-sound) harmonic that is radiated. I am sure you can use a scope to see this, but a easy way to understand this is to lightly hold a large flat NEO magnet in your cupped hand. Then place your hand close to the DC power feed cables running from the battery bank to your inverter. The magnet will vibrate (resonate) at that inverters frequency. I find that when charging from the inverter or inverting heavy from the battery you can have large amounts of harmonics, and it is interesting to see how much the magnet vibrates in your hand. The suggestion of twisting the cables really helps reduce this! On a side note the Magnum inverter has different harmonics than the Outbacks. So, do you have a place that the employee can move to that is not near the inverter? I think that is the simple solution. Logan Ron Young wrote: Mike, Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT), clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night. Ron Yep, it's gotta be the sound. I'm 95+% sure... If you want to try to tweak things, a decent microphone running into a higher sample rate A/D on a laptop with (96 kHz or 192 kHz) and a program with spectrum analyzer can help to adjust things to possibly quiet it down some. Maybe if you know someone into audio you could have them come over and bring their goodies to help you sorta "see" the sound in the room. Then, you could try tweaking things lik, tightening screws and putting in a baffle or something until that 20 kHz frequency spike comes down, say, 10 or 20+ dB or so. Might just work. But, then again. boB On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: *From: *"Michael Gullo" mailto:mgul...@comcast.net&
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Logan, Wow! Somehow you grossly misinterpreted my intentions on this subject. I meant no disrespect to headache sufferers as I too have had migraines for over 40 years although they are well controlled now. My "long dictations of "other reasons" and "placebo effect" are based on 30+ years of diagnosing and treating comorbid primary and secondary headache disorders which represents tens of thousands of patient visits. The point of my addition to his thread was to bring attention to the more likely causes of this affliction. Many people view this listserve and the people on it as experts. Indeed many are experts in the solar and electrical contracting industry. They bring their vast experience to bear and I listen closely. However, when I saw statements such as "it's definitely sound" or "it's EMF" and labels like "psychosomatic" surfacing, it was time to slow the inverter train down. I and I'm sure many others have been asked at a sales presentation if there are any ill medical effects from inverters. Until there is a peer-reviewed, randomized, double-blind repeatable study to confirm this, the answer is NO. A statement such as "I will say that inverters are a trigger" must be prefaced by "In my opinion", otherwise viewers here may misinterpret it as factual. I am open to the idea that people can be sensitized to a myriad of triggers but more study is needed. I wish there were simple solutions to chronic head pain disorders. Mike Dr. Michael Gullo Solar Solutions LLC - Original Message - From: To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? Hi Ron I have been following this thread closely to see what people think about Migraines. As a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) survivor and Migraine sufferer I understand your employees pain! I love the long dictations of "Other Reasons" for the Migraine and talk of placebo effect. Migraines are no joke, and no fun. Triggers for Migraines can be many things, strong perfumes are a good one for me. But I will say that inverters are a trigger also. I have 3 different inverters in my power room. I do not have problems with the Magnum or Outbacks, But the new Bergey 10Kw inverter will set me off when it is running at a specific power level with me working close by. I think in that inverter it is the inductors. I find that is is not the "Sound" but a frequency (non-sound) harmonic that is radiated. I am sure you can use a scope to see this, but a easy way to understand this is to lightly hold a large flat NEO magnet in your cupped hand. Then place your hand close to the DC power feed cables running from the battery bank to your inverter. The magnet will vibrate (resonate) at that inverters frequency. I find that when charging from the inverter or inverting heavy from the battery you can have large amounts of harmonics, and it is interesting to see how much the magnet vibrates in your hand. The suggestion of twisting the cables really helps reduce this! On a side note the Magnum inverter has different harmonics than the Outbacks. So, do you have a place that the employee can move to that is not near the inverter? I think that is the simple solution. Logan Ron Young wrote: Mike, Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT), clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night. Ron Yep, it's gotta be the sound. I'm 95+% sure... If you want to try to tweak things, a decent microphone running into a higher sample rate A/D on a laptop with (96 kHz or 192 kHz) and a program with spectrum analyzer can help to adjust things to possibly quiet it down some. Maybe if you know someone into audio you could have them come over and bring their goodies to help you sorta "see" the sound in the room. Then, you could try tweaking things lik, tightening screws and putting in a baffle or something until that 20 kHz frequency spike comes down, say, 10 or 20+ dB or so. Might just work. But, then again. boB On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: *From: *"Michael Gullo" mailto:mgul...@comcast.net>> *Date: *February 4, 2010 5:47:56 PM PST (CA) *To: *"RE-wrenches" mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? **Reply-To: *RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Hi Ron and the group,
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
The Bergey 10KW inverter runs at around 7.5 kHz, but is "spread" so that you do not hear one single frequency. I'm betting it really IS the sound, Logan. And, as you say, it comes from the inductors !BIG! inductors at that for the Tier inverter. A microphone and spectrum analyzer will reveal this if you can get ahold or borrow something. The microphone in your laptop and some software will show this. I will look for a freebie, possibly open source piece of software to help diagnose this. Bet you a dollar it's the sound, guys. boB wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com wrote: Hi Ron I have been following this thread closely to see what people think about Migraines. As a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) survivor and Migraine sufferer I understand your employees pain! I love the long dictations of "Other Reasons" for the Migraine and talk of placebo effect. Migraines are no joke, and no fun. Triggers for Migraines can be many things, strong perfumes are a good one for me. But I will say that inverters are a trigger also. I have 3 different inverters in my power room. I do not have problems with the Magnum or Outbacks, But the new Bergey 10Kw inverter will set me off when it is running at a specific power level with me working close by. I think in that inverter it is the inductors. I find that is is not the "Sound" but a frequency (non-sound) harmonic that is radiated. I am sure you can use a scope to see this, but a easy way to understand this is to lightly hold a large flat NEO magnet in your cupped hand. Then place your hand close to the DC power feed cables running from the battery bank to your inverter. The magnet will vibrate (resonate) at that inverters frequency. I find that when charging from the inverter or inverting heavy from the battery you can have large amounts of harmonics, and it is interesting to see how much the magnet vibrates in your hand. The suggestion of twisting the cables really helps reduce this! On a side note the Magnum inverter has different harmonics than the Outbacks. So, do you have a place that the employee can move to that is not near the inverter? I think that is the simple solution. Logan Ron Young wrote: Mike, Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT), clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night. Ron Yep, it's gotta be the sound. I'm 95+% sure... If you want to try to tweak things, a decent microphone running into a higher sample rate A/D on a laptop with (96 kHz or 192 kHz) and a program with spectrum analyzer can help to adjust things to possibly quiet it down some. Maybe if you know someone into audio you could have them come over and bring their goodies to help you sorta "see" the sound in the room. Then, you could try tweaking things lik, tightening screws and putting in a baffle or something until that 20 kHz frequency spike comes down, say, 10 or 20+ dB or so. Might just work. But, then again. boB On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: *From: *"Michael Gullo" mailto:mgul...@comcast.net>> *Date: *February 4, 2010 5:47:56 PM PST (CA) *To: *"RE-wrenches" mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? **Reply-To: *RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Hi Ron and the group, The attribution of negative health effects to exposure to electromagnetic fields or activated electric equipment has not been confirmed in random double-blind provocation studies involving persons reporting hypersensitivity to electricity. Before we accuse are hard-working inverters, let's look at some facts. There are 13 different categories of headaches which are divided into over 129 sub-types. Many people call every headache they experience as migraine when in fact there are specific inclusion criteria to make diagnosis of migraine. The "rubber band tightening around my head" is a classic symptom of tension-type headache. Given a mid 50's female, there are more likely one or more provoking factors: medications, sleep pattern, hormonal replacement therapy, stress (clenching, TMJ), smoker, foods (aged cheese, alcohol, caffeine, chocolate, dairy products, MSGs, etc). Does she work at a computer using a chair with no arms and no lower back support with a monitor slightly higher than eye level? This is an extremely common scenario in which the employee comes to work symptom-free and by 1
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Hi Ron I have been following this thread closely to see what people think about Migraines. As a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) survivor and Migraine sufferer I understand your employees pain! I love the long dictations of "Other Reasons" for the Migraine and talk of placebo effect. Migraines are no joke, and no fun. Triggers for Migraines can be many things, strong perfumes are a good one for me. But I will say that inverters are a trigger also. I have 3 different inverters in my power room. I do not have problems with the Magnum or Outbacks, But the new Bergey 10Kw inverter will set me off when it is running at a specific power level with me working close by. I think in that inverter it is the inductors. I find that is is not the "Sound" but a frequency (non-sound) harmonic that is radiated. I am sure you can use a scope to see this, but a easy way to understand this is to lightly hold a large flat NEO magnet in your cupped hand. Then place your hand close to the DC power feed cables running from the battery bank to your inverter. The magnet will vibrate (resonate) at that inverters frequency. I find that when charging from the inverter or inverting heavy from the battery you can have large amounts of harmonics, and it is interesting to see how much the magnet vibrates in your hand. The suggestion of twisting the cables really helps reduce this! On a side note the Magnum inverter has different harmonics than the Outbacks. So, do you have a place that the employee can move to that is not near the inverter? I think that is the simple solution. Logan > Ron Young wrote: >> Mike, >> >> Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the >> problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT), >> clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me >> wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two >> minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at >> quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes >> but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night. >> >> Ron > > Yep, it's gotta be the sound. I'm 95+% sure... > >If you want to try to tweak things, a decent microphone running into > a higher sample > rate A/D on a laptop with (96 kHz or 192 kHz) and a program with > spectrum analyzer can help > to adjust things to possibly quiet it down some. Maybe if you know > someone into audio you could > have them come over and bring their goodies to help you sorta "see" the > sound in the room. > > Then, you could try tweaking things lik, tightening screws and putting > in a baffle or > something until that 20 kHz frequency spike comes down, say, 10 or 20+ > dB or so. > > Might just work. But, then again. > boB > > > >> >> On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote: >> >>> forwarded from earth2 >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> *From: *"Michael Gullo" >>> <mailto:mgul...@comcast.net>> >>>> *Date: *February 4, 2010 5:47:56 PM PST (CA) >>>> *To: *"RE-wrenches" >>> <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> >>>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? >>>> **Reply-To: *RE-wrenches >>> <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> >>>> >>>> Hi Ron and the group, >>>> >>>> The attribution of negative health effects to exposure to >>>> electromagnetic fields or activated electric equipment has not been >>>> confirmed in random double-blind provocation studies involving >>>> persons reporting hypersensitivity to electricity. Before we accuse >>>> are hard-working inverters, let's look at some facts. There are 13 >>>> different categories of headaches which are divided into over 129 >>>> sub-types. Many people call every headache they experience as >>>> migraine when in fact there are specific inclusion criteria to make >>>> diagnosis of migraine. The "rubber band tightening around my head" >>>> is a classic symptom of tension-type headache. Given a mid 50's >>>> female, there are more likely one or more provoking factors: >>>> medications, sleep pattern, hormonal replacement therapy, stress >>>> (clenching, TMJ), smoker, foods (aged cheese, alcohol, caffeine, >>>> chocolate, dairy products, MSGs, etc). Does she work at a computer >>>> using a chair with no arms and no lower back support with a monitor >>>> slightly higher than eye level
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Ron Young wrote: Mike, Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT), clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night. Ron Yep, it's gotta be the sound. I'm 95+% sure... If you want to try to tweak things, a decent microphone running into a higher sample rate A/D on a laptop with (96 kHz or 192 kHz) and a program with spectrum analyzer can help to adjust things to possibly quiet it down some. Maybe if you know someone into audio you could have them come over and bring their goodies to help you sorta "see" the sound in the room. Then, you could try tweaking things lik, tightening screws and putting in a baffle or something until that 20 kHz frequency spike comes down, say, 10 or 20+ dB or so. Might just work. But, then again. boB On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: *From: *"Michael Gullo" <mailto:mgul...@comcast.net>> *Date: *February 4, 2010 5:47:56 PM PST (CA) *To: *"RE-wrenches" <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? **Reply-To: *RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Hi Ron and the group, The attribution of negative health effects to exposure to electromagnetic fields or activated electric equipment has not been confirmed in random double-blind provocation studies involving persons reporting hypersensitivity to electricity. Before we accuse are hard-working inverters, let's look at some facts. There are 13 different categories of headaches which are divided into over 129 sub-types. Many people call every headache they experience as migraine when in fact there are specific inclusion criteria to make diagnosis of migraine. The "rubber band tightening around my head" is a classic symptom of tension-type headache. Given a mid 50's female, there are more likely one or more provoking factors: medications, sleep pattern, hormonal replacement therapy, stress (clenching, TMJ), smoker, foods (aged cheese, alcohol, caffeine, chocolate, dairy products, MSGs, etc). Does she work at a computer using a chair with no arms and no lower back support with a monitor slightly higher than eye level? This is an extremely common scenario in which the employee comes to work symptom-free and by 12 or 1:00 develops a headache or neck ache. If she really wants some answers, she will need to keep a headache diary for several weeks and seek professional help. You could cycle the inverter on/off to see if there is a direct correlation between the incidence of the headaches and runtime of the inverter. BTW, the placebo effect, as mentioned in other emails, is between 40-60% effective at resolving symptoms. Hope this helps a bit. Mike Michael Gullo Solar Solutions LLC Marlton, NJ NABCEP Certified PV Installer T Diplomate American Board of Orofacial Pain - Original Message - From: "Ron Young" mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com>> To: "RE-wrenches" <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? Bob, Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and has very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think there's a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I wanted to find out if there were other instances of people experiencing distress from inverter operation just to rule out the possibility -or take it into account. I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to environmental influences but this inverter is quiet, just the usual fan sound occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound of an ultrasonic alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's - now I just hear ringing in my ears. Ron On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: Dan Fink said: "That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation" I'm betting that it's sound. Remember how you could hear televisions singing away at 15 kHz ?? That still gives some people headaches. How old is this customer ?? I'm guessing he's young because it's most likely because he can hear the inverter switching.We just can't normally hear them The FX/VFX inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still hear. Especially younger ones wit
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Mike, Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT), clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night. Ron On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: From: "Michael Gullo" Date: February 4, 2010 5:47:56 PM PST (CA) To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? Reply-To: RE-wrenches Hi Ron and the group, The attribution of negative health effects to exposure to electromagnetic fields or activated electric equipment has not been confirmed in random double-blind provocation studies involving persons reporting hypersensitivity to electricity. Before we accuse are hard-working inverters, let's look at some facts. There are 13 different categories of headaches which are divided into over 129 sub-types. Many people call every headache they experience as migraine when in fact there are specific inclusion criteria to make diagnosis of migraine. The "rubber band tightening around my head" is a classic symptom of tension-type headache. Given a mid 50's female, there are more likely one or more provoking factors: medications, sleep pattern, hormonal replacement therapy, stress (clenching, TMJ), smoker, foods (aged cheese, alcohol, caffeine, chocolate, dairy products, MSGs, etc). Does she work at a computer using a chair with no arms and no lower back support with a monitor slightly higher than eye level? This is an extremely common scenario in which the employee comes to work symptom-free and by 12 or 1:00 develops a headache or neck ache. If she really wants some answers, she will need to keep a headache diary for several weeks and seek professional help. You could cycle the inverter on/off to see if there is a direct correlation between the incidence of the headaches and runtime of the inverter. BTW, the placebo effect, as mentioned in other emails, is between 40-60% effective at resolving symptoms. Hope this helps a bit. Mike Michael Gullo Solar Solutions LLC Marlton, NJ NABCEP Certified PV Installer T Diplomate American Board of Orofacial Pain - Original Message - From: "Ron Young" > To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? Bob, Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and has very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think there's a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I wanted to find out if there were other instances of people experiencing distress from inverter operation just to rule out the possibility -or take it into account. I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to environmental influences but this inverter is quiet, just the usual fan sound occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound of an ultrasonic alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's - now I just hear ringing in my ears. Ron On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: Dan Fink said: "That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation" I'm betting that it's sound. Remember how you could hear televisions singing away at 15 kHz ?? That still gives some people headaches. How old is this customer ?? I'm guessing he's young because it's most likely because he can hear the inverter switching.We just can't normally hear them The FX/VFX inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still hear. Especially younger ones with better hearing. It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a speaker/ transducer. High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond well to a thin wall of padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house or cabin. That should help reduce the acoustical output. boB Dan Fink wrote: Joel -- Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was mounted right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's bed. They finally had to have it moved--mostly because of buzzing, but EMF was a concern too. It was basically less than a foot from the guy's pillow. Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive EMF meters available from the same places that sell DIY shielding materials. The biggest sour
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Hi Ron and the group, The attribution of negative health effects to exposure to electromagnetic fields or activated electric equipment has not been confirmed in random double-blind provocation studies involving persons reporting hypersensitivity to electricity. Before we accuse are hard-working inverters, let's look at some facts. There are 13 different categories of headaches which are divided into over 129 sub-types. Many people call every headache they experience as migraine when in fact there are specific inclusion criteria to make diagnosis of migraine. The "rubber band tightening around my head" is a classic symptom of tension-type headache. Given a mid 50's female, there are more likely one or more provoking factors: medications, sleep pattern, hormonal replacement therapy, stress (clenching, TMJ), smoker, foods (aged cheese, alcohol, caffeine, chocolate, dairy products, MSGs, etc). Does she work at a computer using a chair with no arms and no lower back support with a monitor slightly higher than eye level? This is an extremely common scenario in which the employee comes to work symptom-free and by 12 or 1:00 develops a headache or neck ache. If she really wants some answers, she will need to keep a headache diary for several weeks and seek professional help. You could cycle the inverter on/off to see if there is a direct correlation between the incidence of the headaches and runtime of the inverter. BTW, the placebo effect, as mentioned in other emails, is between 40-60% effective at resolving symptoms. Hope this helps a bit. Mike Michael Gullo Solar Solutions LLC Marlton, NJ NABCEP Certified PV Installer T Diplomate American Board of Orofacial Pain - Original Message - From: "Ron Young" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? Bob, Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and has very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think there's a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I wanted to find out if there were other instances of people experiencing distress from inverter operation just to rule out the possibility -or take it into account. I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to environmental influences but this inverter is quiet, just the usual fan sound occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound of an ultrasonic alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's - now I just hear ringing in my ears. Ron On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: Dan Fink said: "That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation" I'm betting that it's sound. Remember how you could hear televisions singing away at 15 kHz ?? That still gives some people headaches. How old is this customer ?? I'm guessing he's young because it's most likely because he can hear the inverter switching.We just can't normally hear them The FX/VFX inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still hear. Especially younger ones with better hearing. It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a speaker/ transducer. High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond well to a thin wall of padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house or cabin. That should help reduce the acoustical output. boB Dan Fink wrote: Joel -- Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was mounted right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's bed. They finally had to have it moved--mostly because of buzzing, but EMF was a concern too. It was basically less than a foot from the guy's pillow. Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive EMF meters available from the same places that sell DIY shielding materials. The biggest source of EMF at *my* house is actually the E-Meter measuring amp-hours. It even interferes with my handheld ham and fire department radio FM communications on 2 meter. DAN FINK Renewable Energy Consultant Joel Davidson wrote: Ron, Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have current flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that drop off rapidly proportional to the distance from the source. Inverters, transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors, clock radios, power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour meters, service panels all emit EMF. There is no practical way to block EMF. It passes through almost everything including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety standard for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous and 2.5 milligauss or less is safe. I went through our home
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Just to update the list, as of this morning there was no news that Walt has been found. I promise to notify the list as soon as there is any news. I have been following this fairly closely. I want to leave this off-list, so if you have any questions please contact me off list. Bob-O Schultze wrote at 10:54 AM 2/4/2010: >On another note, anyone heard anything new about Walt Ratterman? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Perhaps check with an audiologist to see if they have portable equipment they could test the area with. I know I USED to be able to hear over 20K HZ when I was 18 and lots of things drove me nuts, now I just am hearing less thanks to all the tools and forgetting to use hearing protection and oh yeah music... Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc www.solarwork.com E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:20 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? Bob, Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and has very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think there's a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I wanted to find out if there were other instances of people experiencing distress from inverter operation just to rule out the possibility -or take it into account. I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to environmental influences but this inverter is quiet, just the usual fan sound occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound of an ultrasonic alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's - now I just hear ringing in my ears. Ron On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: > > Dan Fink said: > > "That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for > what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation" > > I'm betting that it's sound. Remember how you could hear > televisions singing > away at 15 kHz ?? That still gives some people headaches. > > How old is this customer ?? I'm guessing he's young because it's > most likely because he > can hear the inverter switching.We just can't normally hear > them The FX/VFX > inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still hear. > Especially younger ones > with better hearing. > > It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a speaker/ > transducer. > > High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond well > to a thin wall of > padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house or > cabin. > That should help reduce the acoustical output. > > boB > > > > > > > Dan Fink wrote: >> Joel -- >> Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a >> really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was mounted >> right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's bed. They >> finally had to have it moved--mostly because of buzzing, but EMF >> was a concern too. It was basically less than a foot from the guy's >> pillow. >> >> Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive EMF >> meters available from the same places that sell DIY shielding >> materials. >> >> The biggest source of EMF at *my* house is actually the E-Meter >> measuring amp-hours. It even interferes with my handheld ham and >> fire department radio FM communications on 2 meter. >> >> DAN FINK >> Renewable Energy Consultant >> >> >> >> >> Joel Davidson wrote: >>> Ron, >>> >>> Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have current >>> flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that drop off >>> rapidly proportional to the distance from the source. Inverters, >>> transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors, clock radios, >>> power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour meters, service >>> panels all emit EMF. There is no >>> practical way to block EMF. It passes through almost everything >>> including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety standard >>> for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous and 2.5 >>> milligauss or less is safe. >>> >>> I went through our home about 10 years ago using a borrowed >>> milligauss meter (thanks David Katz). Our utility meter service >>> had significant EMF, but that was not a problem since it is >>> mounted on an outside wall and there is a closet between the >>> living space and the meter. The EMF had fallen to below 2 >>> milligauss between the wall and the closet door. The bedroom clock >>> radio was the second largest EMF source in our home. Moving the >>> clock 1 foot away from the bed to the other side of the night >>> stand br
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Many years ago, Richard Perez and I built a Gauss meter just for that purpose. What we found (with the old Trace "U" series inverters) was that while EMF was very high on the cables and right at the inverter, six feet or so away, the readings were at nearly background levels. Never tried that with a "modern" inverter. Could be different, I reckon, and I think that say... a 4KW inverter would have more EMF than a 2KW job, but I suspect that the distance to background levels would be about the same. Doesn't mean that someone couldn't be super sensitive to them and have issues, but unless your inverter is under the bed, most folks shouldn't have any danger. On another note, anyone heard anything new about Walt Ratterman? Bob-O On Feb 4, 2010, at 6:49 AM, robert ellison wrote: At a minimum twist the wires in the conduit. PVC or metal. Bob 2010/2/4 Richard L Ratico Hi Ron, One of our clients claims to be "sensitive" to exposure to EMR. I was initially sceptical, but have come to believe that considerable variation exists in the way individuals react. In our case the objection was to a wireless modem. Sensitivity to high frequency audio is likewise variable among individuals. By the way, are your heavy DC cables between the batteries and inverter all enclosed in grounded metal raceway? It's often tempting to avoid this detail, particularly in a system set up on a temporary basis. Please keep us posted. Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Bob, Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and has very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think there's a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I wanted to find out if there were other instances of people experiencing distress from inverter operation just to rule out the possibility -or take it into account. I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to environmental influences but this inverter is quiet, just the usual fan sound occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound of an ultrasonic alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's - now I just hear ringing in my ears. Ron On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: Dan Fink said: "That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation" I'm betting that it's sound. Remember how you could hear televisions singing away at 15 kHz ?? That still gives some people headaches. How old is this customer ?? I'm guessing he's young because it's most likely because he can hear the inverter switching.We just can't normally hear them The FX/VFX inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still hear. Especially younger ones with better hearing. It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a speaker/ transducer. High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond well to a thin wall of padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house or cabin. That should help reduce the acoustical output. boB Dan Fink wrote: Joel -- Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was mounted right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's bed. They finally had to have it moved--mostly because of buzzing, but EMF was a concern too. It was basically less than a foot from the guy's pillow. Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive EMF meters available from the same places that sell DIY shielding materials. The biggest source of EMF at *my* house is actually the E-Meter measuring amp-hours. It even interferes with my handheld ham and fire department radio FM communications on 2 meter. DAN FINK Renewable Energy Consultant Joel Davidson wrote: Ron, Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have current flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that drop off rapidly proportional to the distance from the source. Inverters, transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors, clock radios, power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour meters, service panels all emit EMF. There is no practical way to block EMF. It passes through almost everything including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety standard for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous and 2.5 milligauss or less is safe. I went through our home about 10 years ago using a borrowed milligauss meter (thanks David Katz). Our utility meter service had significant EMF, but that was not a problem since it is mounted on an outside wall and there is a closet between the living space and the meter. The EMF had fallen to below 2 milligauss between the wall and the closet door. The bedroom clock radio was the second largest EMF source in our home. Moving the clock 1 foot away from the bed to the other side of the night stand brought the EMF levels under 2 milligauss. Our SW4048 inverter emitted a field that fell to a safe level 2 feet from the inverter. I tell people not to put their bed against the wall where their utility service panel or inverter is mounted. I also tell them that the Japanese did a 2 year study of school children riding the Tokyo subway (big EMF emitter) and found that there was no danger. Some sounds that most of us take for granted can cause physical discomfort and even pain. SW4048 and other transformer and electrical and electronic buzzing can be annoying. Also certain wavelengths and intensities of light can cause pain and injury. Joel Davidson ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
At a minimum twist the wires in the conduit. PVC or metal. Bob 2010/2/4 Richard L Ratico > Hi Ron, > > One of our clients claims to be "sensitive" to exposure to EMR. I was > initially > sceptical, but have come to believe that considerable variation exists in > the > way individuals react. > In our case the objection was to a wireless modem. > > Sensitivity to high frequency audio is likewise variable among individuals. > > By the way, are your heavy DC cables between the batteries and inverter all > enclosed in grounded metal raceway? It's often tempting to avoid this > detail, > particularly in a system set up > on a temporary basis. Please keep us posted. > > Dick Ratico > Solarwind Electric > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Hi Ron, One of our clients claims to be "sensitive" to exposure to EMR. I was initially sceptical, but have come to believe that considerable variation exists in the way individuals react. In our case the objection was to a wireless modem. Sensitivity to high frequency audio is likewise variable among individuals. By the way, are your heavy DC cables between the batteries and inverter all enclosed in grounded metal raceway? It's often tempting to avoid this detail, particularly in a system set up on a temporary basis. Please keep us posted. Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Dan Fink said: "That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation" I'm betting that it's sound. Remember how you could hear televisions singing away at 15 kHz ?? That still gives some people headaches. How old is this customer ?? I'm guessing he's young because it's most likely because he can hear the inverter switching.We just can't normally hear them The FX/VFX inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still hear. Especially younger ones with better hearing. It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a speaker/transducer. High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond well to a thin wall of padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house or cabin. That should help reduce the acoustical output. boB Dan Fink wrote: Joel -- Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was mounted right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's bed. They finally had to have it moved--mostly because of buzzing, but EMF was a concern too. It was basically less than a foot from the guy's pillow. Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive EMF meters available from the same places that sell DIY shielding materials. The biggest source of EMF at *my* house is actually the E-Meter measuring amp-hours. It even interferes with my handheld ham and fire department radio FM communications on 2 meter. DAN FINK Renewable Energy Consultant Joel Davidson wrote: Ron, Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have current flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that drop off rapidly proportional to the distance from the source. Inverters, transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors, clock radios, power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour meters, service panels all emit EMF. There is no practical way to block EMF. It passes through almost everything including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety standard for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous and 2.5 milligauss or less is safe. I went through our home about 10 years ago using a borrowed milligauss meter (thanks David Katz). Our utility meter service had significant EMF, but that was not a problem since it is mounted on an outside wall and there is a closet between the living space and the meter. The EMF had fallen to below 2 milligauss between the wall and the closet door. The bedroom clock radio was the second largest EMF source in our home. Moving the clock 1 foot away from the bed to the other side of the night stand brought the EMF levels under 2 milligauss. Our SW4048 inverter emitted a field that fell to a safe level 2 feet from the inverter. I tell people not to put their bed against the wall where their utility service panel or inverter is mounted. I also tell them that the Japanese did a 2 year study of school children riding the Tokyo subway (big EMF emitter) and found that there was no danger. Some sounds that most of us take for granted can cause physical discomfort and even pain. SW4048 and other transformer and electrical and electronic buzzing can be annoying. Also certain wavelengths and intensities of light can cause pain and injury. Joel Davidson ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Joel -- Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was mounted right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's bed. They finally had to have it moved--mostly because of buzzing, but EMF was a concern too. It was basically less than a foot from the guy's pillow. Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive EMF meters available from the same places that sell DIY shielding materials. The biggest source of EMF at *my* house is actually the E-Meter measuring amp-hours. It even interferes with my handheld ham and fire department radio FM communications on 2 meter. DAN FINK Renewable Energy Consultant Joel Davidson wrote: Ron, Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have current flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that drop off rapidly proportional to the distance from the source. Inverters, transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors, clock radios, power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour meters, service panels all emit EMF. There is no practical way to block EMF. It passes through almost everything including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety standard for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous and 2.5 milligauss or less is safe. I went through our home about 10 years ago using a borrowed milligauss meter (thanks David Katz). Our utility meter service had significant EMF, but that was not a problem since it is mounted on an outside wall and there is a closet between the living space and the meter. The EMF had fallen to below 2 milligauss between the wall and the closet door. The bedroom clock radio was the second largest EMF source in our home. Moving the clock 1 foot away from the bed to the other side of the night stand brought the EMF levels under 2 milligauss. Our SW4048 inverter emitted a field that fell to a safe level 2 feet from the inverter. I tell people not to put their bed against the wall where their utility service panel or inverter is mounted. I also tell them that the Japanese did a 2 year study of school children riding the Tokyo subway (big EMF emitter) and found that there was no danger. Some sounds that most of us take for granted can cause physical discomfort and even pain. SW4048 and other transformer and electrical and electronic buzzing can be annoying. Also certain wavelengths and intensities of light can cause pain and injury. Joel Davidson ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Ron, Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have current flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that drop off rapidly proportional to the distance from the source. Inverters, transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors, clock radios, power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour meters, service panels all emit EMF. There is no practical way to block EMF. It passes through almost everything including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety standard for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous and 2.5 milligauss or less is safe. I went through our home about 10 years ago using a borrowed milligauss meter (thanks David Katz). Our utility meter service had significant EMF, but that was not a problem since it is mounted on an outside wall and there is a closet between the living space and the meter. The EMF had fallen to below 2 milligauss between the wall and the closet door. The bedroom clock radio was the second largest EMF source in our home. Moving the clock 1 foot away from the bed to the other side of the night stand brought the EMF levels under 2 milligauss. Our SW4048 inverter emitted a field that fell to a safe level 2 feet from the inverter. I tell people not to put their bed against the wall where their utility service panel or inverter is mounted. I also tell them that the Japanese did a 2 year study of school children riding the Tokyo subway (big EMF emitter) and found that there was no danger. Some sounds that most of us take for granted can cause physical discomfort and even pain. SW4048 and other transformer and electrical and electronic buzzing can be annoying. Also certain wavelengths and intensities of light can cause pain and injury. Joel Davidson Ron Young wrote: I have a staff member that has begun complaining recently of feeling like a "rubber band was tightening around my head" and of migraines when we turn on an inverter. We have set up an Outback 3524 inverter in our store and it is charging a set of batteries. Whenever she complained we shut it off. It is creating a complicated situation and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this? We have customers that live in one room cabins with these inverters and have never had a complaint of this nature. No one else on staff has any problem with this. Her work area is situated 25' away from the inverter. Ron Young earthRight Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Hello Ron -- That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation. Assuming the inverter is silent, it must be EMF. Look into this and it quickly takes you to the world of pseudo-science, with all kinds of expensive gadgets to 'protect' you from EMF, their workings explained using words that don't appear in any science curriculum. Applied kinesiology is pretty fringe, too. Here's all the NIOSH research on EMF health effects: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/EMF/ If this becomes a big problem, I would look into hiring an industrial hygenist to measure EMF in your office. You could also look into shielding the inverter, there are products out there for shielding from EMF that really do work. I fight pseudo-science everywhere I see it, but you can't discount your employee's complaints. All the 'official' medical studies say low-intensity EMF has no proven health effects. But I doubt any of them studied the particular inverter you have. So, basically, nobody knows! Shielding just might eliminate the problem. You can even buy DIY shielding kits. And as Bill said, the placebo effect might help too. DAN FINK Renewable Energy Consultant Ron Young wrote: I have a staff member that has begun complaining recently of feeling like a "rubber band was tightening around my head" and of migraines when we turn on an inverter. We have set up an Outback 3524 inverter in our store and it is charging a set of batteries. Whenever she complained we shut it off. It is creating a complicated situation and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this? We have customers that live in one room cabins with these inverters and have never had a complaint of this nature. No one else on staff has any problem with this. Her work area is situated 25' away from the inverter. Ron Young earthRight Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Ron, the old inverters with heavy magnetic cores emitted some fairly strong EMF, and while I have never been concerned about them, those who are can build a grounded Faraday cage around them which will shield everything outside the cage. The size of the mesh corresponds to the length of the wave intercepted. If nothing else, your employee might benefit from the placebo effect. Bill Dorsett SunwrightS 1715 Leavenworth Manhattan, KS 66502 Home/Office 785/539=1956 Cell 785/564-2583 wmdors...@sbcglobal.net See Amory Lovins July 08 on Charlie Rose http://www.charlierose.com/guests/amory-lovins --- On Wed, 2/3/10, Ron Young wrote: From: Ron Young Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine? To: "RE-wrenches" Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 7:38 PM I have a staff member that has begun complaining recently of feeling like a "rubber band was tightening around my head" and of migraines when we turn on an inverter. We have set up an Outback 3524 inverter in our store and it is charging a set of batteries. Whenever she complained we shut it off. It is creating a complicated situation and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this? We have customers that live in one room cabins with these inverters and have never had a complaint of this nature. No one else on staff has any problem with this. Her work area is situated 25' away from the inverter. Ron Young earthRight Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Ron, Many people are becoming sensitive to all of the environmental assaults that we are subjected to on a daily basis. This staff member may be sensitized even though no one else appears outwardly affected. If you know anyone who does kinesiology, you can have them test this person for this. Larry Brown Sun Mountain On Feb 3, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Ron Young wrote: I have a staff member that has begun complaining recently of feeling like a "rubber band was tightening around my head" and of migraines when we turn on an inverter. We have set up an Outback 3524 inverter in our store and it is charging a set of batteries. Whenever she complained we shut it off. It is creating a complicated situation and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this? We have customers that live in one room cabins with these inverters and have never had a complaint of this nature. No one else on staff has any problem with this. Her work area is situated 25' away from the inverter. Ron Young earthRight Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
I have a staff member that has begun complaining recently of feeling like a "rubber band was tightening around my head" and of migraines when we turn on an inverter. We have set up an Outback 3524 inverter in our store and it is charging a set of batteries. Whenever she complained we shut it off. It is creating a complicated situation and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this? We have customers that live in one room cabins with these inverters and have never had a complaint of this nature. No one else on staff has any problem with this. Her work area is situated 25' away from the inverter. Ron Young earthRight Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
