Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Dave Tedeyan]

Thank you all for your suggestions, support and shared experiences. I have
no resolution
at the moment, but will plan to update everyone with what I find out.
Moving forward, I am
planning to look into noise on the AC side, as well as continue to look for
patterns in terms
of days, time, and conditions for the faults.

I know that the inverters have fairly recent firmware (2.62.30R) but SMA is
soon to push new
firmware to their -22 inverters. I already have the update and can install
it next time I am there.
It will be interesting to see if new firmware will have any effect.

Cheers,
Dave


*--*


*Dave Tedeyan*
*Project Engineer*

*Taitem Engineering, PC*
109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:40 AM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote:

> Dave,
>
>
>
> It is particularly interesting that you have two inverters with
> intermittent arc faults. I’ve been following this thread, and agree that
> looking for noise on the AC side makes sense. Definitely update firmware
> too!
>
>
>
> That said, I thought I’d share a recent arc-fault story to this list. We
> had a very persistent arc fault occur about a year ago. We replaced the
> inverter, checked all DC-side wiring over and over, and could not find
> anything. The arc fault intermittently persisted. The client had a big
> fountain pump so we thought maybe that was the culprit. After a couple of
> months of troubleshooting we disabled arc fault detection and everything
> ran fine for about a year or so. Then, the client called us up and decided
> to expand his system. We added a few panels to the roof and rewired all the
> DC strings. During this process one of our installers found a melted MC4
> connector:
>
>
>
> https://goo.gl/photos/SR2ApXmoPcRcLZQu8
>
>
>
> So, it turns out that we had a real arc fault after all! We had checked
> the MC4 connections over a year ago and did not find this connector
> assembly issue – apparently the terminal wasn’t fully seated into the
> connector. In all fairness, it would not be easy to see whether the
> connector was seated properly if the arcing wasn’t bad enough to show signs
> of wear. We are giving our crews regular safety talks and training on all
> sorts of splices and proper MC4 assembly methods to avoid arc-faults and
> loose connection issues. It takes a lot of persistence.
>
>
>
> August
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:14 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
> faulting:
>
>
>
> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
>
> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
> inverter.
>
> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
> (indoors)
>
> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
>
> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
>
> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
> transfer switch
>
> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed
> in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>
>
>
> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
>
> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
> sometimes less.
>
>
>
> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
> two different people.
>
> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
>
> -We have replaced all home runs.
>
> -We have replaced both inverters.
>
> -Arc faults are still happening.
>
> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>
>
>
> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
>
> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *--*
>
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
>
> *Project Engineer*
>
>
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
>
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
>
> www.taitem.com
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@list

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[August Goers]

Dave,



It is particularly interesting that you have two inverters with
intermittent arc faults. I’ve been following this thread, and agree that
looking for noise on the AC side makes sense. Definitely update firmware
too!



That said, I thought I’d share a recent arc-fault story to this list. We
had a very persistent arc fault occur about a year ago. We replaced the
inverter, checked all DC-side wiring over and over, and could not find
anything. The arc fault intermittently persisted. The client had a big
fountain pump so we thought maybe that was the culprit. After a couple of
months of troubleshooting we disabled arc fault detection and everything
ran fine for about a year or so. Then, the client called us up and decided
to expand his system. We added a few panels to the roof and rewired all the
DC strings. During this process one of our installers found a melted MC4
connector:



https://goo.gl/photos/SR2ApXmoPcRcLZQu8



So, it turns out that we had a real arc fault after all! We had checked the
MC4 connections over a year ago and did not find this connector assembly
issue – apparently the terminal wasn’t fully seated into the connector. In
all fairness, it would not be easy to see whether the connector was seated
properly if the arcing wasn’t bad enough to show signs of wear. We are
giving our crews regular safety talks and training on all sorts of splices
and proper MC4 assembly methods to avoid arc-faults and loose connection
issues. It takes a lot of persistence.



August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan
*Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:14 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault



Hi All,



Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
faulting:



-There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.

-3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
inverter.

-Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
(indoors)

-Simple grid connected system, no batteries.

-There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.

-We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
transfer switch

-There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed
in April, but the generator fires up weekly.



-The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.

-The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
sometimes less.



-We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
two different people.

-We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)

-We have replaced all home runs.

-We have replaced both inverters.

-Arc faults are still happening.

-Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.



I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?

Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?



Thanks for your help,

Dave



*--*



*Dave Tedeyan*

*Project Engineer*



*Taitem Engineering, PC*

109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850

Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121

www.taitem.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[jerrysgarage01]

DaveDid you make your MC Cables, are there any jumpers used, l have seen 
crimped terminals cause faults and over time will overheat and fail open. Just 
a thought.Jerry


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Matthew Sirum <matthewsi...@gmail.com> 
Date: 11/14/16  1:07 AM  (GMT-10:00) 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: [RE-wrenches]  SMA Arc-Fault 

Greetings Dave,

Have you considered possibly installing a hybrid type transient
voltage surge suppressor (TVSS), to include filters to remove high
frequency EMI/RFI?  Or possible a straight line filter device?  If
this nuisance arc fault issue is still occurring and it may be related
to an AC issue you may be able to get some technical help and advice
from an engineer at one of the TVSS manufacturers such as Total
Protection Solutions, Richmond, VA 800.647.1911 or Surge Suppression
Incorporated, Destin, FL 888.987.8877.  I would also recommend
reaching out for an application engineer in the SPD division at Eaton.
Eaton Technical Resource Center 800.809.2772.  SSI also has a very
experienced field troubleshooting technician they send all around the
country to help contractors with difficult electrical issues... Of
course that would probably cost $1000-$2000 per day.

I avoid using piercing taps and connectors.  I prefer to use service
entrance tap boxes, insulated multi port connectors, or line side
rated power distribution blocks.  I cannot help but wonder if there
may be an actual arc event occurring at one or more of the piercing
taps which is somehow picked up by the DC AFCI.  In commissioning this
system it would be a good idea to use a non-contact IR thermometer
and/or thermal imaging camera/scope to check the piercing taps for
excessive heating while the conductors are energized and carrying peak
currents.

I hope you are successful in resolving this issue soon.  I will
continue to follow the thread.  Hopefully we can all learn something
from this.

Best regards,

MATT

Matthew Sirum
P.O. Box 1227
Greenfield, MA 01302-1227  USA
phone: +1.413.773.0611
email: matthewsi...@gmail.com
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[RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Matthew Sirum]

Greetings Dave,

Have you considered possibly installing a hybrid type transient
voltage surge suppressor (TVSS), to include filters to remove high
frequency EMI/RFI?  Or possible a straight line filter device?  If
this nuisance arc fault issue is still occurring and it may be related
to an AC issue you may be able to get some technical help and advice
from an engineer at one of the TVSS manufacturers such as Total
Protection Solutions, Richmond, VA 800.647.1911 or Surge Suppression
Incorporated, Destin, FL 888.987.8877.  I would also recommend
reaching out for an application engineer in the SPD division at Eaton.
Eaton Technical Resource Center 800.809.2772.  SSI also has a very
experienced field troubleshooting technician they send all around the
country to help contractors with difficult electrical issues... Of
course that would probably cost $1000-$2000 per day.

I avoid using piercing taps and connectors.  I prefer to use service
entrance tap boxes, insulated multi port connectors, or line side
rated power distribution blocks.  I cannot help but wonder if there
may be an actual arc event occurring at one or more of the piercing
taps which is somehow picked up by the DC AFCI.  In commissioning this
system it would be a good idea to use a non-contact IR thermometer
and/or thermal imaging camera/scope to check the piercing taps for
excessive heating while the conductors are energized and carrying peak
currents.

I hope you are successful in resolving this issue soon.  I will
continue to follow the thread.  Hopefully we can all learn something
from this.

Best regards,

MATT

Matthew Sirum
P.O. Box 1227
Greenfield, MA 01302-1227  USA
phone: +1.413.773.0611
email: matthewsi...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Chris Mason]

You can use a Fluke 435 series, it will reveal any harmonics and record the
energy levels for each harmonic. It has a scope feature. You can rent one
pretty cheaply and record 24 hours of data. I can send you a sample report
from mine if you want.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Howie,
> Yes, we have actually already replaced both inverters on site and the
> issues are still happening. At this point I doubt that we could have
> gotten 4 units with faulty arc fault sensors...
>
> Drake,
> I am beginning to think that it may be some noise from the utility.
> Would you know of a way to test for this? eGague unit maybe?
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Drake  redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
>
>> Electrical noise coming in from the utility side can also cause an arc
>> fault code.
>>
>> At 07:32 AM 11/11/2016, you wrote:
>>
>> This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers
>> nearby.
>>
>> As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point
>> are in the same area.
>> There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is
>> connected to,Â
>> including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming
>> from the array to the inverters.Â
>> The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding
>> electrode system.
>>
>> Jerry,
>> The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to
>> check firmware.
>> As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned,
>> although there
>> may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for
>> heating, but they
>> say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also
>> the generator...
>>
>> Thanks for your recommendations.
>> -Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Dave Tedeyan*
>> Project Engineer
>>
>>
>> *Taitem Engineering, PC *109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>> Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121 
>> www.taitem.com
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer > > wrote:
>> Dave.
>> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when
>> they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest,
>> last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn
>> off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if
>> you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system
>> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that
>> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have
>> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue.
>> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and
>> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the
>> problem and it can be either AC or DC.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
>> wrote:
>> Hi All,Â
>>
>> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
>> faulting:
>>
>> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
>> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
>> inverter.
>> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
>> (indoors)
>> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
>> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
>> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
>> transfer switch
>> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was
>> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>>
>> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
>> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
>> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
>> sometimes less.
>>
>> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
>> two different people.
>> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
>> -We have replaced all home runs.
>> -We have replaced both inverters.
>> -Arc faults are still happening.
>> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>>
>> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?Â
>> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>>
>> Thanks for your help,
>> Dave
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dave Tedeyan
>> Project Engineer
>>
>> Taitem Engineering, PC
>> 109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>> Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121 
>>
>> www.taitem.com
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[William Miller]

Dave:



E-gauge will not test for line noise.  You need a power quality monitor.
The cheapest one and the only one I have used is the Fluke VR1710.



William





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan
*Sent:* Sunday, November 13, 2016 5:37 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault



Howie,

Yes, we have actually already replaced both inverters on site and the

issues are still happening. At this point I doubt that we could have

gotten 4 units with faulty arc fault sensors...



Drake,

I am beginning to think that it may be some noise from the utility.

Would you know of a way to test for this? eGague unit maybe?



Cheers,

Dave






*--*



*Dave Tedeyan*

*Project Engineer*



*Taitem Engineering, PC*

109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850

Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121

www.taitem.com



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Drake <
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

Electrical noise coming in from the utility side can also cause an arc
fault code.

At 07:32 AM 11/11/2016, you wrote:

This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby.

As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point are
in the same area.
There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is
connected to,Â
including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming
from the array to the inverters.Â
The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding electrode
system.

Jerry,
The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to
check firmware.
As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned,
although there
may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for
heating, but they
say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also
the generator...

Thanks for your recommendations.
-Dave





*--Dave Tedeyan*
Project Engineer


*Taitem Engineering, PC*109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121 
www.taitem.com

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com >
wrote:

Dave.

We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when they
are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, last
I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn off
the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if you
do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system
with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that
brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have
had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue.
Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and
as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the
problem and it can be either AC or DC.

Jerry



On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan <dtede...@taitem.com> wrote:

Hi All,Â

Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
faulting:

-There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.

-3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
inverter.

-Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
(indoors)

-Simple grid connected system, no batteries.

-There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.

-We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
transfer switch

-There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed
in April, but the generator fires up weekly.

-The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.

-The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
sometimes less.

-We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
two different people.

-We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)

-We have replaced all home runs.

-We have replaced both inverters.

-Arc faults are still happening.

-Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.

I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?Â

Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?

Thanks for your help,

Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan



Project Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC

109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850

Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121 



www.taitem.com

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List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Drake]

Electrical noise coming in from the utility side
can also cause an arc fault code.

At 07:32 AM 11/11/2016, you wrote:

This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby.

As for grounding, The array and the shed with
the interconnection point are in the same area.
There are a couple ground rods there, which
everything on the AC side is connected to,Â
including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is
just a #10 ground coming from the array to the inverters.Â
The house is a couple hundred feet away and has
its own grounding electrode system.

Jerry,
The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago),
but it is a good idea to check firmware.
As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types
of things you mentioned, although there
may be a well pump. They also do have a large
water storage tank for heating, but they
say that they have not needed to use it yet this
year. Then there is also the generator...

Thanks for your recommendations.
-Dave



--

Dave Tedeyan
Project Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer
<jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dave.
We have many TL-22 in the field and they will
detect faults even when they are normal
contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is
the latest, last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it
may have a patch in there, you can turn off the
feature for testing only and see if you melt
something down but if you do please be on site
as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC
system with contacts, welders, compressors,
anything that has a dry contacts that brakes
under load, this is another place I would look.
Every time we have had a code out it was real
weather from something normal or a wire issue.
Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field
from the 3's to the 24's and as much as I dread
getting a call with this issue I can usually
find the problem and it can be either AC or DC.
Jerry

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan
<dtede...@taitem.com> wrote:
Hi All,Â

Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a
couple inverters keep arc faulting:

-There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
-3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the inverter.
-Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the
inverters are located (indoors)
-Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
-There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
-We interconnect by using piercing taps on the
line side of the generator transfer switch
-There has been only one power outage there
since the system was installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.

-The arc faults have been happening on both
inverters. Sometimes only one at a time,
sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
-The events have been approximately one a month,
but sometimes more, sometimes less.

-We have already checked every single connection
in the system twice, by two different people.
-We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
-We have replaced all home runs.
-We have replaced both inverters.
-Arc faults are still happening.
-Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.

I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?Â
Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan
Project Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Howie Michaelson]

Sorry, I meant "Dave"...

Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
802-272-0004

On Nov 11, 2016 7:33 AM, "Dave Tedeyan"  wrote:

> This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby.
>
> As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point
> are in the same area.
> There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is
> connected to,
> including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming
> from the array to the inverters.
> The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding
> electrode system.
>
> Jerry,
> The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to
> check firmware.
> As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned,
> although there
> may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for
> heating, but they
> say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also
> the generator...
>
> Thanks for your recommendations.
> -Dave
>
>
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>> Dave.
>> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when
>> they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest,
>> last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn
>> off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if
>> you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system
>> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that
>> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have
>> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue.
>> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and
>> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the
>> problem and it can be either AC or DC.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
>>> faulting:
>>>
>>> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
>>> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
>>> inverter.
>>> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
>>> (indoors)
>>> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
>>> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
>>> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the
>>> generator transfer switch
>>> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was
>>> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>>>
>>> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only
>>> one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
>>> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
>>> sometimes less.
>>>
>>> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
>>> two different people.
>>> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
>>> -We have replaced all home runs.
>>> -We have replaced both inverters.
>>> -Arc faults are still happening.
>>> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>>>
>>> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
>>> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> *--*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dave Tedeyan*
>>> *Project Engineer*
>>>
>>> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
>>> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>>> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
>>> www.taitem.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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>>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Howie Michaelson]

Hi Dane,
It was a few years ago, but I believe we had an arc fault with the same
type of array setup (although I'm wondering now if they were -12s - I'm
pretty sure they were -22s). After checking everything twice, we ran 1
string at a time and still got the arc fault. After badgering tech support
for too long, they had us run a couple of perfunctory tests and finally
agreed to replace them. Problems gone. I believe this is an undocumented
hardware out firmware problem with some of these. I assume you've been
dealing with sma on this, just thought I'd mention this...

Howie
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
802-272-0004

On Nov 11, 2016 7:33 AM, "Dave Tedeyan"  wrote:

> This array is a ground mount, so not on a roof, and no radio towers nearby.
>
> As for grounding, The array and the shed with the interconnection point
> are in the same area.
> There are a couple ground rods there, which everything on the AC side is
> connected to,
> including a #6 wire from each inverter. there is just a #10 ground coming
> from the array to the inverters.
> The house is a couple hundred feet away and has its own grounding
> electrode system.
>
> Jerry,
> The inverters are new (replaced 2 months ago), but it is a good idea to
> check firmware.
> As for AC loads, nothing stands out as the types of things you mentioned,
> although there
> may be a well pump. They also do have a large water storage tank for
> heating, but they
> say that they have not needed to use it yet this year. Then there is also
> the generator...
>
> Thanks for your recommendations.
> -Dave
>
>
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>> Dave.
>> We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when
>> they are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest,
>> last I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn
>> off the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if
>> you do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system
>> with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that
>> brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have
>> had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue.
>> Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and
>> as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the
>> problem and it can be either AC or DC.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
>>> faulting:
>>>
>>> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
>>> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
>>> inverter.
>>> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
>>> (indoors)
>>> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
>>> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
>>> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the
>>> generator transfer switch
>>> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was
>>> installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>>>
>>> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only
>>> one at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
>>> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
>>> sometimes less.
>>>
>>> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
>>> two different people.
>>> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
>>> -We have replaced all home runs.
>>> -We have replaced both inverters.
>>> -Arc faults are still happening.
>>> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>>>
>>> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
>>> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> *--*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dave Tedeyan*
>>> *Project Engineer*
>>>
>>> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
>>> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>>> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
>>> www.taitem.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
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>>> -wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update 

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Jerry Shafer]

Dave.
We have many TL-22 in the field and they will detect faults even when they
are normal contactor faults, have you made sure the SW is the latest, last
I checked it is 2.65.3R and it may have a patch in there, you can turn off
the feature for testing only and see if you melt something down but if you
do please be on site as a arc may happen. Do you have a well, AC system
with contacts, welders, compressors, anything that has a dry contacts that
brakes under load, this is another place I would look. Every time we have
had a code out it was real weather from something normal or a wire issue.
Not to brag but we have hundreds in the field from the 3's to the 24's and
as much as I dread getting a call with this issue I can usually find the
problem and it can be either AC or DC.
Jerry

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
> faulting:
>
> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
> inverter.
> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
> (indoors)
> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
> transfer switch
> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed
> in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>
> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
> sometimes less.
>
> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
> two different people.
> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
> -We have replaced all home runs.
> -We have replaced both inverters.
> -Arc faults are still happening.
> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>
> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Dave
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/maillist.html
>
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> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[frank -bz products]

I have found that single point grounding in large complex systems can 
solve a lot strange problems. Just a thought.



BZ Products INC.
8801 Gravois Rd.
St.Louis MO 63123 USA
314-644-2490
www.bz-products.net

On 11/10/2016 3:20 PM, Drake wrote:
Is your array on a large metal roof, or is it where intense radio 
signals could be getting picked up by your racking? Either of these 
conditions could potentially be your problem.


At 01:37 PM 11/10/2016, you wrote:

Daryl,Â
That is what I thought at first. Very rare, but I suppose not 
impossible that IÂ
would have two inverters with bad arc fault detectors. But since we 
are still
getting arc faults after replacing the inverters, I am thinking that 
it must be

something else.

Cheers,Â
Dave


*--

Dave Tedeyan**
Project Engineer
*
*Taitem Engineering, PC
*109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121 
www.taitem.com 

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:18 PM, > wrote:


There is at least one company (nameless at this point, but not
SMA) that
has been providing replacements for swapping out faulty arc fault
detectors in their inverters. Could it be possible you have a bad
detector?

Daryl



> Hi All,
>
> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters
keep arc
> faulting:
>
> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
> inverter.
> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are
located
> (indoors)
> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the
generator
> transfer switch
> -There has been only one power outage there since the system
was installed
> in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>
> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters.
Sometimes only one
> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes
more,
> sometimes less.
>
> -We have already checked every single connection in the system
twice, by
> two different people.
> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
> -We have replaced all home runs.
> -We have replaced both inverters.
> -Arc faults are still happening.
> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>
> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Dave
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 
> www.taitem.com 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Drake]

Is your array on a large metal roof, or is it
where intense radio signals could be getting
picked up by your racking? Either of these
conditions could potentially be your problem.

At 01:37 PM 11/10/2016, you wrote:

Daryl,Â
That is what I thought at first. Very rare, but
I suppose not impossible that IÂ
would have two inverters with bad arc fault detectors. But since we are still
getting arc faults after replacing the
inverters, I am thinking that it must be
something else.

Cheers,Â
Dave


--

Dave Tedeyan
Project Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
109Â S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice:Â (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:18 PM,
<penobscotso...@midmaine.com> wrote:
There is at least one company (nameless at this point, but not SMA) that
has been providing replacements for swapping out faulty arc fault
detectors in their inverters. Could it be possible you have a bad
detector?

Daryl



> Hi All,
>
> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
> faulting:
>
> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
> inverter.
> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
> (indoors)
> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
> transfer switch
> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed
> in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>
> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
> sometimes less.
>
> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
> two different people.
> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
> -We have replaced all home runs.
> -We have replaced both inverters.
> -Arc faults are still happening.
> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>
> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Dave
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address:
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Matt Partymiller]

Dave,

We have seen false arc-faults on numerous SMA installs.  I have at least
two where we have spent longer troubleshooting than installing the array
(basically removed and re-installed all components).  SMA is very little
help and ultimately encourages us to deactivate the arc-fault feature,
against code requirements.  In one instance we were able to talk SMA into
upgrading a -22 unit to their new -US unit.  That hasn't been installed
long but no issues yet.

Our arrays with older Tigo optimizers and newer SMAs are entirely
hopeless.  Tigo has just advised us to use -22 SMAs only.

If the arc fault is intermittent don't be afraid to conclude the problem
is the inverter, not your install.

Good luck.

Matt



On Thu, November 10, 2016 1:14 pm, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>
> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
> faulting:
>
>
> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
> inverter. -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are
> located (indoors)
> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
> transfer switch -There has been only one power outage there since the
> system was installed in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>
> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
>  at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other. -The events
> have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more, sometimes less.
>
> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
> two different people. -We have replaced the underground wires (and they
> looked just fine) -We have replaced all home runs.
> -We have replaced both inverters.
> -Arc faults are still happening.
> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>
>
> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Dave
>
>
> *--*
>
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Matthew Partymiller
Solar Energy Solutions LLC
(877) 312-7456
m...@solar-energy-solutions.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Dave Tedeyan]

Daryl,
That is what I thought at first. Very rare, but I suppose not impossible
that I
would have two inverters with bad arc fault detectors. But since we are
still
getting arc faults after replacing the inverters, I am thinking that it
must be
something else.

Cheers,
Dave


*--*


*Dave Tedeyan*
*Project Engineer*

*Taitem Engineering, PC*
109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:18 PM,  wrote:

> There is at least one company (nameless at this point, but not SMA) that
> has been providing replacements for swapping out faulty arc fault
> detectors in their inverters. Could it be possible you have a bad
> detector?
>
> Daryl
>
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
> > faulting:
> >
> > -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
> > -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
> > inverter.
> > -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
> > (indoors)
> > -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
> > -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
> > -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
> > transfer switch
> > -There has been only one power outage there since the system was
> installed
> > in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
> >
> > -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
> > at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
> > -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
> > sometimes less.
> >
> > -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
> > two different people.
> > -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
> > -We have replaced all home runs.
> > -We have replaced both inverters.
> > -Arc faults are still happening.
> > -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
> >
> > I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
> > Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
> >
> > Thanks for your help,
> > Dave
> >
> > *--*
> >
> >
> > *Dave Tedeyan*
> > *Project Engineer*
> >
> > *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> > www.taitem.com
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> >
> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >
> > Change listserver email address & settings:
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> org/maillist.html
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[penobscotsolar]

There is at least one company (nameless at this point, but not SMA) that
has been providing replacements for swapping out faulty arc fault
detectors in their inverters. Could it be possible you have a bad
detector?

Daryl



> Hi All,
>
> Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
> faulting:
>
> -There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
> -3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
> inverter.
> -Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
> (indoors)
> -Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
> -There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
> -We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
> transfer switch
> -There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed
> in April, but the generator fires up weekly.
>
> -The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
> at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
> -The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
> sometimes less.
>
> -We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
> two different people.
> -We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
> -We have replaced all home runs.
> -We have replaced both inverters.
> -Arc faults are still happening.
> -Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.
>
> I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
> Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Dave
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Project Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
> www.taitem.com
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>
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[RE-wrenches] SMA Arc-Fault

[Dave Tedeyan]

Hi All,

Maybe someone will have some ideas for why a couple inverters keep arc
faulting:

-There are two SB7000TL-22 inverters, Sunpower branded.
-3 Strings of 7 SPR-327's to each inverter. Kept separate until the
inverter.
-Ground mount about 50' from the shed where the inverters are located
(indoors)
-Simple grid connected system, no batteries.
-There is a whole house generator co-located in the shed.
-We interconnect by using piercing taps on the line side of the generator
transfer switch
-There has been only one power outage there since the system was installed
in April, but the generator fires up weekly.

-The arc faults have been happening on both inverters. Sometimes only one
at a time, sometimes both will go within a day of each other.
-The events have been approximately one a month, but sometimes more,
sometimes less.

-We have already checked every single connection in the system twice, by
two different people.
-We have replaced the underground wires (and they looked just fine)
-We have replaced all home runs.
-We have replaced both inverters.
-Arc faults are still happening.
-Arc faults are not always on the same day/time of the week.

I am wondering if this can be caused by the generator?
Has anyone run into a situation like this or something similar?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

*--*


*Dave Tedeyan*
*Project Engineer*

*Taitem Engineering, PC*
109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121
www.taitem.com
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