Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running

2021-06-29 Thread Chris Schaefer 
Great idea Howie. This client is very hands off and the original installer
did nothing in the way of educating them to the do's and don'ts. I've only
been there once and when I was there the SCP basically had all of the
default values. Oddly, I'm actually looking forward to returning.

Christopher

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 2:17 PM Howie Michaelson 
wrote:

> Chris,
> Had your client tried running the problematic appliances using generator
> direct, that is avoiding the xw entirely. That will at least tell you if it
> is something to do with the generator output or with the interaction of the
> generator with the xw that is causing the problem.
>
> Howie Michaelson
> Sun Catcher
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service
> 802-272-0004
>
> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 4:48 PM Chris Schaefer 
> wrote:
>
>> G'day All,
>>
>> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with
>> a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is
>> currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know,
>> lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for
>> various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until
>> the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric
>> dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs
>> fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny
>> company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along
>> wiith a Schneider AGS module.
>>
>> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've
>> reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see
>> no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things
>> out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer.
>>
>> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5
>> days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users
>> out there.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Christopher-
>>
>> Chris Schaefer’s
>> 
>>
>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
>>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
>> *
>>
>>
>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
>> willing to work and give to those who would not."
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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-- 

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running

2021-06-29 Thread Howie Michaelson 
Chris,
Had your client tried running the problematic appliances using generator
direct, that is avoiding the xw entirely. That will at least tell you if it
is something to do with the generator output or with the interaction of the
generator with the xw that is causing the problem.

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004

On Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 4:48 PM Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> G'day All,
>
> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with
> a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is
> currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know,
> lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for
> various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until
> the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric
> dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs
> fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny
> company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along
> wiith a Schneider AGS module.
>
> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've
> reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see
> no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things
> out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer.
>
> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5
> days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users
> out there.
>
> Sincerely,
> Christopher-
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running

2021-06-29 Thread Maverick Brown 
Just a couple add-on comments

I’d lower the AC2 breaker size setting to around 40A each inverter. Double 
check the generator actually goes to AC2 terminals. 

But, the better setting would be to change the charge percent on the Charger 
setting for both inverters, maybe dedicate up to 5kW to battery charging?? So, 
2.5kW per inverter, about 35% each inverter. (2500W / 50V / 140A Charger). The 
charger is power factor corrected and generally does a great job not messing up 
the waveform. 

Also, keep in mind generator ratings are Marketing values. I would suggest 20kW 
x 0.80 or 16kW as a working number for the generator. You can measure the 
voltage and frequency of the generator under high load to get an idea how it 
likes being loaded down. 

Next, see if a timer can be installed on the hot water heater to move that load 
to a non-dryer time of day. That can help with overall generator loading. One 
customer chose 1AM and that works for them. Another chose 3PM and that works as 
well, especially with a larger solar array. 

When you get the gateway and go to do the software upgrade, the inverters will 
go into standby, so manually start the generator, switch to bypass mode (if 
necessary) so if you need power to complete the upgrade, you will have it. 

Good luck and enjoy!



Maverick Brown
Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
 • Solar Commander Remote Power
 • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection 
maver...@mavericksolar.com
512-460-9825


> On Jun 29, 2021, at 7:51 AM, Chris Schaefer  wrote:
> 
> 
> After doing some additional reading of the manual and with everyone's great 
> insight I'm leaning towards the AC2 breaker sizing setting within the SCP. 
> Given that default is 60 amps and that there are two inverters that would 
> tell me that both charging and loads could draw as much as 120 amps. Given 
> that the main output breaker on the 20kw gen is 80 amps I believe this might 
> be part of the issue. Additionally, I'll be purchasing the Insight tool so 
> that I can upgrade the firmware as the client will, once the grid is present 
> need this to select the correct grid code to match the area's utility. In 
> reading the firmware attachment that I believe Dave sent, what caught my eye 
> at the end under Fixes: it states "fixes AC2 generator qualification issues". 
> I'll be sure and update you on my findings.
> 
> Sincere Thanks,
> Christopher
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 7:58 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>> 
>> I recommend enabling Gen support mode and lowering the gen support level 
>> until the generator sounds good.  I suspect that the generator can't handle 
>> full battery charging and loads simultaneously.  You may also want to turn 
>> down the AC2 In breaker size for the Gen Input, this will determine how much 
>> the XW allows to be pulled through the Input terminals.  Also, be sure they 
>> are using AC2 right now for the generator input, otherwise, you may need to 
>> adjust the AC1 parameters instead (or swap terminals).  There is also a Gen 
>> Amps setting that can be lowered, and you can lower the max charge rate as 
>> well.
>> 
>> I believe that Schneider treats the AC input as either a grid (can be 
>> backfed on AC1 terminals) or a generator (cannot be backfed on AC2 
>> terminals), so I'm not sure if there is equivalent to the Outback Input 
>> modes.  There are some advanced grid interconnection settings but I don't 
>> think that applies here.
>> 
>> Let us know what you find out.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:36 PM William Miller  
>>> wrote:
>>> Chris:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an 
>>> Outback system that might be relevant:  When the Outback Radian inverters 
>>> would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several 
>>> generator utilization settings)  the charging circuits would inject large 
>>> amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit.  This would cause breaker 
>>> tripping and other problems.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer.  Here is 
>>> a link to a write-up I did. 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> William Miller
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Miller Solar
>>> 
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>> 
>>> 805-438-5600
>>> 
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>> 
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>&g

Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running

2021-06-29 Thread Chris Schaefer 
After doing some additional reading of the manual and with everyone's great
insight I'm leaning towards the AC2 breaker sizing setting within the SCP.
Given that default is 60 amps and that there are two inverters that would
tell me that both charging and loads could draw as much as 120 amps. Given
that the main output breaker on the 20kw gen is 80 amps I believe this
might be part of the issue. Additionally, I'll be purchasing the Insight
tool so that I can upgrade the firmware as the client will, once the grid
is present need this to select the correct grid code to match the area's
utility. In reading the firmware attachment that I believe Dave sent, what
caught my eye at the end under Fixes: it states "fixes AC2 generator
qualification issues". I'll be sure and update you on my findings.

Sincere Thanks,
Christopher

On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 7:58 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> I recommend enabling Gen support mode and lowering the gen support level
> until the generator sounds good.  I suspect that the generator can't handle
> full battery charging and loads simultaneously.  You may also want to turn
> down the AC2 In breaker size for the Gen Input, this will determine how
> much the XW allows to be pulled through the Input terminals.  Also, be sure
> they are using AC2 right now for the generator input, otherwise, you may
> need to adjust the AC1 parameters instead (or swap terminals).  There is
> also a Gen Amps setting that can be lowered, and you can lower the max
> charge rate as well.
>
> I believe that Schneider treats the AC input as either a grid (can be
> backfed on AC1 terminals) or a generator (cannot be backfed on AC2
> terminals), so I'm not sure if there is equivalent to the Outback Input
> modes.  There are some advanced grid interconnection settings but I don't
> think that applies here.
>
> Let us know what you find out.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:36 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Chris:
>>
>>
>>
>> I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an
>> Outback system that might be relevant:  When the Outback Radian inverters
>> would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several
>> generator utilization settings)  the charging circuits would inject large
>> amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit.  This would cause breaker
>> tripping and other problems.
>>
>>
>>
>> To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer.  Here
>> is a link
>> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/25_GFI%20Tripping/GFI_Tripping.html>
>> to a write-up I did.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running
>>
>>
>>
>> G'day All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with
>> a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is
>> currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know,
>> lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for
>> various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until
>> the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric
>> dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs
>> fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny
>> company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along
>> wiith a Schneider AGS module.
>>
>>
>>
>> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've
>> reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see
>> no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things
>> out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5
>> days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users
>> out there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Christopher-
>>
>> Chris Sc

Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running

2021-06-28 Thread ericstev 
Chris, 


I strongly suspect that William is correct.  It is a power quality issue
caused by the charger section of the inverter/charger.  I encountered a
similar situation with a customer's OutBack VFX inverter several years
ago.  He purchased a new electronically controlled propane range and a
couple of UPS units to back-up his computer.  Both worked fine with just
the generator or just the inverter, but if the charger started up to
charge his batteries then all would go off-line.  No amount of tweaking
the charge rate down would eliminate the drop-out.  A low-pass
power-line filter for each appliance might cure the problem.  My
customer just learned to live with the issue. 

Eric Stevens 


Vermont Made Energy


--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:48:36 -0400
From: Chris Schaefer 
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

G'day All,

I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a
Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently
off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The
intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various
reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the
genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer
don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine.
The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny
company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along
wiith a Schneider AGS module.

Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've
reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see
no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things
out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer.

I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5
days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users
out there.

Sincerely,
Christopher-

Chris Schaefer?s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com [1]
<http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 14:13:06 -0700
From: William Miller 
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running
Message-ID: <23353410817ad01d1a373e23ff81a...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Chris:

I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an
Outback system that might be relevant:  When the Outback Radian inverters
would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several
generator utilization settings)  the charging circuits would inject large
amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit.  This would cause breaker
tripping and other problems.

To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer.  Here is
a link
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/25_GFI%20Tripping/GFI_Tripping.html>
to a write-up I did.

Hope this helps.

William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com [2]

CA Lic. 773985



Links:
--
[1] http://www.solarandwindfx.com
[2] http://www.millersolar.com___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running

2021-06-28 Thread Mac Lewis 
Hi Chris,

I recommend enabling Gen support mode and lowering the gen support level
until the generator sounds good.  I suspect that the generator can't handle
full battery charging and loads simultaneously.  You may also want to turn
down the AC2 In breaker size for the Gen Input, this will determine how
much the XW allows to be pulled through the Input terminals.  Also, be sure
they are using AC2 right now for the generator input, otherwise, you may
need to adjust the AC1 parameters instead (or swap terminals).  There is
also a Gen Amps setting that can be lowered, and you can lower the max
charge rate as well.

I believe that Schneider treats the AC input as either a grid (can be
backfed on AC1 terminals) or a generator (cannot be backfed on AC2
terminals), so I'm not sure if there is equivalent to the Outback Input
modes.  There are some advanced grid interconnection settings but I don't
think that applies here.

Let us know what you find out.




On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:36 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Chris:
>
>
>
> I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an
> Outback system that might be relevant:  When the Outback Radian inverters
> would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several
> generator utilization settings)  the charging circuits would inject large
> amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit.  This would cause breaker
> tripping and other problems.
>
>
>
> To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer.  Here
> is a link
> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/25_GFI%20Tripping/GFI_Tripping.html>
> to a write-up I did.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer
> *Sent:* Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running
>
>
>
> G'day All,
>
>
>
> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with
> a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is
> currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know,
> lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for
> various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until
> the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric
> dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs
> fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny
> company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along
> wiith a Schneider AGS module.
>
>
>
> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've
> reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see
> no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things
> out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer.
>
>
>
> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5
> days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users
> out there.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Christopher-
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com>
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: **ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
___

Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running

2021-06-28 Thread William Miller 
Chris:



I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an
Outback system that might be relevant:  When the Outback Radian inverters
would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several
generator utilization settings)  the charging circuits would inject large
amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit.  This would cause breaker
tripping and other problems.



To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer.  Here is
a link
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/25_GFI%20Tripping/GFI_Tripping.html>
to a write-up I did.



Hope this helps.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer
*Sent:* Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running



G'day All,



I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a
Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently
off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The
intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various
reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the
genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer
don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine.
The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny
company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along
wiith a Schneider AGS module.



Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've
reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see
no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things
out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer.



I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5
days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users
out there.



Sincerely,

Christopher-

Chris Schaefer’s
<http://www.solarandwindfx.com>

*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com
<http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: **ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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[RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running

2021-06-28 Thread Chris Schaefer 
G'day All,

I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a
Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently
off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The
intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various
reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the
genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer
don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine.
The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny
company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along
wiith a Schneider AGS module.

Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've
reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see
no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things
out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer.

I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5
days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users
out there.

Sincerely,
Christopher-

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
___
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