Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

I had the same experience as Jay as far as being marketed three idea that
managed lithium batteries can jane several year age differences and still
play well together, only to be told, after telling my clients the same,
that most manufacturers don't recommend more than a year age differential
(although apparently a few say mix and match till your heart's content).
They also recommend keeping them in open loop, I think mostly because of
all the firmware updating that is happening on both the battery and
inverter side which causes continual incompatibility issues.
Disappointing, to say the least.

Fortunately, I have yet to see any Fortress BMS failures.

Howie
Sun Catcher

On Tue, Apr 23, 2024, 10:37 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> If the batteries have a 10-year life, I don't think it would make much
> difference. LA batteries show an increase in internal resistance after a
> few recharges. Typically, the BMS in a Li battery will ensure at top
> balance all cells balance,  If the batteries are being properly recharged.
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> HI All
>>
>> Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.
>>
>> I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t
>> recommend adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the
>> age is over 1 year difference.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> thanks
>> jay
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

If the batteries have a 10-year life, I don't think it would make much
difference. LA batteries show an increase in internal resistance after a
few recharges. Typically, the BMS in a Li battery will ensure at top
balance all cells balance,  If the batteries are being properly recharged.


On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All
>
> Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.
>
> I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend
> adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over
> 1 year difference.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> thanks
> jay
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches]

Jay

  Do not get me started. That is not what they told me when I was buying 1 to 2 
per customer. Thay were very optimistic about growing a bank. Now they are 
saying something very different. Also their BMS boards, they do not hold up and 
now I have customers that have had numerous replacements and the batteries have 
to come out of closed loop and work on Voltages only. Thay have no solution. My 
apologies for the Rant.

Thx
Peter Giroux
American Solar 

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of jay 
via RE-wrenches
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 5:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: jay 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

HI All

Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.

I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend 
adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over 1 
year difference.

Thoughts?

thanks
jay
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Even with LFP, mixing different-age batteries is still not the best idea.
Even if using closed-loop communication, they can get out of balance pretty
quickly, which will lead to all kinds of BMS issues.

One of the reasons I suggest using a main positive and negative bus with
breakers: You can easily isolate the parallel strings and charge them
independently to ensure they stay balanced.

Personally, anything older than six months' difference, I would still plan
on balancing every 4-6 months. The harder they work them, the more often
they will need to be balanced.




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










--
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
destroy this message and all copies.
--


On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All
>
> Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.
>
> I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend
> adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over
> 1 year difference.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> thanks
> jay
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches]

In a battery backup mostly float state with low cycle count, I’d add to a bank 
several years later. 

It’s really hard to say “several” since most LiFePO4 batteries haven’t been 
alive for that long. 

I’ve personally added 8 Pytes E-Box to 8 eFlex with no issue. The Schneider 
Insight even allows two comm cables and shows both SOCs. 

At another customer, I’m adding four Pytes batteries a quarter until we get 16. 
Grid Tie battery back up. Once we get to 16 will turn on time of use metering 
and exercise the batteries a bit more.

Thank you,

Maverick

Maverick Brown
Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
 • Solar Commander Remote Power
 • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection 
maver...@mavericksolar.com
512-460-9825



> On Apr 23, 2024, at 4:05 PM, jay via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> HI All
> 
> Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.
> 
> I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend 
> adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over 1 
> year difference.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> thanks
> jay
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the 
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

It depends on how the BMS shares with the new BMS. A state of life 
measurement, the charge algorithm, and ? has to account for this for 
them to charge and discharge well together.


Pretty safe to say one year for many makes of battery.   Kind of like 
bussbar use in large systems,  is a way to think about this.


A good battery system will know and log this also for warranty.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-04-23 2:03 pm, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:


HI All

Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.

I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don't 
recommend adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if 
the age is over 1 year difference.


Thoughts?

thanks
jay
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try 
the other:

https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org



Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] https://offgridsolar1.com/___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All

Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.

I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend 
adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over 1 
year difference.

Thoughts?

thanks
jay
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org