Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-11 Thread Steve Higgins 
 Larry,

Thanks for the pics...

AGM's, because they are valve regulated, do need a bit more airflow around
them.  Remember there isn't the vast amount of electrolyte in a flooded
cells AGM's they are starved electrolyte batteries the only electrolyte is
what is in the Glass Matting.   Has FR seen these pics?  If so they may not
like the lack of airflow.

I'd talk with Full River, and ask them to do a tear down on these, they may
or may not...  See if you can get them to cover if they find a
manufacturing defect internally.

The tear down should tell them/and you if the temps for some reason just
got too hot, or if indeed it was a manufacturing defect that caused them
both to swell.

It'll probably cost you shipping one way, but might be worth it if indeed
they find a defect.



 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
<#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> 
 





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On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Here is another similar installation. There is air space on top of and
> some between the battery. Many of our installations have the AGM batteries
> completely sealed in a box. 17 years of installing battery systems like
> this and not one single problem.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> (928) 342-9103
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 10, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Steve Higgins  wrote:
>
> Larry,
>
> Do you have any pic's of them installed?
>
> That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed.
>
> I do have two questions for you...
>
> Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries?
>
> Where was the temp sensor?
>
>
>
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-11 Thread Starlight Solar Power Systems 
Steve,

Here is another similar installation. There is air space on top of and some 
between the battery. Many of our installations have the AGM batteries 
completely sealed in a box. 17 years of installing battery systems like this 
and not one single problem.  

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





On May 10, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Steve Higgins  wrote:

Larry, 

Do you have any pic's of them installed? 

That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed. 

I do have two questions for you... 

Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries? 

Where was the temp sensor? 




   
  
  
  
  
  
  
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-11 Thread Starlight Solar Power Systems 
Here is a photo of before I removed the deformed battery. The Magnum temp 
sensor was on one battery and the PV controller sensor on the other. I do not 
believe anything external caused this failure. Perhaps a shorted cell allowed 
the charger to pass high current continuously.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On May 10, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Steve Higgins  wrote:

Larry, 

Do you have any pic's of them installed? 

That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed. 

I do have two questions for you... 

Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries? 

Where was the temp sensor? 




   
  
  
  
  
  
  
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com 
  
   
<>   <> 
  <> 
 <> 
  

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Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any 
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On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
> wrote:
Wrenches, 

Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every 
charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. 
The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and 
spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were 
dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after 
installation. 

After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another 
set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused 
together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of 
two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period 
but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the 
warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to 
the reporting date being grater than 24 months.

I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-11 Thread Starlight Solar Power Systems 
I agree….that is something we have never done. These batteries are same date 
and both new when installed.

Larry



On May 10, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Rick Brown  
wrote:

I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is not 
recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with potentially extreme 
temps can lead to thermal runaway. 

rick brown
SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC
Electrical & Solar Contracting Services
www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com 
Check, Virginia 24072
540.808.9502 

VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660
VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762
VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer  
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21

On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maver...@mavericksolar.com 
" > wrote:

> Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain 
> excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp 
> sensor on charging source?
> What size interconnect cables were used? 
> Was it a bus system? 
> Absorb with End Amps was turned on?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-11 Thread Starlight Solar Power Systems 
Both were new, same date batteries. 
Currents are so low there is no heat problem. 
Even Charging at 70 Amps does not produce much heat even after a few hours.
The batteries did expand into the containing box. Note that with many hundreds 
of similar installations, this is the only one that had this heat event.
Cables were 2/0 between and to the bus bar. No terminal heating took place.
Absorb ends after time only. Also, the alternator charges while driving at 13.9 
volts. Neither is a problem since current will drop to about 0.7 after 
saturation.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On May 10, 2018, at 3:02 PM, maver...@mavericksolar.com wrote:

Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain 
excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp 
sensor on charging source?
What size interconnect cables were used? 
Was it a bus system? 
Absorb with End Amps was turned on?

Sent from my iPhone

On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar > wrote:

> 
> One year old. Well looked after system. 
> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
> > wrote:
> 
>> Wrenches, 
>> 
>> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
>> thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every 
>> charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause 
>> found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her 
>> RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the 
>> batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd 
>> month after installation. 
>> 
>> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another 
>> set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused 
>> together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know 
>> of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty 
>> period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond 
>> the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement 
>> do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months.
>> 
>> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
>> Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-10 Thread jay 
Lead melts at 621.

Plastics melt depending on the type between 212f and 491f ( for the most common 
ones)
http://education.seattlepi.com/hot-water-melt-plastic-3626.html

But melting and being able to be deformed is very different.  

jay

peltz power

> On May 10, 2018, at 2:48 PM, Chris Worcester  wrote:
> 
> Wow, Melting point 
> :
>  621.4°F .
>  
> Chris Worcester
> Solar Wind Works
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
> Office 530-582-4503
> Cell 530-448-9692
> Fax 530-582-4603
> www.solarwindworks.com 
> ch...@solarwindworks.com 
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Starlight 
> Solar Power Systems
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 1:43 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown
>  
> Wrenches, 
>  
> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
> thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every 
> charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause 
> found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her 
> RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries 
> were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month 
> after installation. 
>  
> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another 
> set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused 
> together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of 
> two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period 
> but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the 
> warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to 
> the reporting date being grater than 24 months.
>  
> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
> Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.
>  
> Thank you,
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>  
>  
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-10 Thread Michael Morningstar 
The picture shows a group of new Fullriver batteries destined for a different 
site, and the ruined Crown’s I had just pulled out. They are sitting in the 
back of my truck. Batteries were in a basement that stays 55F year round. Temp 
sensors for both the Magnum inverter and Midnite Classic 150. Small array(600 
watts). 2/0 cables. Absorb time 1.5 hours. Factory recommended charging 
parameters. Tight connections. My first thermal runaway after hundreds and 
hundreds of battery bank installs too. My local distributor has been pushing 
Crowns and their great warranty so I reluctantly gave them a shot. Lead acids 
and AGMs. I’m not impressed with either. Nor their warranty process.

I
> On May 10, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Rick Brown  
> wrote:
> 
> I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is not 
> recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with potentially extreme 
> temps can lead to thermal runaway. 
> 
> rick brown
> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC
> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services
> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com 
> 
> Check, Virginia 24072
> 540.808.9502 
> 
> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660
> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762
> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer  
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21
> 
> On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maver...@mavericksolar.com 
> "  > wrote:
> 
>> Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain 
>> excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp 
>> sensor on charging source?
>> What size interconnect cables were used? 
>> Was it a bus system? 
>> Absorb with End Amps was turned on?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar > > wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> One year old. Well looked after system. 
>>> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
 Wrenches, 
 
 Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
 thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked 
 every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No 
 cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little 
 power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported 
 that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was 
 i the 23rd month after installation. 
 
 After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that 
 another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they 
 had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too 
 peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 
 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for 
 another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow 
 anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 
 months.
 
 I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
 Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.
 
 Thank you,
 
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
 
 
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-10 Thread Rick Brown 
I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is not 
recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with potentially extreme 
temps can lead to thermal runaway. 

rick brown
SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC
Electrical & Solar Contracting Services
www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com
Check, Virginia 24072
540.808.9502

VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660
VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762
VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer  
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21

> On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maver...@mavericksolar.com" 
>  wrote:
> 
> Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain 
> excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp 
> sensor on charging source?
> What size interconnect cables were used? 
> Was it a bus system? 
> Absorb with End Amps was turned on?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> One year old. Well looked after system. 
>>> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wrenches, 
>>> 
>>> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
>>> thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked 
>>> every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No 
>>> cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power 
>>> in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the 
>>> batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 
>>> 23rd month after installation. 
>>> 
>>> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that 
>>> another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they 
>>> had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too 
>>> peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 
>>> year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 
>>> 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything 
>>> towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months.
>>> 
>>> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
>>> Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> 
>>> Larry Crutcher
>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>> 
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> 
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-10 Thread maver...@mavericksolar.com 
Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain 
excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp 
sensor on charging source?
What size interconnect cables were used? 
Was it a bus system? 
Absorb with End Amps was turned on?

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> One year old. Well looked after system. 
>> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Wrenches, 
>> 
>> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and 
>> thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every 
>> charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause 
>> found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her 
>> RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the 
>> batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd 
>> month after installation. 
>> 
>> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another 
>> set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused 
>> together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know 
>> of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty 
>> period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond 
>> the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement 
>> do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months.
>> 
>> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or 
>> Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown

2018-05-10 Thread Steve Higgins 
Larry,

Do you have any pic's of them installed?

That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed.

I do have two questions for you...

Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries?

Where was the temp sensor?




 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
<#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> 
 





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On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and
> thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked
> every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No
> cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power
> in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the
> batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the
> 23rd month after installation.
>
> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that
> another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they
> had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too
> peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2
> year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another
> 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything
> towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months.
>
> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or
> Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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> org/maillist.html
>
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>
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> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
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