Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump
HI Daryl; Your experiences with the water pump got me to thinking that a water pump has a MaxPowerPoint as well. (Flow rate x head) As you varied the flow rate, you were also MPPT ing the pump- inverter system. You found max current at the middle of the pump's range, just like a solar module. Also, on batteries, I found as you did, that a single string of L16s or T105s could not deliver the required current for very long to either start or run a large load like a pump. I currently ( no pun intended) think that two battery strings are optimum, for this and other reasons. I'd third the others input, that a generator is the best choice for a fire suppression pump. It won't be used at all most of the time, and then it needs to run continuously for hours in a very critical application. Instead of a huge battery bank and wall of inverters, the money might be better spent on a quality generator with reliable fuel supply (underground propane?) and more PV with a nice grid tie system. Loads that can't be interrupted for a few seconds while the generator comes up to speed, (computers) could be on their own UPS, or have a smaller Outback system. The efficiency of a grid tie system diminishes with increased battery size, though. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:24 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: Sorry this could be more helpful if I had a better memory, I don't mean to ramble, but some wrenches may find value. I am working on a standalone system now and I am in testing. Normally I use OUtback, (and I am very happy) and this time I decided to use Magnum 4024 AE. The job has both a large motor and is AC coupled to DGI inverter. The large motor draws over 120 amp (120 volt) surge when connected to a grid source. I have started this motor in test repeatedly My Greenlee amp clamp says it is surging at 90 amps! The VOM says the min voltage is 97 volts. This is on ONE 4024 AE, Magnum is getting close to release of the paralled version The test battery set is Trojan T105 single string, and the surge DC measured by Ideal DC clamp on is 280 amps. Voltage and minimum battery voltage is 21 volts Ideal VOM. I would think that the parrellel version could handle your motor. Old system I did a fire pump install in a large residence, I think back in 2004? the specs were similar except the starting surge was higher and the running was almost the same (maximum of 20 amps and less depending upon flow). I used an Odd number of OUtback inverters (5) but not all were to this task. First the starting surge measured by my greenlee clamp-on amp meter was higher on the grid than it is on the inverters. I did a lot of field tests, however I do not know where I put the data. I noticed that if I had fully charged batteries the starting was 100% reliable but on batteries at near 50% SoC the system started to fault on low AC during start-up The batteries were L-16 Surrette 48 volt string. If the system was started every five minutes it would fault, but if a longer waiting period I remember during the course of the job I started the pump over 100 times in test mode with out a failure. (this system gets annual tests and no problems so far) Pumps: We found that the pump current draw depended upon the flow rate we allowed.. If we had one head open, the current draw was less than all heads open. The maximum curent draw was at some flow rate in the middle flow range! The starting surge was independent of whether the valve was open or closed. If it would be possible to use a SQflex this would be a good choise. Finally this system is grid tied and has a relay to Outback if the Grid should fail and it has a generator inlet box if a generator is avaiable to take the load. --- On Fri, 8/27/10, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 9:50 PM Hi Ray, Thank you for your input. The pump is part of a fire protection system that sucks water out of the swimming pool and pumps it to roof sprinklers with fire retardant added to the water. I'll forward your email to my colleague who has the details. Best regards, Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump Forgot to mention the usual info: look at the pump to see if a smaller or no surge Grundfos SQE might be able to handle the flow rate and pressure needed. Pumps are cheap, when you're considering multiple inverters.. Given what you mentioned (110 amp surge at 240 vac), I don't think even a quad stack of Outbacks could do it. ( please ignore my
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump
Maybe another possibility if the generator is a non-starter: 1) Sealed Batteries (no maintainance) appropriately sized for the running load only, no motor starting surge 2) Single Sunny Island 5048 inverter (the most reliable IMHO) 3) 6 kVA autotransformer (boosts SI output to 240V) 4) 240V single phase input Variable Frequency Drive (programable, allows you to slowly ramp up motor speed with little or no surge and adjust final speed) (VFDs are extensively used for industrial motor control) (adjust VFD to operate within the Sunny Island's rating, it's at the limit here) 5) Replace the single phase pump motor with a 3 phase inverter duty unit (VFD output is 3 phase) Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric --- You wrote: HI Daryl; Your experiences with the water pump got me to thinking that a water pump has a MaxPowerPoint as well. (Flow rate x head) As you varied the flow rate, you were also MPPT ing the pump- inverter system. You found max current at the middle of the pump's range, just like a solar module. Also, on batteries, I found as you did, that a single string of L16s or T105s could not deliver the required current for very long to either start or run a large load like a pump. I currently ( no pun intended) think that two battery strings are optimum, for this and other reasons. I'd third the others input, that a generator is the best choice for a fire suppression pump. It won't be used at all most of the time, and then it needs to run continuously for hours in a very critical application. Instead of a huge battery bank and wall of inverters, the money might be better spent on a quality generator with reliable fuel supply (underground propane?) and more PV with a nice grid tie system. Loads that can't be interrupted for a few seconds while the generator comes up to speed, (computers) could be on their own UPS, or have a smaller Outback system. The efficiency of a grid tie system diminishes with increased battery size, though. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:24 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: Sorry this could be more helpful if I had a better memory, I don't mean to ramble, but some wrenches may find value. I am working on a standalone system now and I am in testing. Normally I use OUtback, (and I am very happy) and this time I decided to use Magnum 4024 AE. The job has both a large motor and is AC coupled to DGI inverter. The large motor draws over 120 amp (120 volt) surge when connected to a grid source. I have started this motor in test repeatedly My Greenlee amp clamp says it is surging at 90 amps! The VOM says the min voltage is 97 volts. This is on ONE 4024 AE, Magnum is getting close to release of the paralled version The test battery set is Trojan T105 single string, and the surge DC measured by Ideal DC clamp on is 280 amps. Voltage and minimum battery voltage is 21 volts Ideal VOM. I would think that the parrellel version could handle your motor. Old system I did a fire pump install in a large residence, I think back in 2004? the specs were similar except the starting surge was higher and the running was almost the same (maximum of 20 amps and less depending upon flow). I used an Odd number of OUtback inverters (5) but not all were to this task. First the starting surge measured by my greenlee clamp-on amp meter was higher on the grid than it is on the inverters. I did a lot of field tests, however I do not know where I put the data. I noticed that if I had fully charged batteries the starting was 100% reliable but on batteries at near 50% SoC the system started to fault on low AC during start-up The batteries were L-16 Surrette 48 volt string. If the system was started every five minutes it would fault, but if a longer waiting period I remember during the course of the job I started the pump over 100 times in test mode with out a failure. (this system gets annual tests and no problems so far) Pumps: We found that the pump current draw depended upon the flow rate we allowed.. If we had one head open, the current draw was less than all heads open. The maximum curent draw was at some flow rate in the middle flow range! The starting surge was independent of whether the valve was open or closed. If it would be possible to use a SQflex this would be a good choise. Finally this system is grid tied and has a relay to Outback if the Grid should fail and it has a generator inlet box if a generator is avaiable to take the load. --- On Fri, 8/27/10, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 9:50 PM Hi Ray, Thank you for your input. The pump is part of a fire protection system that sucks water out of the swimming pool and pumps it to roof sprinklers with fire retardant added to the water. I'll
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump
Hi Ray, Thank you for your input. The pump is part of a fire protection system that sucks water out of the swimming pool and pumps it to roof sprinklers with fire retardant added to the water. I'll forward your email to my colleague who has the details. Best regards, Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump Forgot to mention the usual info: look at the pump to see if a smaller or no surge Grundfos SQE might be able to handle the flow rate and pressure needed. Pumps are cheap, when you're considering multiple inverters.. Given what you mentioned (110 amp surge at 240 vac), I don't think even a quad stack of Outbacks could do it. ( please ignore my earlier post) A quad stack could run that, just not start it. Franklin makes a soft start controller, that might work with that pump. What is the Horse power rating? R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 27, 2010, at 3:52 PM, R Ray Walters wrote: Little beyond a pair of Outbacks, possibly a pair of Magnasine inverters, or a quad stack of Outbacks. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 26, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Joel Davidson wrote: Wrenches, Our customer has a fire protection pumping system that operates at 240VAC and 22 amps with a 110 amps starting surge. The pump will only be used for up to 4 hours in an emergency (but hopefully never). The customer wants an inverter and battery (no generator or PV) in case grid power is destroyed by fire. What inverter(s) do you recommend? Thank you very much for sharing your off-grid knowledge. Joel Davidson ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump
Joel, We are currently in the middle of installing a 7 kw off grid system with just these requirements. The client is a retired Chicago firefighter and insisted on this commercial fire suppression system. After much research the logical conclusion we reached was the same as William's recommendation below. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV installer Penobscot Solar Design Joel: With these requirements, the inverter I recommend is a generator. William At 05:41 PM 8/26/2010, you wrote: Wrenches, Our customer has a fire protection pumping system that operates at 240VAC and 22 amps with a 110 amps starting surge. The pump will only be used for up to 4 hours in an emergency (but hopefully never). The customer wants an inverter and battery (no generator or PV) in case grid power is destroyed by fire. What inverter(s) do you recommend? Thank you very much for sharing your off-grid knowledge. Joel Davidson ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3096 - Release Date: 08/26/10 18:34:00 Please note new e-mail address and domain: William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump
Sorry this could be more helpful if I had a better memory, I don't mean to ramble, but some wrenches may find value. I am working on a standalone system now and I am in testing. Normally I use OUtback, (and I am very happy) and this time I decided to use Magnum 4024 AE. The job has both a large motor and is AC coupled to DGI inverter. The large motor draws over 120 amp (120 volt) surge when connected to a grid source. I have started this motor in test repeatedly My Greenlee amp clamp says it is surging at 90 amps! The VOM says the min voltage is 97 volts. This is on ONE 4024 AE, Magnum is getting close to release of the paralled version The test battery set is Trojan T105 single string, and the surge DC measured by Ideal DC clamp on is 280 amps. Voltage and minimum battery voltage is 21 volts Ideal VOM. I would think that the parrellel version could handle your motor. Old system I did a fire pump install in a large residence, I think back in 2004? the specs were similar except the starting surge was higher and the running was almost the same (maximum of 20 amps and less depending upon flow). I used an Odd number of OUtback inverters (5) but not all were to this task. First the starting surge measured by my greenlee clamp-on amp meter was higher on the grid than it is on the inverters. I did a lot of field tests, however I do not know where I put the data. I noticed that if I had fully charged batteries the starting was 100% reliable but on batteries at near 50% SoC the system started to fault on low AC during start-up The batteries were L-16 Surrette 48 volt string. If the system was started every five minutes it would fault, but if a longer waiting period I remember during the course of the job I started the pump over 100 times in test mode with out a failure. (this system gets annual tests and no problems so far) Pumps: We found that the pump current draw depended upon the flow rate we allowed.. If we had one head open, the current draw was less than all heads open. The maximum curent draw was at some flow rate in the middle flow range! The starting surge was independent of whether the valve was open or closed. If it would be possible to use a SQflex this would be a good choise. Finally this system is grid tied and has a relay to Outback if the Grid should fail and it has a generator inlet box if a generator is avaiable to take the load. --- On Fri, 8/27/10, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 9:50 PM Hi Ray, Thank you for your input. The pump is part of a fire protection system that sucks water out of the swimming pool and pumps it to roof sprinklers with fire retardant added to the water. I'll forward your email to my colleague who has the details. Best regards, Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump Forgot to mention the usual info: look at the pump to see if a smaller or no surge Grundfos SQE might be able to handle the flow rate and pressure needed. Pumps are cheap, when you're considering multiple inverters.. Given what you mentioned (110 amp surge at 240 vac), I don't think even a quad stack of Outbacks could do it. ( please ignore my earlier post) A quad stack could run that, just not start it. Franklin makes a soft start controller, that might work with that pump. What is the Horse power rating? R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 27, 2010, at 3:52 PM, R Ray Walters wrote: Little beyond a pair of Outbacks, possibly a pair of Magnasine inverters, or a quad stack of Outbacks. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 26, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Joel Davidson wrote: Wrenches, Our customer has a fire protection pumping system that operates at 240VAC and 22 amps with a 110 amps starting surge. The pump will only be used for up to 4 hours in an emergency (but hopefully never). The customer wants an inverter and battery (no generator or PV) in case grid power is destroyed by fire. What inverter(s) do you recommend? Thank you very much for sharing your off-grid knowledge. Joel Davidson ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump
Wrenches, This group's experience, collective wisdom, and willingness to share practical knowledge and interesting ideas are how I envision higher education in the future. Thank you all for your helpful information. I'll report back what the customer decides to do. Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump Sorry this could be more helpful if I had a better memory, I don't mean to ramble, but some wrenches may find value. I am working on a standalone system now and I am in testing. Normally I use OUtback, (and I am very happy) and this time I decided to use Magnum 4024 AE. The job has both a large motor and is AC coupled to DGI inverter. The large motor draws over 120 amp (120 volt) surge when connected to a grid source. I have started this motor in test repeatedly My Greenlee amp clamp says it is surging at 90 amps! The VOM says the min voltage is 97 volts. This is on ONE 4024 AE, Magnum is getting close to release of the paralled version The test battery set is Trojan T105 single string, and the surge DC measured by Ideal DC clamp on is 280 amps. Voltage and minimum battery voltage is 21 volts Ideal VOM. I would think that the parrellel version could handle your motor. Old system I did a fire pump install in a large residence, I think back in 2004? the specs were similar except the starting surge was higher and the running was almost the same (maximum of 20 amps and less depending upon flow). I used an Odd number of OUtback inverters (5) but not all were to this task. First the starting surge measured by my greenlee clamp-on amp meter was higher on the grid than it is on the inverters. I did a lot of field tests, however I do not know where I put the data. I noticed that if I had fully charged batteries the starting was 100% reliable but on batteries at near 50% SoC the system started to fault on low AC during start-up The batteries were L-16 Surrette 48 volt string. If the system was started every five minutes it would fault, but if a longer waiting period I remember during the course of the job I started the pump over 100 times in test mode with out a failure. (this system gets annual tests and no problems so far) Pumps: We found that the pump current draw depended upon the flow rate we allowed.. If we had one head open, the current draw was less than all heads open. The maximum curent draw was at some flow rate in the middle flow range! The starting surge was independent of whether the valve was open or closed. If it would be possible to use a SQflex this would be a good choise. Finally this system is grid tied and has a relay to Outback if the Grid should fail and it has a generator inlet box if a generator is avaiable to take the load. --- On Fri, 8/27/10, Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, August 27, 2010, 9:50 PM Hi Ray, Thank you for your input. The pump is part of a fire protection system that sucks water out of the swimming pool and pumps it to roof sprinklers with fire retardant added to the water. I'll forward your email to my colleague who has the details. Best regards, Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump Forgot to mention the usual info: look at the pump to see if a smaller or no surge Grundfos SQE might be able to handle the flow rate and pressure needed. Pumps are cheap, when you're considering multiple inverters.. Given what you mentioned (110 amp surge at 240 vac), I don't think even a quad stack of Outbacks could do it. ( please ignore my earlier post) A quad stack could run that, just not start it. Franklin makes a soft start controller, that might work with that pump. What is the Horse power rating? R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 27, 2010, at 3:52 PM, R Ray Walters wrote: Little beyond a pair of Outbacks, possibly a pair of Magnasine inverters, or a quad stack of Outbacks. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 26, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Joel Davidson wrote: Wrenches, Our customer has a fire protection pumping system that operates at 240VAC and 22 amps with a 110 amps starting surge. The pump will only be used for up to 4 hours in an emergency (but hopefully never). The customer wants an inverter and battery (no generator or PV) in case grid power is destroyed by fire. What inverter(s) do you recommend? Thank you very much for sharing your off-grid knowledge. Joel Davidson
Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter for fire protection pump
Little beyond a pair of Outbacks, possibly a pair of Magnasine inverters, or a quad stack of Outbacks. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Aug 26, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Joel Davidson wrote: Wrenches, Our customer has a fire protection pumping system that operates at 240VAC and 22 amps with a 110 amps starting surge. The pump will only be used for up to 4 hours in an emergency (but hopefully never). The customer wants an inverter and battery (no generator or PV) in case grid power is destroyed by fire. What inverter(s) do you recommend? Thank you very much for sharing your off-grid knowledge. Joel Davidson ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
