Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-28 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 


Steve, you folks still sell the Discover 6650 ? that I use alot. It is 
faster than C2, they claim. Not that one would want that offgrid where 
long life is required. Pretty amazing battery for winter genset use.


ROLLS S24-2800LFP & S48-6650LFP ESS OPERATING MANUAL

ENHANCED RUNTIME

* Double the high-current runtime of lead-acid battery
* Up to 100% usable capacity
* Up to 100% depth of discharge

EXTENDED SERVICE LIFE

* 10x the life of lead-acid battery (BCI-06)
* Unlimited Partial State of Charge cycles
* 10-year energy throughput warranty (Requires Registration)

FAST CHARGING

* Up to 5x faster than new lead-acid batteries
* Up to 10x faster than aged lead-acid batteries
* 2X faster charging than C/2 Rated lithium batteries
* 1C continuous charge rate, regardless of SoC

SURGE POWER

* Power for off-grid inverter surge demands
* Up to 3C peak power discharge rate
* 1C continuous discharge ra

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-06-28 8:50 am, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote:


Yes, thanks, Darryl...   I did mean the C/2 or C/3 rate...

[1]
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
[2] [3] [4] [5]

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On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:47 AM Starlight via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:
That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good 
example, Jay.


We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed 
one mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore 
power connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots 
of heat doing so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries 
excluded. Lower operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower 
C rates.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi Jay and all,  I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My 
oldest set of LiFe is almost 10 years?  It has a fastest charge rate of 
C/0.2  because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar.  These batteries 
are doing fine.  I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity 
but


On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote: Hi All


I'm wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs 
pouch?


A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of 
balanced. Tech support didn't suggest higher volts or longer absorb but 
did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It's not in the manual.


Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-28 Thread Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches 
Yes, thanks, Darryl...   I did mean the C/2 or C/3 rate...


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:47 AM Starlight via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good
> example, Jay.
>
> We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed
> one mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore power
> connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots of heat
> doing so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries excluded.
> Lower operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower C rates.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Jay and all,  I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest
> set of LiFe is almost 10 years?  It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2
> because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar.  These batteries are doing
> fine.  I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>>
>> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
>> pouch?
>>
>> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
>> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
>> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>>
>> Wondering what you all think and know
>>
>> Thx
>> Jay
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-28 Thread Starlight via RE-wrenches 
That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good example, 
Jay.

We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed one 
mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore power 
connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots of heat doing 
so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries excluded. Lower 
operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower C rates.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi Jay and all,  I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest set of 
LiFe is almost 10 years?  It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2  because the 10 
kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar.  These batteries are doing fine.  I do not have 
a way of measuring the current capacity but 

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hi All

I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch?

A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of 
balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did 
mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. 

Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-27 Thread Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
Hi Jay and all,  I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest
set of LiFe is almost 10 years?  It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2
because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar.  These batteries are doing
fine.  I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>
> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
> pouch?
>
> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>
> Wondering what you all think and know
>
> Thx
> Jay
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-27 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 


Jay, I do not know/use this brand. Got this off the internet. Looks to 
me like they are telling you max charge is 100A but max life is 30 - 50a 
charge.

only a 5 year warranty so   Good Luck !

 Voltage 51.2V
Capacity 100Ah
Charging Voltage (Bulk/Absorb) 56.2V (+/- 0.2V)
Float 54V (+/- 0.2V)
Low DC Cutoff 47-44V (depending on load - start high, lower if needed)
Charging Current Max Constant Charge: 100A (30-50A recommended)
Discharging Current Max Constant Discharge: 100A

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-06-27 2:01 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:


These are 100 amp hr eg4 48v  batteries.
Tech support said their recommended charge rate per battery is 30-50 
amps.


I asked because Ive never heard this and it still doesn't sound 
correct.


All of the responses have been consistent and I will try to get someone 
higher up to review all this and report back


Thx
Jay

On Jun 27, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi Steve,

My experience is different. First, I don't know of any stationary 
battery systems that have C2 charge ability, many not even C1. A 20kWh 
bank C2 rate would be 40kW or over 770Amps @ 52V. I have 10 years 
experience with Li batteries, (hundreds of Li installations, mobile and 
off grid), and thousands of LiFeBlue Battery customers, low current 
charging works without issues. Most of these systems charge at the high 
end 0.35 C rate or less. Jay did not mention the bank size so we don't 
know the C rate for the 30-50 Amp recommendation. But I guess it is far 
lower than 1C.


Long absorb (CV) times may cause a cell to saturate resulting in rapid 
voltage rise and the BMS protection inhibiting input current. This 
sudden loss of load (essentially a battery disconnect) can cause havoc 
with some inverter/chargers and PV solar controllers. In our 
experience, the best method to set Absorb times for any Li system is by 
trial. If the cell voltages are staying relatively close during 
discharge (6mv in the attached image), then balancing time (> 3.55V CV) 
is sufficient, whether it is 0.1 hours or much more.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(GM, LiFeBlue Battery)

<32ED5403-8A66-4ED5-AFFD-E308D5FC48C6_1_105_c.jpeg>

On Jun 27, 2023, at 6:33 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, 
most want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate.


While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long 
as you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to 
full regularly.   Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, 
they should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate 
damage to the cells.


Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings.   Too 
many people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they 
have parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, 
or the batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers.


In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the 
absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need 
balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get 
that time if you have longer absorb timers.


We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following.   Assuming 
that you are charging at least the C2 Rate.


1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers.
2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins.
3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins.
4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins

[1]
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
[2] [3] [4] [5]

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-

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:
Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS 
is they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop 
charging the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill 
charge.  My oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they 
have been fine


On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote: Hi All


I'm wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs 
pouch?


A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of 
balanced. Tech support didn't suggest higher volts or longer absorb but 
did mention they need

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-27 Thread Jay via RE-wrenches 
These are 100 amp hr eg4 48v  batteries. Tech support said their recommended charge rate per battery is 30-50 amps. I asked because Ive never heard this and it still doesn’t sound correct. All of the responses have been consistent and I will try to get someone higher up to review all this and report backThxJayOn Jun 27, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi Steve,My experience is different. First, I don’t know of any stationary battery systems that have C2 charge ability, many not even C1. A 20kWh bank C2 rate would be 40kW or over 770Amps @ 52V. I have 10 years experience with Li batteries, (hundreds of Li installations, mobile and off grid), and thousands of LiFeBlue Battery customers, low current charging works without issues. Most of these systems charge at the high end 0.35 C rate or less. Jay did not mention the bank size so we don’t know the C rate for the 30-50 Amp recommendation. But I guess it is far lower than 1C.Long absorb (CV) times may cause a cell to saturate resulting in rapid voltage rise and the BMS protection inhibiting input current. This sudden loss of load (essentially a battery disconnect) can cause havoc with some inverter/chargers and PV solar controllers. In our experience, the best method to set Absorb times for any Li system is by trial. If the cell voltages are staying relatively close during discharge (6mv in the attached image), then balancing time (> 3.55V CV) is sufficient, whether it is 0.1 hours or much more.  
Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems(GM, LiFeBlue Battery)

<32ED5403-8A66-4ED5-AFFD-E308D5FC48C6_1_105_c.jpeg>On Jun 27, 2023, at 6:33 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches  wrote:For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, most want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate.    While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long as you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to full regularly.   Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, they should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate damage to the cells. Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings.   Too many people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they have parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, or the batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers. In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get that time if you have longer absorb timers. We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following.   Assuming that you are charging at least the C2 Rate. 1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers. 2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins. 3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins. 4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins Steve Higgins ⋅ 
Technical Services Manager 
 
 
t 
+1.902.597.4020  m 
+1.206.790.5840f +1.902.597.8447  e 
st...@surrette.com 
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies.On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS is they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge.  My oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi All

I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch?

A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. 

Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-27 Thread Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches 
For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, most
want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate.

While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long as
you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to full
regularly.   Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, they
should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate damage to the
cells.

Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings.   Too many
people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they have
parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, or the
batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers.

In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the
absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need
balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get that
time if you have longer absorb timers.

We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following.   Assuming
that you are charging at least the C2 Rate.

1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers.
2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins.
3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins.
4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










--
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the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
destroy this message and all copies.
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On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS is
> they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging
> the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge.  My
> oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>>
>> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
>> pouch?
>>
>> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
>> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
>> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>>
>> Wondering what you all think and know
>>
>> Thx
>> Jay
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
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>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-26 Thread Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS is
they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging
the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge.  My
oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>
> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
> pouch?
>
> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>
> Wondering what you all think and know
>
> Thx
> Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

2023-06-26 Thread Starlight via RE-wrenches 
Hi Jay,

For our LFMP and LFP batteries, it has never mattered. 
 
As long as current is flowing, the SoC is increasing and the voltage will rise 
until it reaches the CV set point.   

Typically cell balance occurs when a cell voltage reaches a set point where a 
load turns on across that cell. Typically about 3.55 V. When we see out of 
balance battery packs, we typically find that the bank has been habitually 
deficit charged. Someone has spread an idea that you should not fully charge 
your Li battery. (Thanks YouTube gurus) This leads to unbalanced cells over 
time. Each cell has a slightly different charge efficiency and the SoC will 
slowly drift. This affects all cells. Unbalanced cells lead to an apparent loss 
of capacity.

We have LFMP banks sitting as back up power for 10 years now with a constant 
3.6Vpc. No problems with just very low current maintaining the bank. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:57 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi All

I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch?

A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of 
balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did 
mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. 

Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay
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