RE: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that?
No, I don't know the child's age. I am assuming, due to the nature of the assignment, that the child is in a grade below 6th. Interesting responses on this one. A lot of light in a very dark area. Ed Darrell Dallas James Maule <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I don't think the child's age or grade is mentioned, and perhaps that makes a difference in how the facts play out. I'd assume, and perhaps in error, that the older the child, the less the child turns to the parent. I can see this fact situation being the dilemma presented to the parents of a third or fourth grader. But what of the middle school or high school student, who at a stage of life where he or she is questioning much of life and struggling with theology (and not interacting as much with parents when it comes to homework other than to assert "Yeah, it's done"), chooses to decorate the page with a drawing of a devil or similar character? I suppose it doesn't matter whether the student is genuinely challenging the theological concept or just being a typical adolescent smart-aleck. If the child belonged, for example, to a family that genuinely practiced a satanic belief system, or perhaps a family that adhered to Wiccan principles, would the school system run into a problem if it docked points for decorations that included drawings of witches, warlocks, and demons? When children are encouraged to express themselves, as is happening with this assignment, does that not open the door to a variety of artistic endeavors that might generate controversy? And I wonder how much guidance or how many suggestions, and if so, of what nature, was provided to the students when they were given the assignment? Note: It very well may be that Ed doesn't know the child's age or grade, or what suggestions were given, etc., but if you do, Ed, it would be interesting and if my thoughts are anywhere near on track, helpful. Jim Maule From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Jamar Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:03 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that? I think he should include the correct text, then handle the revision as a "decoration. But I disagree with Doug -- I think it is really just about learning the text through some creative means so students don't think the recitation is "and to the republic for Richard Stans" and the like. But it seems a close question and I would probably take Doug's position if it were my kids -- and be willing to let them take the docked points for the principle of the thing. Steve On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Douglas Laycock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I would argue that the requirement to decorate the assignment indicates that this is celebrating or honoring the text, and thus more like an affirmation than like a mere requirement that he prove that he knows the official text. And therefore, covered by West Virginia v. Barnette, 324 U.S 629 (1943). He doesn't have to do it. Quoting Ed Darrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Here's a not hypothetical hypothetical for you. A family calls you > late on a Thursday night for advice on an odd point -- their son > thinks the Pledge of Allegiance is too religious, and has arrived at > an odd compromise that works for him in school. But now he has to > write out what it is he says. > > How would you advise the family in this case below? > > I've become aware of a family who has a child who recites the pledge > of allegiance by saying "under law" instead of "under God." > Apparently no one has ever noticed. > > But tonight he has homework to write the pledge of allegiance on paper > and to decorate it. This family is asking what legal ramifications > there might be should a teacher take issue with the child writing > "under law" instead of "under God." > > The homework is due tomorrow, Friday. Can anyone provide anything > helpful that I can convey to the family? Thanks! > > > Not my case, I'm grateful to say. Not my homework, either. > > What should the parents do? > > Ed Darrell > Dallas > Douglas Laycock Yale Kamisar Collegiate Professor of Law University of Michigan Law School 625 S. State St. Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1215 734-647-9713 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the li
RE: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that?
I don't think the child's age or grade is mentioned, and perhaps that makes a difference in how the facts play out. I'd assume, and perhaps in error, that the older the child, the less the child turns to the parent. I can see this fact situation being the dilemma presented to the parents of a third or fourth grader. But what of the middle school or high school student, who at a stage of life where he or she is questioning much of life and struggling with theology (and not interacting as much with parents when it comes to homework other than to assert "Yeah, it's done"), chooses to decorate the page with a drawing of a devil or similar character? I suppose it doesn't matter whether the student is genuinely challenging the theological concept or just being a typical adolescent smart-aleck. If the child belonged, for example, to a family that genuinely practiced a satanic belief system, or perhaps a family that adhered to Wiccan principles, would the school system run into a problem if it docked points for decorations that included drawings of witches, warlocks, and demons? When children are encouraged to express themselves, as is happening with this assignment, does that not open the door to a variety of artistic endeavors that might generate controversy? And I wonder how much guidance or how many suggestions, and if so, of what nature, was provided to the students when they were given the assignment? Note: It very well may be that Ed doesn't know the child's age or grade, or what suggestions were given, etc., but if you do, Ed, it would be interesting and if my thoughts are anywhere near on track, helpful. Jim Maule From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Jamar Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:03 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that? I think he should include the correct text, then handle the revision as a "decoration. But I disagree with Doug -- I think it is really just about learning the text through some creative means so students don't think the recitation is "and to the republic for Richard Stans" and the like. But it seems a close question and I would probably take Doug's position if it were my kids -- and be willing to let them take the docked points for the principle of the thing. Steve On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Douglas Laycock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: I would argue that the requirement to decorate the assignment indicates that this is celebrating or honoring the text, and thus more like an affirmation than like a mere requirement that he prove that he knows the official text. And therefore, covered by West Virginia v. Barnette, 324 U.S 629 (1943). He doesn't have to do it. Quoting Ed Darrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>: > Here's a not hypothetical hypothetical for you. A family calls you > late on a Thursday night for advice on an odd point -- their son > thinks the Pledge of Allegiance is too religious, and has arrived at > an odd compromise that works for him in school. But now he has to > write out what it is he says. > > How would you advise the family in this case below? > > I've become aware of a family who has a child who recites the pledge > of allegiance by saying "under law" instead of "under God." > Apparently no one has ever noticed. > > But tonight he has homework to write the pledge of allegiance on paper > and to decorate it. This family is asking what legal ramifications > there might be should a teacher take issue with the child writing > "under law" instead of "under God." > > The homework is due tomorrow, Friday. Can anyone provide anything > helpful that I can convey to the family? Thanks! > > > Not my case, I'm grateful to say. Not my homework, either. > > What should the parents do? > > Ed Darrell > Dallas > Douglas Laycock Yale Kamisar Collegiate Professor of Law University of Michigan Law School 625 S. State St. Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1215 734-647-9713 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven Jamar Howard University School of Law Associate Director, Institute of Intellectual Property and Social Justice (IIPSJ
JOHN LOFTON / Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that?
Ahh, but was he wearing a flag pin?! That's the important question, right? No! JL John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Steven Jamar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:02 am Subject: Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that? I think he should include the correct text, then handle the revision as a "decoration. But I disagree with Doug -- I think it is really just about learning the text through some creative means so students don't think the recitation is "and to the republic for Richard Stans" and the like. But it seems a close question and I would probably take Doug's position if it were my kids -- and be willing to let them take the docked points for the principle of the thing. Steve On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Douglas Laycock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I would argue that the requirement to decorate the assignment indicates that this is celebrating or honoring the text, and thus more like an affirmation than like a mere requirement that he prove that he knows the official text.? And therefore, covered by West Virginia v. Barnette, 324 U.S 629 (1943).? He doesn't have to do it.? Quoting Ed Darrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Here's a not hypothetical hypothetical for you.? A family calls you > late on a Thursday night for advice on an odd point -- their son > thinks the Pledge of Allegiance is too religious, and has arrived at > an odd compromise that works for him in school.? But now he has to > write out what it is he says. > > How would you advise the family in this case below? > > I've become aware of a family who has a child who recites the pledge > of allegiance by saying "under law" instead of "under God." > Apparently no one has ever noticed. > > But tonight he has homework to write the pledge of allegiance on paper > and to decorate it.? This family is asking what legal ramifications > there might be should a teacher take issue with the child writing > "under law" instead of "under God." > > The homework is due tomorrow, Friday.? Can anyone provide anything > helpful that I can convey to the family?? Thanks! > > > Not my case, I'm grateful to say.? Not my homework, either. > > What should the parents do? > > Ed Darrell > Dallas > ? Douglas Laycock Yale Kamisar Collegiate Professor of Law University of Michigan Law School 625 S. State St. Ann Arbor, MI? 48109-1215 ? 734-647-9713 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. ?Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven Jamar Howard University School of Law Associate Director, Institute of Intellectual Property and Social Justice (IIPSJ) Inc. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that?
I think he should include the correct text, then handle the revision as a "decoration. But I disagree with Doug -- I think it is really just about learning the text through some creative means so students don't think the recitation is "and to the republic for Richard Stans" and the like. But it seems a close question and I would probably take Doug's position if it were my kids -- and be willing to let them take the docked points for the principle of the thing. Steve On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Douglas Laycock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I would argue that the requirement to decorate the assignment indicates > that this is celebrating or honoring the text, and thus more like an > affirmation than like a mere requirement that he prove that he knows the > official text. And therefore, covered by West Virginia v. Barnette, 324 U.S > 629 (1943). He doesn't have to do it. > > Quoting Ed Darrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Here's a not hypothetical hypothetical for you. A family calls you > > late on a Thursday night for advice on an odd point -- their son > > thinks the Pledge of Allegiance is too religious, and has arrived at > > an odd compromise that works for him in school. But now he has to > > write out what it is he says. > > > > How would you advise the family in this case below? > > > > I've become aware of a family who has a child who recites the pledge > > of allegiance by saying "under law" instead of "under God." > > Apparently no one has ever noticed. > > > > But tonight he has homework to write the pledge of allegiance on paper > > and to decorate it. This family is asking what legal ramifications > > there might be should a teacher take issue with the child writing > > "under law" instead of "under God." > > > > The homework is due tomorrow, Friday. Can anyone provide anything > > helpful that I can convey to the family? Thanks! > > > > > > Not my case, I'm grateful to say. Not my homework, either. > > > > What should the parents do? > > > > Ed Darrell > > Dallas > > > > > > Douglas Laycock > Yale Kamisar Collegiate Professor of Law > University of Michigan Law School > 625 S. State St. > Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1215 > 734-647-9713 > > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or > wrongly) forward the messages to others. > -- Prof. Steven Jamar Howard University School of Law Associate Director, Institute of Intellectual Property and Social Justice (IIPSJ) Inc. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that?
I would argue that the requirement to decorate the assignment indicates that this is celebrating or honoring the text, and thus more like an affirmation than like a mere requirement that he prove that he knows the official text. And therefore, covered by West Virginia v. Barnette, 324 U.S 629 (1943). He doesn't have to do it. Quoting Ed Darrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Here's a not hypothetical hypothetical for you. A family calls you > late on a Thursday night for advice on an odd point -- their son > thinks the Pledge of Allegiance is too religious, and has arrived at > an odd compromise that works for him in school. But now he has to > write out what it is he says. > > How would you advise the family in this case below? > > I've become aware of a family who has a child who recites the pledge > of allegiance by saying "under law" instead of "under God." > Apparently no one has ever noticed. > > But tonight he has homework to write the pledge of allegiance on paper > and to decorate it. This family is asking what legal ramifications > there might be should a teacher take issue with the child writing > "under law" instead of "under God." > > The homework is due tomorrow, Friday. Can anyone provide anything > helpful that I can convey to the family? Thanks! > > > Not my case, I'm grateful to say. Not my homework, either. > > What should the parents do? > > Ed Darrell > Dallas > Douglas Laycock Yale Kamisar Collegiate Professor of Law University of Michigan Law School 625 S. State St. Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1215 734-647-9713___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that?
Write "under law," then drip a drop of chocolate ice cream on that spot so it smudges and can't be read. ** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547) ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that?
Here's a not hypothetical hypothetical for you. A family calls you late on a Thursday night for advice on an odd point -- their son thinks the Pledge of Allegiance is too religious, and has arrived at an odd compromise that works for him in school. But now he has to write out what it is he says. How would you advise the family in this case below? I've become aware of a family who has a child who recites the pledge of allegiance by saying "under law" instead of "under God." Apparently no one has ever noticed. But tonight he has homework to write the pledge of allegiance on paper and to decorate it. This family is asking what legal ramifications there might be should a teacher take issue with the child writing "under law" instead of "under God." The homework is due tomorrow, Friday. Can anyone provide anything helpful that I can convey to the family? Thanks! Not my case, I'm grateful to say. Not my homework, either. What should the parents do? Ed Darrell Dallas ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
