RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com
1) Brayton seems to be confusing myth with statistical correlated fact, that when we stopped teaching Biblical morality, children stopped behaving according to Biblical morality. Nobody here disputes violent crime, divorce, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, and single-parenthood have increased since 1960. If nobody here cares (as Ed supposes) about the social consequences of radical interpretations, we truly have become a cold, calloused, nation of selfish lawyers indeed. 2) Brayton's view that Bibles should be banned from schools remains on the atheist fringe of constitutional legal scholars, including the U.S. Supreme Court has held that public schools may teach students about the Bible as long as such teaching is presented objectively as part of a secular program of education. (6School District of Abington Twp v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 225 (1963). See Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 42 (1980) (per curiam)). 3) This permissive view Supreme Court view is endorsed by both liberal and conservative legal scholars, in Charles' excellent document The Bible and Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261) including: American Association of School Administrators American Federation of Teachers American Jewish Committee American Jewish Congress Anti-Defamation League Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs Christian Educators Association International Christian Legal Society Council on Islamic Education National Association of Evangelicals National Association of Secondary School Principals National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. National Council for the Social Studies National Education Association National School Boards Association People for the American Way Foundation Union of American Hebrew Congregations 4) When Brayton places himself far left of People for the American Way, you can tell he's on the fringe, and I'm in the mainstream. But at least he's highly educated, unlike the rest of these organizations, who seem to agree with me. In Jesus, Chaplain K., Ed Brayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:This list is for discussion of the legal and constitutional issues, not for the imagined social consequences. Im afraid youll have to peddle the myth that the country went to hell when we kicked God out of schools to a different (perhaps less educated) audience. Ed Brayton From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon James Klingenschmitt Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:53 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Ed writes about teaching about the Bible (as an optional elective) in public schools, the result is going to be very ugly and very expensive. Yet leading cultural indicators show that since 1960 in America, violent crime has increased by 560 percent, illegitimate birth rates have increased more than 400 percent, teen suicide is up over 200 percent, the divorce rate has more than doubled, and the percentage of families headed by a single parent has more than tripled. It seems to me, thanks to courts and judges that enforce state atheism and Ed's social experiment upon our families and children, by taking Bibles and prayer OUT of public schools, that... the result has already been very ugly and very expensive. In Jesus name, Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt Charles Haynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much more guidance is needed (along the lines suggested in the consensus guidelines we issued in 2000 -- The Bible and Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261. What puzzles me, however, is why the State Board fails to mention the requirements for training as outlined in Section 21.549 of the Texas Bible Bill. Perhaps that is the next step... but there is no mention of it in the the board's decision this week. If the training requirements mandated by the bill are followed, then many of the problems might be avoided... But with groups out there pushing unconstitutional Bible materials (such as those at issue in the recently-settled lawsuit in Odessa) it will be difficult to monitor what is going on across the state. Charles Haynes 21.459. BIBLE COURSE TRAINING. (a) The commissioner shall develop and make available training materials and other teacher training resources for a school district to use in assisting teachers of elective Bible courses in developing: (1) expertise in the appropriate Bible course curriculum; (2) understanding of applicable supreme court rulings and current constitutional law regarding how Bible courses are to be taught in public schools objectively as a part of a secular program of education; (3) understanding of how to present the Bible
RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com
I guess parents and churches are either not doing their jobs or are just not enough Perhaps we should removal all children from their homes (since they are obviously not getting the moral training they need) and lock them in schools that have bible classes. Surely that will stem the tide. Joel L. Sogol Attorney at Law 811 21st Ave. Tuscaloosa, ALabama 35401 ph (205) 345-0966 fx (205) 345-0971 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight - which is why we have evidence rules in U.S. courts. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon James Klingenschmitt Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:12 PM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com 1) Brayton seems to be confusing myth with statistical correlated fact, that when we stopped teaching Biblical morality, children stopped behaving according to Biblical morality. Nobody here disputes violent crime, divorce, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, and single-parenthood have increased since 1960. If nobody here cares (as Ed supposes) about the social consequences of radical interpretations, we truly have become a cold, calloused, nation of selfish lawyers indeed. 2) Brayton's view that Bibles should be banned from schools remains on the atheist fringe of constitutional legal scholars, including the U.S. Supreme Court has held that public schools may teach students about the Bible as long as such teaching is presented objectively as part of a secular program of education. (6School District of Abington Twp v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 225 (1963). See Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 42 (1980) (per curiam)). 3) This permissive view Supreme Court view is endorsed by both liberal and conservative legal scholars, in Charles' excellent document The Bible and Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261) including: American Association of School Administrators American Federation of Teachers American Jewish Committee American Jewish Congress Anti-Defamation League Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs Christian Educators Association International Christian Legal Society Council on Islamic Education National Association of Evangelicals National Association of Secondary School Principals National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. National Council for the Social Studies National Education Association National School Boards Association People for the American Way Foundation Union of American Hebrew Congregations 4) When Brayton places himself far left of People for the American Way, you can tell he's on the fringe, and I'm in the mainstream. But at least he's highly educated, unlike the rest of these organizations, who seem to agree with me. In Jesus, Chaplain K., Ed Brayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me, thanks to courts and judges that enforce state atheism and Ed's social experiment upon our families and children, by taking Bibles and prayer OUT of public schools, that... the result has already been very ugly and very expensive. In Jesus name, Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt Charles Haynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much more guidance is needed (along the lines suggested in the consensus guidelines we issued in 2000 -- The Bible and Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261. What puzzles me, however, is why the State Board fails to mention the requirements for training as outlined in Section 21.549 of the Texas Bible Bill. Perhaps that is the next step... but there is no mention of it in the the board's decision this week. If the training requirements mandated by the bill are followed, then many of the problems might be avoided... But with groups out there pushing unconstitutional Bible materials (such as those at issue in the recently-settled lawsuit in Odessa) it will be difficult to monitor what is going on across the state. Charles Haynes 21.459. BIBLE COURSE TRAINING. (a) The commissioner shall develop and make available training materials and other teacher training resources for a school district to use in assisting teachers of elective Bible courses in developing: (1) expertise in the appropriate Bible course curriculum; (2) understanding of applicable supreme court rulings and current constitutional law regarding how Bible courses are to be taught in public schools objectively as a part of a secular program of education; (3) understanding of how to present the Bible in an objective, academic manner that neither promotes nor disparages religion, nor is taught from a particular sectarian point of view; (4) proficiency in instructional approaches that present course material in a manner that respects all faiths and religious traditions, while favoring none; and (5
RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com
I agree that much more guidance is needed (along the lines suggested in the consensus guidelines we issued in 2000 -- The Bible and Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261. What puzzles me, however, is why the State Board fails to mention the requirements for training as outlined in Section 21.549 of the Texas Bible Bill. Perhaps that is the next step... but there is no mention of it in the the board's decision this week. If the training requirements mandated by the bill are followed, then many of the problems might be avoided... But with groups out there pushing unconstitutional Bible materials (such as those at issue in the recently-settled lawsuit in Odessa) it will be difficult to monitor what is going on across the state. Charles Haynes . 21.459. BIBLE COURSE TRAINING. (a) The commissioner shall develop and make available training materials and other teacher training resources for a school district to use in assisting teachers of elective Bible courses in developing: (1) expertise in the appropriate Bible course curriculum; (2) understanding of applicable supreme court rulings and current constitutional law regarding how Bible courses are to be taught in public schools objectively as a part of a secular program of education; (3) understanding of how to present the Bible in an objective, academic manner that neither promotes nor disparages religion, nor is taught from a particular sectarian point of view; (4) proficiency in instructional approaches that present course material in a manner that respects all faiths and religious traditions, while favoring none; and (5) expertise in how to avoid devotional content or proselytizing in the classroom. (b) The commissioner shall develop materials and resources under this section in consultation with appropriate faculty members at institutions of higher education. (c) The commissioner shall make the training materials and other teacher training resources required under Subsection (a) available to Bible course teachers through access to in-service training. (d) The commissioner shall use funds appropriated for the purpose to administer this section. Charles Haynes The Freedom Forum First Amendment Center 555 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20001 202/292-6293 - office 703/683-1924 home office From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ed Brayton Sent: Tue 7/22/2008 1:56 AM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Having seen some of the material already at use in many Bible courses in Texas, I can only say that the State board of education is being incredibly irresponsible in not spelling out exactly what can and can't be taught in such classes. Local school districts are inevitably going to teach this course in constitutionally dubious ways without such guidance. Terri Leo claims that providing such guidelines might lead to a lawsuit; not providing them is going to lead to many such suits - and sooner rather than later. They are doing the same thing the Louisiana legislature is doing with the recent academic freedom legislation, inviting local schools into a Dover trap. The result is going to be very ugly and very expensive. Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:20 PM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Justice Brennan's well-known statement, concurring in Schempp, 374 US at 300: teaching about the Bible in classes in literature or history is permissible. As literature, surely teaching about the Bible is different from other literature items, distinctively involving the necessity of treating these issues: The fact that some people believe it (or some of it) is the word of God -- others believe that it is essential to understanding their religion -- others believe it is interesting literature but otherwise irrelevant -- and thinking internationally, it is one several books presenting similar issues, e.g., the Koran. Arguably, if teachers are not so advised/trained, there are indeed critical church-state issues. Dan Daniel G. Gibbens Regents' Professor of Law Emeritus University of Oklahoma -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel Sogol Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:41 AM To: Religionlaw Subject: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25742567/ Joel Sogol ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com
Ed writes about teaching about the Bible (as an optional elective) in public schools, the result is going to be very ugly and very expensive. Yet leading cultural indicators show that since 1960 in America, violent crime has increased by 560 percent, illegitimate birth rates have increased more than 400 percent, teen suicide is up over 200 percent, the divorce rate has more than doubled, and the percentage of families headed by a single parent has more than tripled. It seems to me, thanks to courts and judges that enforce state atheism and Ed's social experiment upon our families and children, by taking Bibles and prayer OUT of public schools, that... the result has already been very ugly and very expensive. In Jesus name, Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt Charles Haynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much more guidance is needed (along the lines suggested in the consensus guidelines we issued in 2000 -- The Bible and Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261. What puzzles me, however, is why the State Board fails to mention the requirements for training as outlined in Section 21.549 of the Texas Bible Bill. Perhaps that is the next step... but there is no mention of it in the the board's decision this week. If the training requirements mandated by the bill are followed, then many of the problems might be avoided... But with groups out there pushing unconstitutional Bible materials (such as those at issue in the recently-settled lawsuit in Odessa) it will be difficult to monitor what is going on across the state. Charles Haynes 21.459. BIBLE COURSE TRAINING. (a) The commissioner shall develop and make available training materials and other teacher training resources for a school district to use in assisting teachers of elective Bible courses in developing: (1) expertise in the appropriate Bible course curriculum; (2) understanding of applicable supreme court rulings and current constitutional law regarding how Bible courses are to be taught in public schools objectively as a part of a secular program of education; (3) understanding of how to present the Bible in an objective, academic manner that neither promotes nor disparages religion, nor is taught from a particular sectarian point of view; (4) proficiency in instructional approaches that present course material in a manner that respects all faiths and religious traditions, while favoring none; and (5) expertise in how to avoid devotional content or proselytizing in the classroom. (b) The commissioner shall develop materials and resources under this section in consultation with appropriate faculty members at institutions of higher education. (c) The commissioner shall make the training materials and other teacher training resources required under Subsection (a) available to Bible course teachers through access to in-service training. (d) The commissioner shall use funds appropriated for the purpose to administer this section. Charles Haynes The Freedom Forum First Amendment Center 555 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20001 202/292-6293 - office 703/683-1924 home office From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ed Brayton Sent: Tue 7/22/2008 1:56 AM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Having seen some of the material already at use in many Bible courses in Texas, I can only say that the State board of education is being incredibly irresponsible in not spelling out exactly what can and can't be taught in such classes. Local school districts are inevitably going to teach this course in constitutionally dubious ways without such guidance. Terri Leo claims that providing such guidelines might lead to a lawsuit; not providing them is going to lead to many such suits - and sooner rather than later. They are doing the same thing the Louisiana legislature is doing with the recent academic freedom legislation, inviting local schools into a Dover trap. The result is going to be very ugly and very expensive. Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:20 PM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Justice Brennan's well-known statement, concurring in Schempp, 374 US at 300: teaching about the Bible in classes in literature or history is permissible. As literature, surely teaching about the Bible is different from other literature items, distinctively involving the necessity of treating these issues: The fact that some people believe it (or some of it) is the word of God -- others believe that it is essential to understanding their religion -- others believe it is interesting
RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com
develop materials and resources under this section in consultation with appropriate faculty members at institutions of higher education. (c) The commissioner shall make the training materials and other teacher training resources required under Subsection (a) available to Bible course teachers through access to in-service training. (d) The commissioner shall use funds appropriated for the purpose to administer this section. Charles Haynes The Freedom Forum First Amendment Center 555 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20001 202/292-6293 - office 703/683-1924 home office From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ed Brayton Sent: Tue 7/22/2008 1:56 AM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Having seen some of the material already at use in many Bible courses in Texas, I can only say that the State board of education is being incredibly irresponsible in not spelling out exactly what can and can't be taught in such classes. Local school districts are inevitably going to teach this course in constitutionally dubious ways without such guidance. Terri Leo claims that providing such guidelines might lead to a lawsuit; not providing them is going to lead to many such suits - and sooner rather than later. They are doing the same thing the Louisiana legislature is doing with the recent academic freedom legislation, inviting local schools into a Dover trap. The result is going to be very ugly and very expensive. Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:20 PM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Justice Brennan's well-known statement, concurring in Schempp, 374 US at 300: teaching about the Bible in classes in literature or history is permissible. As literature, surely teaching about the Bible is different from other literature items, distinctively involving the necessity of treating these issues: The fact that some people believe it (or some of it) is the word of God -- others believe that it is essential to understanding their religion -- others believe it is interesting literature but otherwise irrelevant -- and thinking internationally, it is one several books presenting similar issues, e.g., the Koran. Arguably, if teachers are not so advised/trained, there are indeed critical church-state issues. Dan Daniel G. Gibbens Regents' Professor of Law Emeritus University of Oklahoma -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel Sogol Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:41 AM To: Religionlaw Subject: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25742567/ Joel Sogol ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe
RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com
This list is for discussion of the legal and constitutional issues, not for the imagined social consequences. I'm afraid you'll have to peddle the myth that the country went to hell when we kicked God out of schools to a different (perhaps less educated) audience. Ed Brayton From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon James Klingenschmitt Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:53 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Ed writes about teaching about the Bible (as an optional elective) in public schools, the result is going to be very ugly and very expensive. Yet leading cultural indicators show that since 1960 in America, violent crime has increased by 560 percent, illegitimate birth rates have increased more than 400 percent, teen suicide is up over 200 percent, the divorce rate has more than doubled, and the percentage of families headed by a single parent has more than tripled. It seems to me, thanks to courts and judges that enforce state atheism and Ed's social experiment upon our families and children, by taking Bibles and prayer OUT of public schools, that... the result has already been very ugly and very expensive. In Jesus name, Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt Charles Haynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much more guidance is needed (along the lines suggested in the consensus guidelines we issued in 2000 -- The Bible and Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261. What puzzles me, however, is why the State Board fails to mention the requirements for training as outlined in Section 21.549 of the Texas Bible Bill. Perhaps that is the next step... but there is no mention of it in the the board's decision this week. If the training requirements mandated by the bill are followed, then many of the problems might be avoided... But with groups out there pushing unconstitutional Bible materials (such as those at issue in the recently-settled lawsuit in Odessa) it will be difficult to monitor what is going on across the state. Charles Haynes 21.459. BIBLE COURSE TRAINING. (a) The commissioner shall develop and make available training materials and other teacher training resources for a school district to use in assisting teachers of elective Bible courses in developing: (1) expertise in the appropriate Bible course curriculum; (2) understanding of applicable supreme court rulings and current constitutional law regarding how Bible courses are to be taught in public schools objectively as a part of a secular program of education; (3) understanding of how to present the Bible in an objective, academic manner that neither promotes nor disparages religion, nor is taught from a particular sectarian point of view; (4) proficiency in instructional approaches that present course material in a manner that respects all faiths and religious traditions, while favoring none; and (5) expertise in how to avoid devotional content or proselytizing in the classroom. (b) The commissioner shall develop materials and resources under this section in consultation with appropriate faculty members at institutions of higher education. (c) The commissioner shall make the training materials and other teacher training resources required under Subsection (a) available to Bible course teachers through access to in-service training. (d) The commissioner shall use funds appropriated for the purpose to administer this section. Charles Haynes The Freedom Forum First Amendment Center 555 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20001 202/292-6293 - office 703/683-1924 home office From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ed Brayton Sent: Tue 7/22/2008 1:56 AM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Having seen some of the material already at use in many Bible courses in Texas, I can only say that the State board of education is being incredibly irresponsible in not spelling out exactly what can and can't be taught in such classes. Local school districts are inevitably going to teach this course in constitutionally dubious ways without such guidance. Terri Leo claims that providing such guidelines might lead to a lawsuit; not providing them is going to lead to many such suits - and sooner rather than later. They are doing the same thing the Louisiana legislature is doing with the recent academic freedom legislation, inviting local schools into a Dover trap. The result is going to be very ugly and very expensive. Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:20 PM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Justice Brennan's well
RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com
Justice Brennan's well-known statement, concurring in Schempp, 374 US at 300: teaching about the Bible in classes in literature or history is permissible. As literature, surely teaching about the Bible is different from other literature items, distinctively involving the necessity of treating these issues: The fact that some people believe it (or some of it) is the word of God -- others believe that it is essential to understanding their religion -- others believe it is interesting literature but otherwise irrelevant -- and thinking internationally, it is one several books presenting similar issues, e.g., the Koran. Arguably, if teachers are not so advised/trained, there are indeed critical church-state issues. Dan Daniel G. Gibbens Regents' Professor of Law Emeritus University of Oklahoma -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel Sogol Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:41 AM To: Religionlaw Subject: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25742567/ Joel Sogol ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com
Having seen some of the material already at use in many Bible courses in Texas, I can only say that the State board of education is being incredibly irresponsible in not spelling out exactly what can and can't be taught in such classes. Local school districts are inevitably going to teach this course in constitutionally dubious ways without such guidance. Terri Leo claims that providing such guidelines might lead to a lawsuit; not providing them is going to lead to many such suits - and sooner rather than later. They are doing the same thing the Louisiana legislature is doing with the recent academic freedom legislation, inviting local schools into a Dover trap. The result is going to be very ugly and very expensive. Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:20 PM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com Justice Brennan's well-known statement, concurring in Schempp, 374 US at 300: teaching about the Bible in classes in literature or history is permissible. As literature, surely teaching about the Bible is different from other literature items, distinctively involving the necessity of treating these issues: The fact that some people believe it (or some of it) is the word of God -- others believe that it is essential to understanding their religion -- others believe it is interesting literature but otherwise irrelevant -- and thinking internationally, it is one several books presenting similar issues, e.g., the Koran. Arguably, if teachers are not so advised/trained, there are indeed critical church-state issues. Dan Daniel G. Gibbens Regents' Professor of Law Emeritus University of Oklahoma -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel Sogol Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:41 AM To: Religionlaw Subject: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25742567/ Joel Sogol ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
