RE: Rep. Harris (R-Fla.) on Church and State
God is absolutely in control. "By me kings reign and rulers decree justice By me princes rule, and nobles all the judges of the earth." Proverbs 8:15-16 (NKJV) Debra Cook -- Original message -- From: Gordon James Klingenschmitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] AlthoughI'm not a lawyer, I am working on my PhD in Theology, and of course my Navy Chaplain issues put me attheintersection of church and state...so perhaps I'm qualified tocomment on Senator-candidate Katherine Harris' comments about "separation" and legislating "God's will." 1) I said essentially the same thing as Ms. Harrisin my 1999interview with US News and World Report (paraphrased from my memory): "Many Americans want to electpoliticians wholegislate tolerance of sin,just so they won't have to forsake their favorite sins. But God will nevermake sin legal. Won't itbe tragic one day, whenAmerican citizens standbefore God to be judged, and say 'but I thought that was legal...' and discover (too late) that God disagrees. Government's highest duty then, is to pass laws God agrees with, lest itdo its citizens an eternal disservice." 2) Many anti-Christians quote "separation of church and state" as if that somehow means Christians aren't allowed to vote. But we who shareChristian values have just as much right to vote, lobby, advocate, publish, and legislate our values as any other citizens.Liberals often use thephrase "separation" as a means to intimidate and silence Christian voters from fully participating. But we will not be silenced, nor shouldwe be intimidated. 3) The First Amendment doesn't prohibit the legislation of "Christian" laws, any more than it prohibits the legislation of "Muslim" values or "Atheist" values or "Sandy Levinson's" values. Theoretically we could organize and legislatethe Ten Commandments directly into the U.S. Constitution, if we had 2/3rdof Senators and 3/4 of the States to vote them in. Perhapsthat would angeranti-Christian voters, but then we're angered by their pro-abortion/pro-homosexual laws too. 4) PresidentBush shouldn't disown her comments, rather it's possible heagrees with her theology. Here's a clip from 1999 interview of Meet The Press: MR. RUSSERT: Reverend Land, The Washington Post reported this: "'I believe God wants me to be president,' the Rev. Richard Land, head of the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, quoted George Bush as saying." When did George Bush tell you that? DR. RICHARD LAND: Well, he told me that--he told a group of us that the day he was inaugurated for his second term as governor of the state in 1999. 5) I disagree theologically, however,with both of them, if they believe as Katherine Harris says,'God is the one who chooses our rulers.' There's ample evidenceto the contrary, that the Devil himself often chooses our rulers, and evil morals are legislated by those who campaign (and win) on platforms announcing their intention to legislatethe devil's will. Somewrongly assume all "American" laws are the same as "God's" laws. But God himselfdisagrees with many American laws on the books, for example, the new Navy policy that prohibits chaplains from praying "in Jesus name"outside the chapel. Our duty is always to fight the devil, and his laws. 6) When American law conflicts with God's law, Christians have a duty to disobey human law, and obey God's law.Our duty towardcivil disobediencehas been recognized by great Americans throughout history, for example Martin Luther King, Patrick Henry, the Founding Fathers (Declaration of Independence) etc. 7) The very notion of our 3-branch system of Government (President, Congress, Courts) came from the Bible, and is patterned after God's personality, from Isaiah 33:22: "For the LORD is our judge,the LORD is our lawgiver,the LORD is our king;it is he who will save us." We must therefore votewhat God has told our conscience to legislate,what we know is right, and we must never legislate evil. If our government ceases to reflect God's personality, woe to us all, for the devil's tyranny will become a heavy yoke upon our necks, and true Christian Liberty will be lost forever. Gordon James Klingenschmitt www.persuade.tv Sanford Levinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:28:48 -0500From: "Sanford Levinson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Law Religion issues for Law Academics" religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduSubject: RE: Rep. Harris (R-Fla.) on Church and State So what will the Bushes do? Is she going to be the second Republican senatorial candidate to be disowned? But the Democratic candidate is scarcely so compatible to Republicans as Joe Lieberman. Incidentally, given her apparent belief that God casts the relevant vote in all elections, will she interpret her own likely repudiation by the voters of Florida as a sign that God
RE: Rep. Harris (R-Fla.) on Church and State
Arent theological claims a bit beyond the scope of the discussion on this listserv? I have no problem with theological claims, and would have no problem discussing this claim. But not here. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Law Religion issues for Law Academics; UCLA Law Class Subject: RE: Rep. Harris (R-Fla.) on Church and State God is absolutely in control. By me kings reign and rulers decree justice By me princes rule, and nobles all the judges of the earth. Proverbs 8:15-16 (NKJV) Debra Cook -- Original message -- From: Gordon James Klingenschmitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] AlthoughI'm not a lawyer, I am working on my PhD in Theology, and of course my Navy Chaplain issues put me attheintersection of church and state...so perhaps I'm qualified tocomment on Senator-candidate Katherine Harris' comments about separation and legislating God's will. 1) I said essentially the same thing as Ms. Harrisin my 1999interview with US News and World Report (paraphrased from my memory): Many Americans want to electpoliticians wholegislate tolerance of sin,just so they won't have to forsake their favorite sins. But God will nevermake sin legal. Won't itbe tragic one day, whenAmerican citizens standbefore God to be judged, and say 'but I thought that was legal...' and discover (too late) that God disagrees. Government's highest duty then, is to pass laws God agrees with, lest itdo its citizens an eternal disservice. 2) Many anti-Christians quote separation of church and state as if that somehow means Christians aren't allowed to vote. But we who shareChristian values have just as much right to vote, lobby, advocate, publish, and legislate our values as any other citizens.Liberals often use thephrase separation as a means to intimidate and silence Christian voters from fully participating. But we will not be silenced, nor shouldwe be intimidated. 3) The First Amendment doesn't prohibit the legislation of Christian laws, any more than it prohibits the legislation of Muslim values or Atheist values or Sandy Levinson's values. Theoretically we could organize and legislatethe Ten Commandments directly into the U.S. Constitution, if we had 2/3rdof Senators and 3/4 of the States to vote them in. Perhapsthat would angeranti-Christian voters, but then we're angered by their pro-abortion/pro-homosexual laws too. 4) PresidentBush shouldn't disown her comments, rather it's possible heagrees with her theology. Here's a clip from 1999 interview of Meet The Press: MR. RUSSERT: Reverend Land, The Washington Post reported this: 'I believe God wants me to be president,' the Rev. Richard Land, head of the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, quoted George Bush as saying. When did George Bush tell you that? DR. RICHARD LAND: Well, he told me that--he told a group of us that the day he was inaugurated for his second term as governor of the state in 1999. 5) I disagree theologically, however,with both of them, if they believe as Katherine Harris says,'God is the one who chooses our rulers.' There's ample evidenceto the contrary, that the Devil himself often chooses our rulers, and evil morals are legislated by those who campaign (and win) on platforms announcing their intention to legislatethe devil's will. Somewrongly assume all American laws are the same as God's laws. But God himselfdisagrees with many American laws on the books, for example, the new Navy policy that prohibits chaplains from praying in Jesus nameoutside the chapel. Our duty is always to fight the devil, and his laws. 6) When American law conflicts with God's law, Christians have a duty to disobey human law, and obey God's law.Our duty towardcivil disobediencehas been recognized by great Americans throughout history, for example Martin Luther King, Patrick Henry, the Founding Fathers (Declaration of Independence) etc. 7) The very notion of our 3-branch system of Government (President, Congress, Courts) came from the Bible, and is patterned after God's personality, from Isaiah 33:22: For the LORD is our judge,the LORD is our lawgiver,the LORD is our king;it is he who will save us. We must therefore votewhat God has told our conscience to legislate,what we know is right, and we must never legislate evil. If our government ceases to reflect God's personality, woe to us all, for the devil's tyranny will become a heavy yoke upon our necks, and true Christian Liberty will be lost forever. Gordon James Klingenschmitt www.persuade.tv Sanford Levinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:28:48 -0500 From: Sanford Levinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: RE: Rep
Re: Rep. Harris (R-Fla.) on Church and State
On Aug 28, 2006, at 11:11 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: God is absolutely in control. By me kings reign and rulers decree justice By me princes rule, and nobles all the judges of the earth. Proverbs 8:15-16 (NKJV) Debra Cook With all due respect, Ms. Cook, I see no reference to elected officials in that particular verse. Nor do we have any princes or noble class in the United States. And frankly, the rulers of this land AREN'T decreeing justice. So ultimately, we can waste our time debating whether or not your god is in control--but this isn't the place for it. We are a secular nation, not a theocracy. If your god has a problem with that, your god can certainly make it clear if s/he chooses. Which s/he hasn't done to my satisfaction, and so IMNSHO, has left it up to you and me to make what we will of this nation. Leave your god out of the discussion, if you please. Jean Dudley ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Rep. Harris (R-Fla.) on Church and State
So what will the Bushes do? Is she going to be the second Republican senatorial candidate to be disowned? But the Democratic candidate is scarcely so compatible to Republicans as Joe Lieberman. Incidentally, given her apparent belief that God casts the relevant vote in all elections, will she interpret her own likely repudiation by the voters of Florida as a sign that God may actually support separation? sandy Rep. Harris Condemns Separation of Church, State By Jim Stratton Orlando Sentinel Saturday, August 26, 2006; A09 ORLANDO, Aug. 25 -- Rep. Katherine Harris (R-Fla.) said this week that God did not intend for the United States to be a nation of secular laws and that the separation of church and state is a lie we have been told to keep religious people out of politics. If you're not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin, Harris told interviewers from the Florida Baptist Witness, the weekly journal of the Florida Baptist State Convention. She cited abortion and same-sex marriage as examples of that sin. Harris, a candidate in the Sept. 5 Republican primary for U.S. Senate, said her religious beliefs animate everything she does, including her votes in Congress. Witness editors interviewed candidates for office, asking them to describe their faith and their positions on certain issues. Harris has always professed a deep Christian faith. But she has rarely expressed such a fervent evangelical perspective publicly. Political and religious officials responded to her published remarks with outrage and dismay. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) said she was disgusted by the comments and deeply disappointed in Representative Harris personally. Harris, Wasserman Schultz said, clearly shows that she does not deserve to be a representative. Ruby Brooks, a veteran Tampa Bay Republican activist, said Harris's remarks were offensive to me as a Christian and a Republican. This notion that you've been chosen or anointed, it's offensive, Brooks said. We hurt our cause with that more than we help it. Harris told the journalists we have to have the faithful in government because that is God's will. Separating religion and politics is so wrong because God is the one who chooses our rulers, she said. And if we are the ones not actively involved in electing those godly men and women, then we're going to have a nation of secular laws. That's not what our Founding Fathers intended, and that certainly isn't what God intended. Harris campaign spokeswoman Jennifer Marks would not answer questions about the Harris interview. Instead, she released a two-sentence statement. Congresswoman Harris encourages Americans from all walks of life and faith to participate in our government, it stated. She continues to be an unwavering advocate of religious rights and freedoms. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Rep. Harris (R-Fla.) on Church and State
AlthoughI'm not a lawyer, I am working on my PhD in Theology, and of course my Navy Chaplain issues put me attheintersection of church and state...so perhaps I'm qualified tocomment on Senator-candidate Katherine Harris' comments about "separation" and legislating "God's will." 1) I said essentially the same thing as Ms. Harrisin my 1999interview with US News and World Report (paraphrased from my memory): "Many Americans want to electpoliticians wholegislate tolerance of sin,just so they won't have to forsake their favorite sins. But God will nevermake sin legal. Won't itbe tragic one day, whenAmerican citizens standbefore God to be judged, and say 'but I thought that was legal...' and discover (too late) that God disagrees. Government's highest duty then, is to pass laws God agrees with, lest itdo its citizens an eternal disservice." 2) Many anti-Christians quote "separation of church and state" as if that somehow means Christians aren't allowed to vote. But we who shareChristian values have just as much right to vote, lobby, advocate, publish, and legislate our values as any other citizens.Liberals often use thephrase "separation" as a means to intimidate and silence Christian voters from fully participating. But we will not be silenced, nor shouldwe be intimidated. 3) The First Amendment doesn't prohibit the legislation of "Christian" laws, any more than it prohibits the legislation of "Muslim" values or "Atheist" values or "Sandy Levinson's" values. Theoretically we could organize and legislatethe Ten Commandments directly into the U.S. Constitution, if we had 2/3rdof Senators and 3/4 of the States to vote them in. Perhapsthat would angeranti-Christian voters, but then we're angered by their pro-abortion/pro-homosexual laws too. 4) PresidentBush shouldn't disown her comments, rather it's possible heagrees with her theology. Here's a clip from 1999 interview of Meet The Press: MR. RUSSERT: Reverend Land, The Washington Post reported this: "'I believe God wants me to be president,' the Rev. Richard Land, head of the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, quoted George Bush as saying." When did George Bush tell you that? DR. RICHARD LAND: Well, he told me that--he told a group of us that the day he was inaugurated for his second term as governor of the state in 1999.5) I disagree theologically, however,with both of them, if they believe as Katherine Harris says,'God is the one who chooses our rulers.' There's ample evidenceto the contrary, that the Devil himself often chooses our rulers, and evil morals are legislated by those who campaign (and win) on platforms announcing their intention to legislatethe devil's will. Somewrongly assume all "American" laws are the same as "God's" laws. But God himselfdisagrees with many American laws on the books, for example, the new Navy policy that prohibits chaplains from praying "in Jesus name"outside the chapel. Our duty is always to fight the devil, and his laws. 6) When American law conflicts with God's law, Christians have a duty to disobey human law, and obey God's law.Our duty towardcivil disobediencehas been recognized by great Americans throughout history, for example Martin Luther King, Patrick Henry, the Founding Fathers (Declaration of Independence) etc. 7) The very notion of our 3-branch system of Government (President, Congress, Courts) came from the Bible, and is patterned after God's personality, from Isaiah 33:22: "For the LORD is our judge,the LORD is our lawgiver,the LORD is our king;it is he who will save us." We must therefore votewhat God has told our conscience to legislate,what we know is right, and we must never legislate evil. If our government ceases to reflect God's personality, woe to us all, for the devil's tyranny will become a heavy yoke upon our necks, and true Christian Liberty will be lost forever.Gordon James Klingenschmitt www.persuade.tv Sanford Levinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:28:48 -0500From: "Sanford Levinson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Law Religion issues for Law Academics" religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduSubject: RE: Rep. Harris (R-Fla.) on Church and StateSo what will the Bushes do? Is she going to be the second Republican senatorial candidate to be disowned? But the Democratic candidate is scarcely so compatible to Republicans as Joe Lieberman. Incidentally, given her apparent belief that God casts the relevant vote in all elections, will she interpret her own likely repudiation by the voters of Florida as a sign that God may actually support separation? sandyRep. Harris Condemns Separation of Church, State By Jim StrattonOrlando SentinelSaturday, August 26, 2006; A09 ORLANDO, Aug. 25 -- Rep. Katherine Harris (R-Fla.) said this week that God did not inte
