Re: Jesus for President?

[Gordon James Klingenschmitt]

Great questions, Susan and Paul
   
  On the contrary, true separation would require the military chaplain prays 
the same way his civilian bishop requires (even in public), NOT the way the 
commanding officer orders him to pray.  When a commander orders a chaplain to 
censor his public prayers, violate his religious orders, and pray to the 
government's "civic god" or face government punishment, (as I faced), certainly 
the government has established (and enforced) a non-sectarian state religion, 
and forced it on all chaplains and all Sailors of diverse faiths.  The better 
solution is to take turns and let each pray according to the dictates of his 
own conscience, without enforcing conformity to one "government-sanitized" 
faith expression.  
   
  Federal law agrees with me, and since 1860 has protected chaplains rights, 
today codified in 10 USC 6031:  "An officer in the chaplain corps may conduct 
public worship according to the manner and forms of the church of which he is a 
member."
   
  And the Supreme Court has already ruled against government enforced 
"non-sectarian prayer content" in 1991 Lee vs. Weisman:  
   
  
  "The government may not establish an official or civic religion as a means of 
avoiding the establishment of a religion with more specific creeds...The 
State's role did not end with the decision to include a prayer and with the 
choice of clergyman. Principal Lee provided Rabbi Gutterman with a copy of the 
"Guidelines for Civic Occasions" and advised him that his prayers should be 
nonsectarian. Through these means, the principal directed and controlled the 
content of the prayers. Even if the only sanction for
  ignoring the instructions were that the rabbi would not be invited back, we 
think no religious representative who valued his or her continued reputation 
and effectiveness in the community would incur the State's displeasure in this 
regard. It is a cornerstone principle of our Establishment Clause jurisprudence 
that it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers 
for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program 
carried on by government, Engel v. Vitale, (1962), and that is what the school 
officials attempted to do."
   
   
  Susan, Paul, do you disagree with the statute, or with the Supreme Court's 
interpretation?
   
  Incidentally, somebody asked if I'm still a chaplain, and the answer is yes, 
because my church ordained me for the ministry of chaplaincyalthough I'm no 
longer a lieutenant and no longer an officerhaving been honorably 
discharged after 15.5 years.
   
  I pray in Jesus name,
  Chaplain Klingenschmitt


Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
   
  Clearly he neither sees a violationa, nor believes that there should be a 
separation.

Paul Finkelman

  --
  >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/07 4:10 AM >>>

  Surely you should be allowed to say any prayer you want, in private. To 
give a Christian prayer in church is no problem for me, and if you pray 
to Jesus in a military service for Christians, fine.

To pray to Jesus in a general military service is improper, and I see 
problems with any law which expressly allows you to do that.

I respect your feeling deeply about what you see as an important issue. 
Allow me to feel equally deeply about your imposing a Christian prayer 
on non-Christians. You don't see a violation of the separation of church 
and state here?

Susan

Gordon James Klingenschmitt wrote:

  > Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics
> Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely 
> views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback, 
> Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus name."
> Jesus for President?
> http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725
> Enjoy!
> Chaplain Klingenschmitt
> 
> WND Exclusive Commentary
> 
> Jesus for president?
> 
> Posted: May 17, 2007
> 1:00 a.m. Eastern
>
> By Gordon James Klingenschmitt
> OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He 
> promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but 
> meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a 
> military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus' name"?
> I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
> When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the 
> chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal 
> whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did 
> she protect her evangelical chaplain? No.
> I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone 
> calls for weeks,

Re: Jesus for President?

[jlof]

Jesus for President? Why would He allow Himself to be demoted? He's already 
King of kings, Lord of lords and has ALL power in Heaven and on earth. John 
Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com; Recovering Republican...
 
 
 
 
"Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are 
those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." 
-- John Calvin.
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Fri, 18 May 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Jesus for President?


Clearly he neither sees a violationa, nor believes that there should be a 
separation.

Paul Finkelman
President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law
 and Public Policy
Albany Law School
80 New Scotland Avenue
Albany, New York   12208-3494

518-445-3386 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/07 4:10 AM >>>
Surely you should be allowed to say any prayer you want, in private. To 
give a Christian prayer in church is no problem for me, and if you pray 
to Jesus in a military service for Christians, fine.

To pray to Jesus in a general military service is improper, and I see 
problems with any law which expressly allows you to do that.

I respect your feeling deeply about what you see as an important issue. 
Allow me to feel equally deeply about your imposing a Christian prayer 
on non-Christians. You don't see a violation of the separation of church 
and state here?

Susan

Gordon James Klingenschmitt wrote:
> Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics
> Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely 
> views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback, 
> Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus name."
> Jesus for President?
> http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725
> Enjoy!
> Chaplain Klingenschmitt
> 
> WND Exclusive Commentary
> 
> Jesus for president?
> 
> Posted: May 17, 2007
> 1:00 a.m. Eastern
>
> By Gordon James Klingenschmitt
> OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He 
> promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but 
> meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a 
> military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus' name"?
> I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
> When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the 
> chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal 
> whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did 
> she protect her evangelical chaplain? No.
> I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone 
> calls for weeks, until finally, I voice-mailed her press secretary 
> about my interview with "Jewish Week" newspaper 
> <http://www.persuade.tv/againstgoliath/JewishWeekStewartAin3Jun05.pdf>, 
> telling how I was punished for requesting Kosher meals for my Jewish 
> sailor. "Shall I tell them Senator Clinton doesn't care about Jewish 
> service members?" I asked. Fearing bad press, Clinton signed a "letter 
> of inquiry" to the Navy 
> <http://www.persuade.tv/againstgoliath/Senators.pdf> for me that same 
> day.
> But later, after Navy officials justified to her how I was also 
> "properly punished" for praying "in Jesus' name" and how chaplains 
> really should pray "non-sectarian" prayers in public, my sources 
> witnessed Sen. Clinton taking bold action /against me/. Opposing a 
> House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith 
> <http://www.persuade.tv/Frenzy6/WarnerSpeech2.pdf>, Clinton personally 
> attended meetings to block our legislation, preferring to let the 
> Pentagon censor our prayers.
> Sen. Barrack Hussein Obama wasn't any better.
> While campaigning in Iowa last month, Obama was asked his opinion 
> about Judge Roy Moore, who couldn't display the Ten Commandments in 
> the courthouse, and about me, a chaplain who was discharged for 
> praying in uniform.
> First, Sen. Obama falsely claimed he wasn't aware of "the chaplain 
> situation," when I'd personally faxed my whistleblower complaints to 
> his office <http://www.persuade.tv/frenzy10/ChapsToObama.pdf>, and his 
> staff acknowledged placing them on his desk.
> Even worse, Obama disrespected the Ten Commandments, claiming, "If you 
> are not a believer, 

Re: Jesus for President?

[Paul Finkelman]

Clearly he neither sees a violationa, nor believes that there should be a 
separation.

Paul Finkelman
President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law
 and Public Policy
Albany Law School
80 New Scotland Avenue
Albany, New York   12208-3494

518-445-3386 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/07 4:10 AM >>>
Surely you should be allowed to say any prayer you want, in private. To 
give a Christian prayer in church is no problem for me, and if you pray 
to Jesus in a military service for Christians, fine.

To pray to Jesus in a general military service is improper, and I see 
problems with any law which expressly allows you to do that.

I respect your feeling deeply about what you see as an important issue. 
Allow me to feel equally deeply about your imposing a Christian prayer 
on non-Christians. You don't see a violation of the separation of church 
and state here?

Susan

Gordon James Klingenschmitt wrote:
> Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics
> Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely 
> views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback, 
> Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus name."
> Jesus for President?
> http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725
> Enjoy!
> Chaplain Klingenschmitt
> 
> WND Exclusive Commentary
> 
> Jesus for president?
> 
> Posted: May 17, 2007
> 1:00 a.m. Eastern
>
> By Gordon James Klingenschmitt
> OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He 
> promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but 
> meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a 
> military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus' name"?
> I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
> When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the 
> chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal 
> whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did 
> she protect her evangelical chaplain? No.
> I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone 
> calls for weeks, until finally, I voice-mailed her press secretary 
> about my interview with "Jewish Week" newspaper 
> , 
> telling how I was punished for requesting Kosher meals for my Jewish 
> sailor. "Shall I tell them Senator Clinton doesn't care about Jewish 
> service members?" I asked. Fearing bad press, Clinton signed a "letter 
> of inquiry" to the Navy 
>  for me that same 
> day.
> But later, after Navy officials justified to her how I was also 
> "properly punished" for praying "in Jesus' name" and how chaplains 
> really should pray "non-sectarian" prayers in public, my sources 
> witnessed Sen. Clinton taking bold action /against me/. Opposing a 
> House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith 
> , Clinton personally 
> attended meetings to block our legislation, preferring to let the 
> Pentagon censor our prayers.
> Sen. Barrack Hussein Obama wasn't any better.
> While campaigning in Iowa last month, Obama was asked his opinion 
> about Judge Roy Moore, who couldn't display the Ten Commandments in 
> the courthouse, and about me, a chaplain who was discharged for 
> praying in uniform.
> First, Sen. Obama falsely claimed he wasn't aware of "the chaplain 
> situation," when I'd personally faxed my whistleblower complaints to 
> his office , and his 
> staff acknowledged placing them on his desk.
> Even worse, Obama disrespected the Ten Commandments, claiming, "If you 
> are not a believer, there would be a feeling that you wouldn't be 
> treated as fairly as a Christian. We want everybody to feel they are 
> treated equally." 
> 
> Apparently, Obama believes God's Ten Commandments are unfair since 
> they might hurt people's "feelings" (as if his pro-abortion laws don't 
> hurt the "feelings" of the unborn).
> Would President Obama appoint judges who oppose Roy Moore and would 
> jackhammer the 44 displays of the Ten Commandments from our U.S. 
> Supreme Court? He still won't debate Judge Moore on the subject 
> , 
> yet Barrack Hussein Obama campaigns like a good Christian, 
> soft-pedaling his Muslim upbringing.
> Conversely, Sen. Sam Brownback votes like he says he believes.
> When I first came to Washington, D.C., Sen. Brownback welcomed me to 
> speak at his weekly Values Action Team meeting, where I enli

Re: Jesus for President?

[Susan Freiman]

Surely you should be allowed to say any prayer you want, in private. To 
give a Christian prayer in church is no problem for me, and if you pray 
to Jesus in a military service for Christians, fine.


To pray to Jesus in a general military service is improper, and I see 
problems with any law which expressly allows you to do that.


I respect your feeling deeply about what you see as an important issue. 
Allow me to feel equally deeply about your imposing a Christian prayer 
on non-Christians. You don't see a violation of the separation of church 
and state here?


Susan

Gordon James Klingenschmitt wrote:

Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics
Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely 
views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback, 
Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus name."

Jesus for President?
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725
Enjoy!
Chaplain Klingenschmitt

WND Exclusive Commentary

Jesus for president?

Posted: May 17, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Gordon James Klingenschmitt
OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He 
promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but 
meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a 
military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus' name"?

I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the 
chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal 
whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did 
she protect her evangelical chaplain? No.
I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone 
calls for weeks, until finally, I voice-mailed her press secretary 
about my interview with "Jewish Week" newspaper 
, 
telling how I was punished for requesting Kosher meals for my Jewish 
sailor. "Shall I tell them Senator Clinton doesn't care about Jewish 
service members?" I asked. Fearing bad press, Clinton signed a "letter 
of inquiry" to the Navy 
 for me that same 
day.
But later, after Navy officials justified to her how I was also 
"properly punished" for praying "in Jesus' name" and how chaplains 
really should pray "non-sectarian" prayers in public, my sources 
witnessed Sen. Clinton taking bold action /against me/. Opposing a 
House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith 
, Clinton personally 
attended meetings to block our legislation, preferring to let the 
Pentagon censor our prayers.

Sen. Barrack Hussein Obama wasn't any better.
While campaigning in Iowa last month, Obama was asked his opinion 
about Judge Roy Moore, who couldn't display the Ten Commandments in 
the courthouse, and about me, a chaplain who was discharged for 
praying in uniform.
First, Sen. Obama falsely claimed he wasn't aware of "the chaplain 
situation," when I'd personally faxed my whistleblower complaints to 
his office , and his 
staff acknowledged placing them on his desk.
Even worse, Obama disrespected the Ten Commandments, claiming, "If you 
are not a believer, there would be a feeling that you wouldn't be 
treated as fairly as a Christian. We want everybody to feel they are 
treated equally." 

Apparently, Obama believes God's Ten Commandments are unfair since 
they might hurt people's "feelings" (as if his pro-abortion laws don't 
hurt the "feelings" of the unborn).
Would President Obama appoint judges who oppose Roy Moore and would 
jackhammer the 44 displays of the Ten Commandments from our U.S. 
Supreme Court? He still won't debate Judge Moore on the subject 
, 
yet Barrack Hussein Obama campaigns like a good Christian, 
soft-pedaling his Muslim upbringing.

Conversely, Sen. Sam Brownback votes like he says he believes.
When I first came to Washington, D.C., Sen. Brownback welcomed me to 
speak at his weekly Values Action Team meeting, where I enlisted 
dozens of pro-family groups and senators to vote for allowing prayers 
in Jesus' name.
Brownback personally wrote President Bush to help chaplains, and when 
our legislation came to the Senate, Sam Brownback again reminded 
Values Action Team members to stand up for religious liberty. (But 
he'd never brag about this; he's too humble.) If elected, I've no 
doubt President Brownback would immediately sign an executive order 
protecting all chaplains' ri