[Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor Rptr Exciter Audio Inject Point
I would start by removing the Mic DC from the exciter. I inject the audio to pin 22 on the top row of pins on the backplane that goes to the exciter interconnect board. I also cut the trace on the backplane board that goes to pin 22, so that the only source of audio reaching the exciter comes from the controller. Assuming that you are using the factory PL decoder and encoder, I have found a decoder now and then that either has a bad coil or capacitor and is not filtering all of the PL out of the receive signal. These modules are getting on towards 30 years old and you can find a bad part every now and then. Look at the output of pin 17 of the squelch gate module with a scope and make sure the PL filters on the PL decoder are doing their job. You should not see any PL on the audio at this point. This is where I also pick up receive audio to feed into the controller. I will use a series capacitor or a series/parallel resistor capacitor combination in the receive audio lead at times to get the proper audio response curve to the controller input. Joe - WA7JAW --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, n6nr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am having a problem with the audio coming from my remote base receiver. I am using a LINKR2A controller. I originally used the de- emphasis jumper setting, but it sounded too treble, so went back to the broader spectrum setting. The problem is that I have to take the audio directly off of the remote receiver's discriminator, rather than using filtered audio. I currently inject audio from the ICS controller to the exciter on pin 11 of the Squelch Gate card, which is a filtered input. However, when RX audio from remote receiver has PL superimposed on it, it still interferes with the repeater's talkback PL. It looks like I may have to build an RC filter of my own to clip off the PL before it gets to the controller. Does anyone have a suggestion as to a better place to inject the audio?
[Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers
The phone number you gace is for ICM, International Crystal Manufaturing in Tulsa Oklahoma, NOT ICS Controllers. I doubt Sara Gore works for Brian at ICS. Call the number, and ICM will answer, not ICS. Shorty, K6JSI --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Randy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- She works for the company that makes the ICS controllers. . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k6jsi k6jsi@ wrote: What does Sara Gore at ICM have to do with ICS Controllers? Shorty, K6JSI --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Randy kb9zes@ wrote: ---If your having a problem, maybe you might want to call them. Sara Gore...800-725-1426 xt 237 . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, kb5vjy jholland@ wrote: Is anyone else having a problem getting to ICS's Website? I needed to download the basic manual. 73 de Joe KB5VJY
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay
At 06:29 PM 10/15/08, you wrote: Looking for the UHF msr 2000 manual here---anyone please/ tnx Jerry VE3 EXT Fifteen seconds typing the string msr2000 manual uhf less the quotes resulted in this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Motorola-Manual-MSR-2000-UHF-BASE-68P81061E55-O_W0QQitemZ200263429845QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200263429845_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A3%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 Current price is US$15 There is also a VHF manual at http://cgi.ebay.com/Motorola-Manual-MSR-2000-VHF-BASE-68P81061E50-A_W0QQitemZ390001502686QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item390001502686_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A3%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Rptr Exciter Audio Inject Point
n6nr wrote: I am having a problem with the audio coming from my remote base receiver. I am using a LINKR2A controller. I originally used the de- emphasis jumper setting, but it sounded too treble, so went back to the broader spectrum setting. SNIP It looks like I may have to build an RC filter of my own to clip off the PL before it gets to the controller. Here are several: http://www.repeater-builder.com/pl-filter/ Does anyone have a suggestion as to a better place to inject the audio? Yes, If you have a Micor Unified Station, Read this: http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/stationmod.html Standard Mobile conversion? Read this: http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/micorvhfmobile.html Railroad Mobile? http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/railroad.html Kevin Custer
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Z-match help?
Despite GE's LBIs on adjusting these networks, I adjust them for maximum amplifier efficiency, not following the LBI instructions. Makes a big difference in amplifier current draw if done carefully. Laryn K8TVZ I strongly second the motion. The procedure in the LBI is having you tune for least reflected power as monitored at the directional coupler. That's not necessarily the most efficient operating point (load Z) for the devices. Monitor DC current draw and tune for max efficiency at the desired power output. --- Jeff WN3A
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay
Aggghhh! I just paid $40 for the C revision (at least I talked the guy down from $59...) George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413 - Original Message From: skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:21:25 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay OK you MSR-2000 guys... there's a Manual available on Ebay... it's the Station Control Manual, which is the Service Manual for the Modules (Cards) in the back plane (chassis) but you should have this book along with the matching RF Manual for your repeater service needs. The smart way to go would be to have the other two RF Manuals, one for VHF and the other for the UHF Package as I believe only the VHF RF Manual has the Power Supply information unless you have a special version of the book. Motorola Manual MSR 2000 BASE REPEATER #68P81061E40- B Ebay Item number: 390001501899 cheers, s.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay
Don't sweat it George... you now have the manual and you paid much less than the got to have it now price, which seems to now be about $100 per book (as seen in/on some of the Ebay Stores). Avoid loaning the book out off premise and you'll be just fine. cheers, s. Re: Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay Aggghhh! I just paid $40 for the C revision (at least I talked the guy down from $59...) George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413
[Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers
There must be a dwindling number of people who can recognize the ICM number on sight. It's no surprise to me that Shorty would be one of them; I have reason to know how long he's been dealing with them. Hi Shorty! Jeff W6JK (ex WA6BIL) --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k6jsi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The phone number you gace is for ICM, International Crystal Manufaturing in Tulsa Oklahoma, NOT ICS Controllers. I doubt Sara Gore works for Brian at ICS. Call the number, and ICM will answer, not ICS. Shorty, K6JSI --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Randy kb9zes@ wrote: --- She works for the company that makes the ICS controllers. . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k6jsi k6jsi@ wrote: What does Sara Gore at ICM have to do with ICS Controllers? Shorty, K6JSI --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Randy kb9zes@ wrote: ---If your having a problem, maybe you might want to call them. Sara Gore...800-725-1426 xt 237 . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, kb5vjy jholland@ wrote: Is anyone else having a problem getting to ICS's Website? I needed to download the basic manual. 73 de Joe KB5VJY
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers
BZZT !Wrong answer. Thank you for playing. If you google 800-725-1426 you find 152 pointers, all pointing to International Crystal. At 06:51 PM 10/15/08, you wrote: --- She works for the company that makes the ICS controllers. . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k6jsi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does Sara Gore at ICM have to do with ICS Controllers? Shorty, K6JSI --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Randy kb9zes@ wrote: ---If your having a problem, maybe you might want to call them. Sara Gore...800-725-1426 xt 237 . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, kb5vjy jholland@ wrote: Is anyone else having a problem getting to ICS's Website? I needed to download the basic manual. 73 de Joe KB5VJY Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers
ICS...Integrated Circuit Systems... ICM...Integrated Circuit Manufactor... Manufactors make them...Systems use sell them. Sorry I'm wrong for trying to help. . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k6jsi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The phone number you gace is for ICM, International Crystal Manufaturing in Tulsa Oklahoma, NOT ICS Controllers. I doubt Sara Gore works for Brian at ICS. Call the number, and ICM will answer, not ICS. Shorty, K6JSI --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Randy kb9zes@ wrote: --- She works for the company that makes the ICS controllers. . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k6jsi k6jsi@ wrote: What does Sara Gore at ICM have to do with ICS Controllers? Shorty, K6JSI --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Randy kb9zes@ wrote: ---If your having a problem, maybe you might want to call them. Sara Gore...800-725-1426 xt 237 . In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, kb5vjy jholland@ wrote: Is anyone else having a problem getting to ICS's Website? I needed to download the basic manual. 73 de Joe KB5VJY
[Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
Folks, My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8 heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8 Andrew heliax. So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90 degrees rotated. The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway) with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a straight shot connecting them. The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all directions. Wattmeter (yes, it is a real one -- Telewave 44) says that things look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down- tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not real appreciable difference. For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all) wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away. In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and yes, we are planning to check the coax for loss at the earliest convenience. I would like to take advantage of the top slot on the tower for improved performance rather than stay on the lower spot, and will try another antenna if necessary. I'm just having a hard time imagining that the F10 has appreciably narrower vertical beam as a 9.something dBd antenna than the F10 as a 10dBd antenna, etc. etc. And it also seems counter intuitive that a taller vertical beamwidth and less gain on the horizon in this application would be better. I trust the experience and knowledge of Telewave, but I also trust the wisdom from this list, which has saved me many times. Your thoughts gentlemen? -- Cort Buffington H: +1-785-838-3034 M: +1-785-865-7206
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers
Randy wrote: ICS...Integrated Circuit Systems... ICM...Integrated Circuit Manufactor... Manufactors make them...Systems use sell them. Sorry I'm wrong for trying to help. Look Randy, You obviously don't know anything about ICS Controllers located at: http://www.ics-ctrl.com/ OR International Crystal located at: http://www.icmfg.com/ You are on a Repeater Builder list. ICM to the folks here means International Crystal Manufacturing, not Integrated Circuit Manufacturer. ICS here relates to Integrated Control Systems, not Integrated Circuit Systems. You aren't helping anyone by giving incorrect information. Please do a little homework before putting your foot in your mouth. Kevin Custer List Owner
RE: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
Cort, Do you really have 5/8 ? Here are the part numbers for the coax LDF4-50A 1/2 50 ohms - loss at 450MHz ~1.447 LDF5-50A 7/8 50 ohms - loss at 450MHz ~ .808 LDF6-50A 1 1/4 50 ohms LDF7-50A 1 5/8 50 ohms So if you have the real deal feed line loss doesn't look like your problem If you have something else all bets are off send me what number is on the cable. The Telewave antenna (actuality ANY Telewave antenna) is problematic. We tried using several in the paging business most likely for the same reason you did they are cheap. They never performed as well as advertised. If you want a cheap antenna the best for the money is and ASP705K by Decibel Products (or whatever they are this week) They work well have a nice round pattern. And will generally out perform a DB-420 because of less pattern distortion. The statement The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower concerns me as there is no correct way to side mount an antenna. You must take in to account the desired v. undesired coverage areas and optimize the mount and elements to achieve the desired coverage. On that antenna with an 18 face tower mounted 16 off the point of the tower set in an omni configuration You will see peaks of around 10.5dBd and nulls of around 5dBd. I see nothing here that would indicate that the Telewave system is performing correctly. Remember to take into the feed line loss when calculating SWR. That is if you are putting a 100 watts into the feed line and get 50 watts back That indicates a fault at the top as you have 100 watts and 2.894dB loss (1.447*2 up and down) that would be half power of 50 watts. Do some more looking before you call the antenna bad. Robert / KD4PBC -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cort Buffington Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:17 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Folks, My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8 heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8 Andrew heliax. So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90 degrees rotated. The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway) with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a straight shot connecting them. The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all directions. Wattmeter (yes, it is a real one -- Telewave 44) says that things look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down- tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not real appreciable difference. For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all) wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away. In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and yes, we are planning to check the coax for loss at the earliest convenience. I would like to take advantage of the top slot on the tower for improved performance rather than stay on the lower spot, and will try another antenna if necessary. I'm just having a hard time imagining that the F10 has appreciably narrower vertical beam as a 9.something dBd antenna than the F10 as a 10dBd antenna, etc. etc. And it also seems
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
Cort, I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your post. One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two feedlines which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire? Only one feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One hardline / antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave ANT450F10) works bad? The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold of a Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest thing to do. If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the Telewave system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule out either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a time. Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base or duplexer termination. How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy rain in the area that water could have been introduced into the connector / hardline if they weren't properly water-proofed? Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing that the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading your post over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment and then implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to cause the hardline / antenna system to react that way. Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Cort Buffington [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Folks, My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8 heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8 Andrew heliax. So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90 degrees rotated. The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway) with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a straight shot connecting them. The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all directions. Wattmeter (yes, it is a real one -- Telewave 44) says that things look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down- tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not real appreciable difference. For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all) wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away. In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and yes, we are planning to check the coax for loss at the earliest convenience. I would like to take advantage of the top slot on the tower for improved performance rather than stay on the lower spot, and will try another antenna if necessary. I'm just having a hard time imagining that the F10 has appreciably narrower vertical beam as a 9.something dBd antenna than the F10 as a 10dBd antenna, etc. etc. And it also seems counter intuitive that a taller vertical beamwidth and less gain on the horizon in this application would be better. I trust the experience and knowledge of Telewave, but I also trust the wisdom from this list, which has saved me many times. Your thoughts gentlemen? -- Cort Buffington
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
LDF4.5-50A http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=466137eventGroup=4eventPage=1 1.05dB loss at 450MHz @ 100' DB420 spacing -- spacing and mounting per DB Products/Andrew/ComScope, etc. :) instructions, I agree, it's never perfect, just wanted to be clear that it is all by the book. Will keep looking -- measuring power at the feedline-antenna connection is my next step. Thanks for the input Robert -- this helps! On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:18 PM, KD4PBC wrote: Cort, Do you really have 5/8 ? Here are the part numbers for the coax LDF4-50A 1/2 50 ohms - loss at 450MHz ~1.447 LDF5-50A 7/8 50 ohms - loss at 450MHz ~ .808 LDF6-50A 1 1/4 50 ohms LDF7-50A 1 5/8 50 ohms So if you have the real deal feed line loss doesn't look like your problem If you have something else all bets are off send me what number is on the cable. The Telewave antenna (actuality ANY Telewave antenna) is problematic. We tried using several in the paging business most likely for the same reason you did they are cheap. They never performed as well as advertised. If you want a cheap antenna the best for the money is and ASP705K by Decibel Products (or whatever they are this week) They work well have a nice round pattern. And will generally out perform a DB-420 because of less pattern distortion. The statement The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower concerns me as there is no correct way to side mount an antenna. You must take in to account the desired v. undesired coverage areas and optimize the mount and elements to achieve the desired coverage. On that antenna with an 18 face tower mounted 16 off the point of the tower set in an omni configuration You will see peaks of around 10.5dBd and nulls of around 5dBd. I see nothing here that would indicate that the Telewave system is performing correctly. Remember to take into the feed line loss when calculating SWR. That is if you are putting a 100 watts into the feed line and get 50 watts back That indicates a fault at the top as you have 100 watts and 2.894dB loss (1.447*2 up and down) that would be half power of 50 watts. Do some more looking before you call the antenna bad. Robert / KD4PBC -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cort Buffington Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:17 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Folks, My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8 heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8 Andrew heliax. So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90 degrees rotated. The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway) with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a straight shot connecting them. The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all directions. Wattmeter (yes, it is a real one -- Telewave 44) says that things look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down- tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not real appreciable difference. For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all) wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away. In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
Don, two completely different antenna and feedline systems. I swap them where each separate antenna/feedline system connects to the duplexer. The Telewave meter is new because I didn't trust my ham-type meters... (I've needed a real meter for years anyway) The Telewave shows a little less forward power and a little lower VSWR than the cheap comets. I did a quick check of the telewave by transmitting various signal levels into my IFR 1200S (currently in calibration from Aeroflex) I then transmitted the same signals into the telewave with a nice big DB load I've trusted for years on it. The Telewave was within a few % of the IFR. I know that's not a perfect method, but new meter, agrees with IFR in my limited testing format. I'm probably pretty confident of it. Problems before and after vertical alignment. If the feedline/ connector is damaged it was damaged when we put this system up -- from tower on the ground. I mean, we did it ALL three weeks ago. Saturday morning there was a pile of parts, by sundown it was all assembled and installed. No rain at all between erection and the first round of testing. After significant rains, no change. Thanks Don! Cort On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: Cort, I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your post. One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two feedlines which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire? Only one feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One hardline / antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave ANT450F10) works bad? The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold of a Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest thing to do. If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the Telewave system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule out either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a time. Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base or duplexer termination. How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy rain in the area that water could have been introduced into the connector / hardline if they weren't properly water-proofed? Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing that the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading your post over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment and then implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to cause the hardline / antenna system to react that way. Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Cort Buffington [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Folks, My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8 heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8 Andrew heliax. So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90 degrees rotated. The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway) with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a straight shot connecting them. The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all directions. Wattmeter (yes, it is a real one -- Telewave 44) says that things look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down- tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not real appreciable difference. For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave also HIGHLY recommended
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
Could be a bad-out-of-the-box antenna. I've heard of this happening with fiberglass antennas. It could be broken near the bottom and still show good VSWR but give you no gain. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Cort Buffington [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:16 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Folks, My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8 heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8 Andrew heliax. So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90 degrees rotated. The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway) with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a straight shot connecting them. The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all directions. Wattmeter (yes, it is a real one -- Telewave 44) says that things look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down- tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not real appreciable difference. For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all) wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away. In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and yes, we are planning to check the coax for loss at the earliest convenience. I would like to take advantage of the top slot on the tower for improved performance rather than stay on the lower spot, and will try another antenna if necessary. I'm just having a hard time imagining that the F10 has appreciably narrower vertical beam as a 9.something dBd antenna than the F10 as a 10dBd antenna, etc. etc. And it also seems counter intuitive that a taller vertical beamwidth and less gain on the horizon in this application would be better. I trust the experience and knowledge of Telewave, but I also trust the wisdom from this list, which has saved me many times. Your thoughts gentlemen? -- Cort Buffington H: +1-785-838-3034 M: +1-785-865-7206
RE: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
Cort, One problem that I don't think has been mentioned, is the possibility that the center conductor of the feedline to the top antenna has somehow disconnected from the center pin at the top end. This doesn't happen very often with foam dielectric Heliax, but it does happen often with air dielectric feedline. When the sun beats on the black exterior of the feedline, it expands longitudinally, but more on the outside than on the inside. After many cycles, the center conductor pulls out of the back of the center pin. On captive-pin Heliax connectors, it looks like the center pin is fine when viewed from the top, but there may be no connection to the cable's center conductor. One quick way to check this is to measure the DC resistance between the center conductor and shield at the bottom end of the feedline, where it connects to the duplexer. When a DC-grounded is properly connected at the top, you should measure close to zero ohms plus the loop resistance of the feedline. Incidentally, this quick and simple measurement is a good one to make on any new installation, right after it is certain that everything is working properly. The measured resistance value should be posted somewhere in the shack so that it can be verified from time to time, or when there is a suspected problem with the antenna or feedline. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cort Buffington Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Don, two completely different antenna and feedline systems. I swap them where each separate antenna/feedline system connects to the duplexer. The Telewave meter is new because I didn't trust my ham-type meters... (I've needed a real meter for years anyway) The Telewave shows a little less forward power and a little lower VSWR than the cheap comets. I did a quick check of the telewave by transmitting various signal levels into my IFR 1200S (currently in calibration from Aeroflex) I then transmitted the same signals into the telewave with a nice big DB load I've trusted for years on it. The Telewave was within a few % of the IFR. I know that's not a perfect method, but new meter, agrees with IFR in my limited testing format. I'm probably pretty confident of it. Problems before and after vertical alignment. If the feedline/connector is damaged it was damaged when we put this system up -- from tower on the ground. I mean, we did it ALL three weeks ago. Saturday morning there was a pile of parts, by sundown it was all assembled and installed. No rain at all between erection and the first round of testing. After significant rains, no change. Thanks Don! Cort On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: Cort, I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your post. One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two feedlines which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire? Only one feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One hardline / antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave ANT450F10) works bad? The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold of a Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest thing to do. If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the Telewave system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule out either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a time. Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base or duplexer termination. How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy rain in the area that water could have been introduced into the connector / hardline if they weren't properly water-proofed? Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing that the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading your post over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment and then implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to cause the hardline / antenna system to react that way. Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Cort Buffington [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:cort%40lawrence-ks.org To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Folks, My
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
Eric! That's a really, really fantastic idea. That's TOP on the list. On Oct 16, 2008, at 10:16 PM, Eric Lemmon wrote: Cort, One problem that I don't think has been mentioned, is the possibility that the center conductor of the feedline to the top antenna has somehow disconnected from the center pin at the top end. This doesn't happen very often with foam dielectric Heliax, but it does happen often with air dielectric feedline. When the sun beats on the black exterior of the feedline, it expands longitudinally, but more on the outside than on the inside. After many cycles, the center conductor pulls out of the back of the center pin. On captive-pin Heliax connectors, it looks like the center pin is fine when viewed from the top, but there may be no connection to the cable's center conductor. One quick way to check this is to measure the DC resistance between the center conductor and shield at the bottom end of the feedline, where it connects to the duplexer. When a DC-grounded is properly connected at the top, you should measure close to zero ohms plus the loop resistance of the feedline. Incidentally, this quick and simple measurement is a good one to make on any new installation, right after it is certain that everything is working properly. The measured resistance value should be posted somewhere in the shack so that it can be verified from time to time, or when there is a suspected problem with the antenna or feedline. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cort Buffington Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Don, two completely different antenna and feedline systems. I swap them where each separate antenna/feedline system connects to the duplexer. The Telewave meter is new because I didn't trust my ham-type meters... (I've needed a real meter for years anyway) The Telewave shows a little less forward power and a little lower VSWR than the cheap comets. I did a quick check of the telewave by transmitting various signal levels into my IFR 1200S (currently in calibration from Aeroflex) I then transmitted the same signals into the telewave with a nice big DB load I've trusted for years on it. The Telewave was within a few % of the IFR. I know that's not a perfect method, but new meter, agrees with IFR in my limited testing format. I'm probably pretty confident of it. Problems before and after vertical alignment. If the feedline/ connector is damaged it was damaged when we put this system up -- from tower on the ground. I mean, we did it ALL three weeks ago. Saturday morning there was a pile of parts, by sundown it was all assembled and installed. No rain at all between erection and the first round of testing. After significant rains, no change. Thanks Don! Cort On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: Cort, I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your post. One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two feedlines which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire? Only one feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One hardline / antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave ANT450F10) works bad? The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold of a Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest thing to do. If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the Telewave system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule out either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a time. Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base or duplexer termination. How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy rain in the area that water could have been introduced into the connector / hardline if they weren't properly water-proofed? Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing that the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading your post over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment and then implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to cause the hardline / antenna system to react that way. Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Cort Buffington [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:cort%40lawrence-ks.org To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion Folks, My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew
[Repeater-Builder] Need Info on Wilson radio
I just bought a Wilson WS201 Mobile transceiver in the hopes of using the receiver for a repeater receiver. This is a crystal controlled radio. I cannot locate any information on this radio. The FCC ID even comes back as a no find. The FCC ID is ATE9PLWS201. ATE comes back as a Regency type acceptance number. Does anyone have a manual or schematics for this radio? Any help appreciated. 73 Glenn WB4UIV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion
My 2 cents worth. Many years ago I had a 200' run of LDF5-50 installed by a professional on a 900'tower (rptr at 700' antenna at 900') about a week later we noticed that the TR performance dropped considerably. Personal inspection revealed that water or condensate (about a teaspoon full) had drained down the cable insde the hollow center conductor and had seeped around the inside of the bottom connector. The solution was to completely remove the connector and center pin, drain the cable and let it thoroughly dry then reinstall the connector. I never had another problem with it after that. I suggest you take a look at yours. Years later I ordered 2 runs of LDF4-50 w/ connectors installed from DB and after receiving them checked them for continuitybefore installation. One cable showed a direct short between center conductor and ground. I removed both connectors and found one connector had been improperly installed at DB. Apparently the portion that has the spring fingers on it had been allowed to turn in the tightening process and it had grabbed the copper shield, shredded it and bent it inward to where it made contact with the center conductor. Needless to say ,but I then removed all the other connectors to verify their condition and reinstalled all of them properly. A third case similar to the one above (shredded shield ) but no physical contact (no continuity) showed a 1:1 SWR on Xmit but caused the RF to desense the rcvr. to the point where the perfomance of the rptr. was drastically reduced from what it should have been. Similar to what you are describing. While you might not see a direct short or even an indication of high reflected power when you test the system, if you have any contamination, moisture, or metallic debris in side the connector it can cause you the grief you are describing. Hope this helps some. -- Doug N3DAB/WPRX486/WPJL709 Cort Buffington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: = Don, two completely different antenna and feedline systems. I swap them where each separate antenna/feedline system connects to the duplexer. The Telewave meter is new because I didn't trust my ham-type meters... (I've needed a real meter for years anyway) The Telewave shows a little less forward power and a little lower VSWR than the cheap comets. I did a quick check of the telewave by transmitting various signal levels into my IFR 1200S (currently in calibration from Aeroflex) I then transmitted the same signals into the telewave with a nice big DB load I've trusted for years on it. The Telewave was within a few % of the IFR. I know that's not a perfect method, but new meter, agrees with IFR in my limited testing format. I'm probably pretty confident of it. Problems before and after vertical alignment. If the feedline/ connector is damaged it was damaged when we put this system up -- from tower on the ground. I mean, we did it ALL three weeks ago. Saturday morning there was a pile of parts, by sundown it was all assembled and installed. No rain at all between erection and the first round of testing. After significant rains, no change. Thanks Don! Cort On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: Cort, I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your post. One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two feedlines which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire? Only one feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One hardline / antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave ANT450F10) works bad? The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold of a Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest thing to do. If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the Telewave system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule out either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a time. Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base or duplexer termination. How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy rain in the area that water could have been introduced into the connector / hardline if they weren't properly water-proofed? Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing that the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading your post over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment and then implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to cause the hardline / antenna system to react that way. Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Cort Buffington [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna
