Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Locally, even with $.045/ KWH electricity, electric heat still costs more than gas per Btu. Heat pump cost about one third of gas per Btu. Gerald Pelnar WDØFYF McPherson, Ks - Original Message - From: Chris Curtis demo...@rollanet.org To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 1:30 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor We are going to try a tankless water heater (electric, not gaseous). Heat pump was a big help this year. Washer and dryer are pretty good but with 4 kids, they get used quite a bit. Chris Kb0wlf Replacing all sorts of old appliances helps in this category... --SNIP-- Oh, the clothes are cleaner too. A lot cleaner. She was right, like she usually is. :-) Nate WY0X Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
We are going to try a tankless water heater (electric, not gaseous). Heat pump was a big help this year. Washer and dryer are pretty good but with 4 kids, they get used quite a bit. Chris Kb0wlf Replacing all sorts of old appliances helps in this category... --SNIP-- Oh, the clothes are cleaner too. A lot cleaner. She was right, like she usually is. :-) Nate WY0X
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Replacing all sorts of old appliances helps in this category... My wife finally twisted my arm into replacing her old washing machine and dryer as her Christmas present, and of course -- the first thing I'm down there doing is measuring their electrical load properties (just used a Kill-A-Watt... yeah, they're not 100% accurate, but for comparison purposes, it's fine). The difference between the old ones and the new was impressive. What made me go measure it was the Energy Star label that said the washer would only take an average of $13/year to operate, not including energy to heat the water, of course. Now we'll see if they last as long as the old ones... (probably not... sigh... but we'll see.) Oh, the clothes are cleaner too. A lot cleaner. She was right, like she usually is. :-) Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:53 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor I will now reveal to the Repeater-Builder list members the sure-fire way to reduce electric bills: Get rid of that clunker refrigerator or freezer in the garage! Case in point: A co-worker remarked that his electric bill was about $120 per month, while mine was about $55. When I learned that he had an old (1955 vintage) Norge freezer in his garage, I lent him a portable kWh meter for a couple of weeks, to measure that freezer's power consumption. It turned out that the one Norge freezer was responsible for just over 1/3 of his power bill! On my urging, he turned it in to PGE for a rebate and bought a new Energy Star freezer. In less than four months, he saved enough on his electric bill to pay for the appliance. A word to the wise... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
This is funny. All they appear to be doing is placing a capacitor across the line at the service panel which gives some power factor correction to motor or other inductive loads. But that correction is AT THE POWER PANEL which is only inches or a few feet at the most away from the meter. If you are not being billed for reactive power but only for real power consumed, as you are in a typical home, then it does absolutely nothing for you. It does not lower the current in your motor and does not help prolong its life. It only lowers the current going thru the meter. And since that extra current is reactive it cost you no more or no less whether it is there or not. The other thing is, if you have no motors in inductive appliances running that capacitor is still across the line drawing CAPACTIVE reactance current. Just the opposite of when the inductive load is on by itself. You would need a capacitor reactance value to match the inductive reactance value to fully cancel any reactive current. Not that this hurts anything on you electric bill as you still get billed only for real power used and not reactive power. You have just given away $299.95. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Reed Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:42 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor The device works by changing the voltage waveform to get the most work for the least energy. NASA came up with idea many years ago, and it does work well. I think this was designed more for household appliances and such, not repeater systems, unless you are counting the cooler that holds the 807's... 73 Mike - N7ZEF - Original Message - From: Don Kupferschmidt d...@httpd.org To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Hello group, I need to chime in here and ask about a device that being sold as an enhancement for saving electrical energy in a residence. The device is called Power-Save 1200 and you can see it at www.power-save.com. From what I can glean from the web site it's a power factor correction device that attaches to the load center wiring panel.via 3 wires; 2 are attached to a dedicated 20 amp 2 pole 220 volt circuit breaker, the other remaining wire is attached to ground. The instructions go on to say that this device is designed to condition all power consumed by inductive loads (electric motors) in the home regardless of installation location. Their web site states: SAVE UP TO 25% ON YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILLS! (Direct quote). There is a video on the web site that shows a volt / amp meter reading before and after the device is activated. The unit sells for $299.95 + shipping handling. The dealer who told me about this device states that the unit will pay for itself over time. My brother in law is an electrician and we have gotten into a lively discussion about this device and the theory behind it. I say that while the device will probably work as advertised, it may not provide a complete savings to the owner as it is attached to the load center and not the individual motor. In essence, isn't the power company getting some benefit of this device since it's attached to the grid via the breakers which are being fed by the power company? TIA for your comments. Don Kupferschmidt, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon wb6...@verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Tom, Excellent questions! The first is easy: Residences and light commercial occupancies have meters that measure real (true) power only. That's because only real power does work, and that's what you are paying for. The classic kWh meter with the spinning aluminum disk was perfected by Ferraris and Shallenberger more than a century ago, and millions are in service today. The most recent improvement is a magnetically-levitated disk that nearly eliminates any errors due to bearing friction. A revenue-grade kWh meter is extremely accurate, and very seldom requires service. True power is consumed only when the applied voltage and the resulting current are in phase. In this specific case, volts times amps equals watts. When the current is not in phase with the applied voltage, we enter the mysterious world of apparent power, which is expressed as volt-amperes. Nearly all apparent power seems to be consumed by inductive apparatus such as motors and transformers, except that such currents are returned to the source as the magnetic field collapses. Suffice it to say that the current actually flows in the circuit, but it does no real work. When the power factor (PF) is poor, a lot
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Hi Gary, I was pretty suspicious of what the unit was claimed to do so I didn't give them any money. It's good that we have a reflector like this one with 3000 + members on the list that can give their $0.02 as well as their technical expertise / opinions. Thanks for replying to my original post. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer gascha...@comcast.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:43 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor This is funny. All they appear to be doing is placing a capacitor across the line at the service panel which gives some power factor correction to motor or other inductive loads. But that correction is AT THE POWER PANEL which is only inches or a few feet at the most away from the meter. If you are not being billed for reactive power but only for real power consumed, as you are in a typical home, then it does absolutely nothing for you. It does not lower the current in your motor and does not help prolong its life. It only lowers the current going thru the meter. And since that extra current is reactive it cost you no more or no less whether it is there or not. The other thing is, if you have no motors in inductive appliances running that capacitor is still across the line drawing CAPACTIVE reactance current. Just the opposite of when the inductive load is on by itself. You would need a capacitor reactance value to match the inductive reactance value to fully cancel any reactive current. Not that this hurts anything on you electric bill as you still get billed only for real power used and not reactive power. You have just given away $299.95. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Reed Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:42 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor The device works by changing the voltage waveform to get the most work for the least energy. NASA came up with idea many years ago, and it does work well. I think this was designed more for household appliances and such, not repeater systems, unless you are counting the cooler that holds the 807's... 73 Mike - N7ZEF - Original Message - From: Don Kupferschmidt d...@httpd.org To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Hello group, I need to chime in here and ask about a device that being sold as an enhancement for saving electrical energy in a residence. The device is called Power-Save 1200 and you can see it at www.power-save.com. From what I can glean from the web site it's a power factor correction device that attaches to the load center wiring panel.via 3 wires; 2 are attached to a dedicated 20 amp 2 pole 220 volt circuit breaker, the other remaining wire is attached to ground. The instructions go on to say that this device is designed to condition all power consumed by inductive loads (electric motors) in the home regardless of installation location. Their web site states: SAVE UP TO 25% ON YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILLS! (Direct quote). There is a video on the web site that shows a volt / amp meter reading before and after the device is activated. The unit sells for $299.95 + shipping handling. The dealer who told me about this device states that the unit will pay for itself over time. My brother in law is an electrician and we have gotten into a lively discussion about this device and the theory behind it. I say that while the device will probably work as advertised, it may not provide a complete savings to the owner as it is attached to the load center and not the individual motor. In essence, isn't the power company getting some benefit of this device since it's attached to the grid via the breakers which are being fed by the power company? TIA for your comments. Don Kupferschmidt, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon wb6...@verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Tom, Excellent questions! The first is easy: Residences and light commercial occupancies have meters that measure real (true) power only. That's because only real power does work, and that's what you are paying for. The classic kWh meter with the spinning aluminum disk was perfected by Ferraris and Shallenberger more than a century ago, and millions are in service today. The most recent improvement is a magnetically-levitated disk that nearly eliminates any errors due to bearing friction. A revenue-grade kWh meter is extremely accurate, and very seldom requires service. True power is consumed only when the applied voltage and the resulting current are in phase
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Don Kupferschmidt wrote: Hi Gary, I was pretty suspicious of what the unit was claimed to do so I didn't give them any money. It's good that we have a reflector like this one with 3000 + members on the list that can give their $0.02 as well as their technical expertise / opinions. When in doubt, Google is your friend... I Googled power-save 1200 scam It revealed exactly what Gary said: http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/power-save-1200-recapture-your-electricity-line-loss.html Kevin Custer List Owner
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
I took the time to view their short video. http://www.power-save.com/1200.html They show the Amperage to the load (a motor) is changed with and without the Power Saver. Notice I said Amperage not KiloWatt Hours. KWH's are not referenced in the video, and is what you actually pay for for most residences. I wasn't sure exactly what the meter they were using was reading, so I downloaded the manual and read through it to see what was being displayed: http://www.tequipment.net/pdf/LEM/2050_man.pdf Page 14 tells the story here... If you look closely, the hand-held meter is simultaneously reading kW (the upper most reading). In the first demonstration, the kWh reading does not change with the unit on or off. In the latter two demonstrations, the kW reading GOES UP. I'm uncertain why the kWh reading (the reading closest to the bottom) doesn't show the change, maybe the meter takes a while to recalculate Smoke - Mirrors... So, you pay $300 (plus installation) to benefit the power company; which you get nothing in return, other than it possibly costing YOU more money on your electric bill. Kevin Custer List Owner
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Kevin, I think that you meant the amperage to the load (a motor) is UNCHANGED with and without the device. I didn't notice the kwh reading on the meter. Good catch! 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Custer Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:54 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor I took the time to view their short video. http://www.power-save.com/1200.html They show the Amperage to the load (a motor) is changed with and without the Power Saver. Notice I said Amperage not KiloWatt Hours. KWH's are not referenced in the video, and is what you actually pay for for most residences. I wasn't sure exactly what the meter they were using was reading, so I downloaded the manual and read through it to see what was being displayed: http://www.tequipment.net/pdf/LEM/2050_man.pdf Page 14 tells the story here... If you look closely, the hand-held meter is simultaneously reading kW (the upper most reading). In the first demonstration, the kWh reading does not change with the unit on or off. In the latter two demonstrations, the kW reading GOES UP. I'm uncertain why the kWh reading (the reading closest to the bottom) doesn't show the change, maybe the meter takes a while to recalculate Smoke - Mirrors... So, you pay $300 (plus installation) to benefit the power company; which you get nothing in return, other than it possibly costing YOU more money on your electric bill. Kevin Custer List Owner Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Gary Schafer wrote: Kevin, I think that you meant the amperage to the load (a motor) is UNCHANGED with and without the device. I wasn't very clear What I meant was the amperage to the load from the first ammeter is changed by the presence the unit. Of course, the amperage to the load from the second ammeter is unchanged with or without the device; which goes on to prove the unit really doesn't do anything... It sure doesn't save on the motor! Kevin
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
The kWh reading didn't change because the time was too short. If they ran the test for an hour on, reset the meter, then an hour off you could have more easily seen a result -- it wouldn't have mattered -- no savings. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - If you look closely, the hand-held meter is simultaneously reading kW (the upper most reading). In the first demonstration, the kWh reading does not change with the unit on or off. In the latter two demonstrations, the kW reading GOES UP. I'm uncertain why the kWh reading (the reading closest to the bottom) doesn't show the change, maybe the meter takes a while to recalculate Smoke - Mirrors...
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
You always have to be on the look out for any product that states as seen on TV - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer kug...@kuggie.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Gary Schafer wrote: Kevin, I think that you meant the amperage to the load (a motor) is UNCHANGED with and without the device. I wasn't very clear What I meant was the amperage to the load from the first ammeter is changed by the presence the unit. Of course, the amperage to the load from the second ammeter is unchanged with or without the device; which goes on to prove the unit really doesn't do anything... It sure doesn't save on the motor! Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
No you wouldn't have seen any change in the kwh reading in an hour because there is no change in real power which is what kwh is. If you were measuring kva (volt amperes) then that would change. I would assume that the kwh reading on the (handheld) meter would be instantaneous. Otherwise you would have to wait an hour in order for it to give you a reading of any kind. No different than reading horse power on a meter on a dyno. Or for that mater even rpm on an rpm meter. You don't have to wait a full minute or read revs per minute. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor The kWh reading didn't change because the time was too short. If they ran the test for an hour on, reset the meter, then an hour off you could have more easily seen a result -- it wouldn't have mattered -- no savings. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - If you look closely, the hand-held meter is simultaneously reading kW (the upper most reading). In the first demonstration, the kWh reading does not change with the unit on or off. In the latter two demonstrations, the kW reading GOES UP. I'm uncertain why the kWh reading (the reading closest to the bottom) doesn't show the change, maybe the meter takes a while to recalculate Smoke - Mirrors... Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
-Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Custer Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:33 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Gary Schafer wrote: Kevin, I think that you meant the amperage to the load (a motor) is UNCHANGED with and without the device. I wasn't very clear What I meant was the amperage to the load from the first ammeter is changed by the presence the unit. Of course, the amperage to the load from the second ammeter is unchanged with or without the device; which goes on to prove the unit really doesn't do anything... It sure doesn't save on the motor! Kevin Exactly Kevin! And to further this,, I am assuming that the first ammeter is on the line between the meter and the device and the second ammeter is on the line between the device and the motor. 73 Gary K4FMX
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
You misunderstood my comment. I agree, there would have been no difference in the readings whether the device was on or off. However the kWh reading would have changed had it been left on long enough, and there was load. Kevin said that the kWh reading didn't change and didn't understand why. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer gascha...@comcast.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:51 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor No you wouldn't have seen any change in the kwh reading in an hour because there is no change in real power which is what kwh is. If you were measuring kva (volt amperes) then that would change.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Sorry Chuck, yes I did misunderstand your comment. I got ahead of myself on kw verses kwh. You are right. Thanks! Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:03 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor You misunderstood my comment. I agree, there would have been no difference in the readings whether the device was on or off. However the kWh reading would have changed had it been left on long enough, and there was load. Kevin said that the kWh reading didn't change and didn't understand why. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer gascha...@comcast.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:51 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor No you wouldn't have seen any change in the kwh reading in an hour because there is no change in real power which is what kwh is. If you were measuring kva (volt amperes) then that would change. Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Kevin, Thank you for revealing that some power-saving TV ads are nothing more than snake-oil pitches. What is never explained clearly is that these green machines simply lower the voltage until the motor (usually in a washing machine- which spends a lot of time lightly loaded) is drawing its current nearly in phase with the applied voltage- bringing its power factor close to unity. However, that does not save any money, because the work of sloshing the water around has not changed, and therefore the kWh has not changed. The snake-oil pitchmen hope that the unwashed multitudes will be so blown away with the smoke and mirrors act that they will part with their hard-earned money. Not only will these devices not save any money, but they will never provide any return on the investment of the purchase price. My former next-door neighbor was the stereotypical patsy for every such as seen on TV! scam, and he must have spent thousands of dollars on so-called Fire Injectors (Run your car without spark plugs!) to magnetic water softeners (Get infinite soft water without using any salt!). It never ceases to amaze me that there are so many naive people in the world! I will now reveal to the Repeater-Builder list members the sure-fire way to reduce electric bills: Get rid of that clunker refrigerator or freezer in the garage! Case in point: A co-worker remarked that his electric bill was about $120 per month, while mine was about $55. When I learned that he had an old (1955 vintage) Norge freezer in his garage, I lent him a portable kWh meter for a couple of weeks, to measure that freezer's power consumption. It turned out that the one Norge freezer was responsible for just over 1/3 of his power bill! On my urging, he turned it in to PGE for a rebate and bought a new Energy Star freezer. In less than four months, he saved enough on his electric bill to pay for the appliance. A word to the wise... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Custer Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:54 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor I took the time to view their short video. http://www.power-save.com/1200.html http://www.power-save.com/1200.html They show the Amperage to the load (a motor) is changed with and without the Power Saver. Notice I said Amperage not KiloWatt Hours. KWH's are not referenced in the video, and is what you actually pay for for most residences. I wasn't sure exactly what the meter they were using was reading, so I downloaded the manual and read through it to see what was being displayed: http://www.tequipment.net/pdf/LEM/2050_man.pdf http://www.tequipment.net/pdf/LEM/2050_man.pdf Page 14 tells the story here... If you look closely, the hand-held meter is simultaneously reading kW (the upper most reading). In the first demonstration, the kWh reading does not change with the unit on or off. In the latter two demonstrations, the kW reading GOES UP. I'm uncertain why the kWh reading (the reading closest to the bottom) doesn't show the change, maybe the meter takes a while to recalculate Smoke - Mirrors... So, you pay $300 (plus installation) to benefit the power company; which you get nothing in return, other than it possibly costing YOU more money on your electric bill. Kevin Custer List Owner
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
To all interested: I have examined my customers energy bills and there is a power factor number displayed on every bill, in this case .85 or 85%. Now I don't know if the meter reader actually is reading that off the meter every month or not, I suspect they are only interested in the kWh and demand reading each month but if you watch the digital meter it does display KVAR and some number as it steps through four or five different readings, guess it would be nice to know what all those other readings are. Now for the rest of the story. I called the utility company, Consumers Energy in this case and asked if my customer would get a lower rate if he were to bring his power factor closer to unity. The answer was no. There is no rate decrease for power factors of 80% or greater only an increase if he drops below 80% even though he spends a couple thousand on average a month, power factor correction would not benefit him unless his power factor drooped below 80%. In a nut shell, the only people to benefit by installing these energy saving gizmos are the people who sell and install them and the power company, don't let anybody try to tell you any different. The customer had the gizmo salesman call and talk to me and tell me how it worked, he said It stores the power until you need it then it puts it back in to line Quote from their website: http://energy-saver.org/ The Electric Meter Miser The Best Place to Earn up to a 30% Return! Packed with energy storing capacitors, it holds excess energy until you are ready to draw more from the power grid. Most appliance motors operate and expend wasted energy forcing you to demand more energy from your power source. This energy-saver stores electricity keeping your bill down to affordable levels. How could I argue with that? Here is my favorite you tube video, toward the end he is showing a power factor meter device hooked up to a typical house with an energy gizmo. With the gizmo off the power factor is .05 thats right 5%, with the unit on it is increased to .98. How could I argue with that? tom-n8ies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOaGB_ehaHM object width=425 height=344param name=movie value=http://www.youtube.com/v/sOaGB_ehaHMhl=enfs=1;/paramparam name=allowFullScreen value=true/paramparam name=allowscriptaccess value=always/paramembed src=http://www.youtube.com/v/sOaGB_ehaHMhl=enfs=1; type=application/x-shockwave-flash allowscriptaccess=always allowfullscreen=true width=425 height=344/embed/object
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Forgot to add this: It's kind of like the fuel powder you put in your gas tank to increase your mileage. AUSTIN Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott obtained a temporary restraining order and limited asset freeze Monday against Forum Trading, Inc. The states legal enforcement action charges the Texas-based company, which is organized as a multi-level marketing scheme with independent distributors, with marketing energy devices it falsely claims will significantly reduce power consumption, extend the life of household appliances and save consumers money. full story here http://www.oag.state.tx.us/consumer/release_view.php?id=2456 tom-n8ies Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Hello group, I need to chime in here and ask about a device that being sold as an enhancement for saving electrical energy in a residence. The device is called Power-Save 1200 and you can see it at www.power-save.com. From what I can glean from the web site it's a power factor correction device that attaches to the load center wiring panel.via 3 wires; 2 are attached to a dedicated 20 amp 2 pole 220 volt circuit breaker, the other remaining wire is attached to ground. The instructions go on to say that this device is designed to condition all power consumed by inductive loads (electric motors) in the home regardless of installation location. Their web site states: SAVE UP TO 25% ON YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILLS! (Direct quote). There is a video on the web site that shows a volt / amp meter reading before and after the device is activated. The unit sells for $299.95 + shipping handling. The dealer who told me about this device states that the unit will pay for itself over time. My brother in law is an electrician and we have gotten into a lively discussion about this device and the theory behind it. I say that while the device will probably work as advertised, it may not provide a complete savings to the owner as it is attached to the load center and not the individual motor. In essence, isn't the power company getting some benefit of this device since it's attached to the grid via the breakers which are being fed by the power company? TIA for your comments. Don Kupferschmidt, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon wb6...@verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Tom, Excellent questions! The first is easy: Residences and light commercial occupancies have meters that measure real (true) power only. That's because only real power does work, and that's what you are paying for. The classic kWh meter with the spinning aluminum disk was perfected by Ferraris and Shallenberger more than a century ago, and millions are in service today. The most recent improvement is a magnetically-levitated disk that nearly eliminates any errors due to bearing friction. A revenue-grade kWh meter is extremely accurate, and very seldom requires service. True power is consumed only when the applied voltage and the resulting current are in phase. In this specific case, volts times amps equals watts. When the current is not in phase with the applied voltage, we enter the mysterious world of apparent power, which is expressed as volt-amperes. Nearly all apparent power seems to be consumed by inductive apparatus such as motors and transformers, except that such currents are returned to the source as the magnetic field collapses. Suffice it to say that the current actually flows in the circuit, but it does no real work. When the power factor (PF) is poor, a lot of current flows in the circuit that must be provided by the utility through larger diameter wires and bigger transformers. Since PF is the ratio of true power to apparent power, the utilities are always looking for ways to keep the PF close to unity, so that they can put off installing thicker wires and bigger substations. As an incentive for heavily-motored industries to increase the PF, some substantial penalties are levied on those who don't correct their PF. The easy way to increase the typical PF is to add parallel capacitance so that the inductive reactance is compensated by capacitive reactance. The goal is to get the PF above 0.95. Another reason for adding capacitors across the line is for voltage regulation. In rural areas with long distribution lines- usually at 12,000 volts- the voltage drop due to reactive currents can be significant. The utility will add capacitor banks every few miles to help keep voltage drop within narrow limits. This is as good a time as any to state that the standard nominal utilization voltage in the United States is 120/240 VAC on single-phase systems, and 120/208 VAC on three-phase systems. There hasn't been 110 or 220 in this nation for more than half a century, but some (usually older) folk still use those terms. The standard kWh meter does its magic by using a simple principle. The torque on the aluminum disk is caused by two coils (or sets of coils) that create a combined magnetic field. One coil creates a magnetic field proportional to the applied voltage, while the other coil creates a magnetic field proportional to the line current. When both voltage and current are present, the disk spins. A small permanent magnet acts as an eddy-current brake, and ensures that the speed of the disk's rotation is exactly proportional to the product of voltage and current that are in phase- true power. The disk is geared to a register that records the revolutions over time, resulting in power times time- energy
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Your question was already answered. No savings UNLESS the customer is being billed for reactive demand (KVAR). Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Don Kupferschmidt d...@httpd.org To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Hello group, I need to chime in here and ask about a device that being sold as an enhancement for saving electrical energy in a residence. The device is called Power-Save 1200 and you can see it at www.power-save.com. From what I can glean from the web site it's a power factor correction device that attaches to the load center wiring panel.via 3 wires; 2 are attached to a dedicated 20 amp 2 pole 220 volt circuit breaker, the other remaining wire is attached to ground. The instructions go on to say that this device is designed to condition all power consumed by inductive loads (electric motors) in the home regardless of installation location. SNIP
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Chuck is right. Typically power factor correction is an industrial issue (not residential). Perhaps the utilities are implementing power factor correction penalties to resi customers in other parts of the country, but not in my neck of the woods. I've put many PFC proposals together for industrial facilities, as I'm an outside salesman for an electrical distributor. Nathan N5REL Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:53:08 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Your question was already answered. No savings UNLESS the customer is being billed for reactive demand (KVAR). Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Don Kupferschmidt d...@httpd.org mailto:don%40httpd.org To: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Hello group, I need to chime in here and ask about a device that being sold as an enhancement for saving electrical energy in a residence. The device is called Power-Save 1200 and you can see it at www.power-save.com. From what I can glean from the web site it's a power factor correction device that attaches to the load center wiring panel.via 3 wires; 2 are attached to a dedicated 20 amp 2 pole 220 volt circuit breaker, the other remaining wire is attached to ground. The instructions go on to say that this device is designed to condition all power consumed by inductive loads (electric motors) in the home regardless of installation location. SNIP Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
My question is this: Are new energy star compliant appliances power factor corrected? In other words: To get the energy star compliance sticker, are they required to put enough capacitance in their product to correct the phase angle to 0? If they are already required to do this for compliance, isn't this going to be a self-correcting situation as time goes on. (Excuse the pun) Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Rd Boswell, PA 15531 - Original Message - From: Nathan Bailey n@live.com To: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com; Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Chuck is right. Typically power factor correction is an industrial issue (not residential). Perhaps the utilities are implementing power factor correction penalties to resi customers in other parts of the country, but not in my neck of the woods. I've put many PFC proposals together for industrial facilities, as I'm an outside salesman for an electrical distributor. Nathan N5REL Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:53:08 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Your question was already answered. No savings UNLESS the customer is being billed for reactive demand (KVAR). Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Don Kupferschmidt d...@httpd.org mailto:don%40httpd.org To: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Hello group, I need to chime in here and ask about a device that being sold as an enhancement for saving electrical energy in a residence. The device is called Power-Save 1200 and you can see it at www.power-save.com. From what I can glean from the web site it's a power factor correction device that attaches to the load center wiring panel.via 3 wires; 2 are attached to a dedicated 20 amp 2 pole 220 volt circuit breaker, the other remaining wire is attached to ground. The instructions go on to say that this device is designed to condition all power consumed by inductive loads (electric motors) in the home regardless of installation location. SNIP Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1943 - Release Date: 02/10/09 07:20:00 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Yes, there are PF requirements for Energy Star products. Chuck - Original Message - From: Scott Zimmerman n3...@repeater-builder.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor My question is this: Are new energy star compliant appliances power factor corrected? In other words: To get the energy star compliance sticker, are they required to put enough capacitance in their product to correct the phase angle to 0? If they are already required to do this for compliance, isn't this going to be a self-correcting situation as time goes on. (Excuse the pun) Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Rd Boswell, PA 15531 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
The device works by changing the voltage waveform to get the most work for the least energy. NASA came up with idea many years ago, and it does work well. I think this was designed more for household appliances and such, not repeater systems, unless you are counting the cooler that holds the 807's... 73 Mike - N7ZEF - Original Message - From: Don Kupferschmidt d...@httpd.org To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Hello group, I need to chime in here and ask about a device that being sold as an enhancement for saving electrical energy in a residence. The device is called Power-Save 1200 and you can see it at www.power-save.com. From what I can glean from the web site it's a power factor correction device that attaches to the load center wiring panel.via 3 wires; 2 are attached to a dedicated 20 amp 2 pole 220 volt circuit breaker, the other remaining wire is attached to ground. The instructions go on to say that this device is designed to condition all power consumed by inductive loads (electric motors) in the home regardless of installation location. Their web site states: SAVE UP TO 25% ON YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILLS! (Direct quote). There is a video on the web site that shows a volt / amp meter reading before and after the device is activated. The unit sells for $299.95 + shipping handling. The dealer who told me about this device states that the unit will pay for itself over time. My brother in law is an electrician and we have gotten into a lively discussion about this device and the theory behind it. I say that while the device will probably work as advertised, it may not provide a complete savings to the owner as it is attached to the load center and not the individual motor. In essence, isn't the power company getting some benefit of this device since it's attached to the grid via the breakers which are being fed by the power company? TIA for your comments. Don Kupferschmidt, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon wb6...@verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Tom, Excellent questions! The first is easy: Residences and light commercial occupancies have meters that measure real (true) power only. That's because only real power does work, and that's what you are paying for. The classic kWh meter with the spinning aluminum disk was perfected by Ferraris and Shallenberger more than a century ago, and millions are in service today. The most recent improvement is a magnetically-levitated disk that nearly eliminates any errors due to bearing friction. A revenue-grade kWh meter is extremely accurate, and very seldom requires service. True power is consumed only when the applied voltage and the resulting current are in phase. In this specific case, volts times amps equals watts. When the current is not in phase with the applied voltage, we enter the mysterious world of apparent power, which is expressed as volt-amperes. Nearly all apparent power seems to be consumed by inductive apparatus such as motors and transformers, except that such currents are returned to the source as the magnetic field collapses. Suffice it to say that the current actually flows in the circuit, but it does no real work. When the power factor (PF) is poor, a lot of current flows in the circuit that must be provided by the utility through larger diameter wires and bigger transformers. Since PF is the ratio of true power to apparent power, the utilities are always looking for ways to keep the PF close to unity, so that they can put off installing thicker wires and bigger substations. As an incentive for heavily-motored industries to increase the PF, some substantial penalties are levied on those who don't correct their PF. The easy way to increase the typical PF is to add parallel capacitance so that the inductive reactance is compensated by capacitive reactance. The goal is to get the PF above 0.95. Another reason for adding capacitors across the line is for voltage regulation. In rural areas with long distribution lines- usually at 12,000 volts- the voltage drop due to reactive currents can be significant. The utility will add capacitor banks every few miles to help keep voltage drop within narrow limits. This is as good a time as any to state that the standard nominal utilization voltage in the United States is 120/240 VAC on single-phase systems, and 120/208 VAC on three-phase systems. There hasn't been 110 or 220 in this nation for more than half a century, but some (usually older) folk still use those terms. The standard kWh meter does its magic by using a simple principle. The torque on the aluminum disk is caused by two coils (or sets of coils) that create a combined magnetic field. One coil creates a magnetic field
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Depends. Some customers are metered for reactive demand. It would matter then. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Thomas Oliver To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 2:43 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Question for any electrical engineers out there. Are the meters on the side of buildings metering real power or apparent power? Is power factor correction worth doing if the power company is not dinging the customer for low power factor? This article http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf talks about residential power factor correction and my conclusion (from this article) is the savings would never be recouped. Second conclusion is the only benefit with correction is the wires between the source and load don't heat up as much. What about the wires in the motor or transformer? do they also heat less? I would think so. Third conclusion is by correcting power factor you are helping the utility company more than yourself because these phase differences standing waves exist all the way back to the power generation source therefore the utility lines have more loss due to their greater length than the customers building wiring has. The reason I am researching this is a customer of mine has roughly 50 hp of total motors in his shop and wanted to know if he could save 30% on his electric bill like some salesman of power factor correction black boxes told him he could. I realize I am going to have to look at his energy bill to see if there is a charge for low power factor and maybe call the utility company to see if he will get a lower rate if he adds PFC devices tom (\__/) ... (='.'=) ()_()
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Very interesting subject. People don't seem to be concerned about what kind of energy they are receiving from electric power company suppliers. I've asked previously for information about what people get in their homes and repeater sites with only one response telling me taps are available to solve a high or low problem. Do phase shift capacitors have an effect on our home our test equipment, repeaters? The AC specs here are 115.2 - 124.8. A calibrated NBS Fluke 77 reads consistently on the high end, and frequently up as high as 128. The power company engineer says they can do nothing about it, that taps do not exist anywhere in the system to lower the line voltage. Only phase shift capacitors. Our older test equipment designed around a 115 volt line plus AC motors, power transformers can have a problem with saturation. On a room to room/ garage/ shop investigation how many transformers, motors are in your dweling? Those big honker 30 amp or higher power supplies on repeaters going up in smoke. What's in your walletI mean your electric service line? GaryK2UQ In a message dated 2/9/2009 7:30:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, wb2...@roadrunner.com writes: Depends. Some customers are metered for reactive demand. It would matter then. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: _Thomas Oliver_ (mailto:tsoli...@tir.com) To: _repeater-buil...@repeater-buirep_ (mailto:repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com) Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 2:43 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Question for any electrical engineers out there. Are the meters on the side of buildings metering real power or apparent power? Is power factor correction worth doing if the power company is not dinging the customer for low power factor? This article _http://powerelectrohttp://pohttp://powerelechttp://powerehttp://powehttp://pohtt_ (http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf) talks about residential power factor correction and my conclusion (from this article) is the savings would never be recouped. Second conclusion is the only benefit with correction is the wires between the source and load don't heat up as much. What about the wires in the motor or transformer? do they also heat less? I would think so. Third conclusion is by correcting power factor you are helping the utility company more than yourself because these phase differences standing waves exist all the way back to the power generation source therefore the utility lines have more loss due to their greater length than the customers building wiring has. The reason I am researching this is a customer of mine has roughly 50 hp of total motors in his shop and wanted to know if he could save 30% on his electric bill like some salesman of power factor correction black boxes told him he could. I realize I am going to have to look at his energy bill to see if there is a charge for low power factor and maybe call the utility company to see if he will get a lower rate if he adds PFC devices tom (\__/) ... (='.'=) ()_() **Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi0003)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
114 to 126 is typically the standard in the USA. Many transformers have taps internally to adjust for this, but some utilities order them without taps to save a few bucks. Chuck - Original Message - From: albemar...@aol.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Very interesting subject. People don't seem to be concerned about what kind of energy they are receiving from electric power company suppliers. I've asked previously for information about what people get in their homes and repeater sites with only one response telling me taps are available to solve a high or low problem. Do phase shift capacitors have an effect on our home our test equipment, repeaters? The AC specs here are 115.2 - 124.8. A calibrated NBS Fluke 77 reads consistently on the high end, and frequently up as high as 128. The power company engineer says they can do nothing about it, that taps do not exist anywhere in the system to lower the line voltage. Only phase shift capacitors. Our older test equipment designed around a 115 volt line plus AC motors, power transformers can have a problem with saturation. On a room to room/ garage/ shop investigation how many transformers, motors are in your dweling? Those big honker 30 amp or higher power supplies on repeaters going up in smoke. What's in your walletI mean your electric service line? GaryK2UQ
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Your typical home meter measures only real power consumed. There is no such thing as reactive power being delivered to you. Any reactive power that you may be concerned with will originate on your side of the meter at the load. You really don't care about it there either as long as the extra current does not cause excess resistive loss in your wires going to the meter. You could hang a large capacitor across one of your outlets and draw say 20 amps of current and the power meter would barely move. The only power that would be consumed would be from any resistive drop in the wire between your capacitor and the meter and any losses in the capacitor. The power company usually cares about large amounts of reactive power as it shows up to them as additional line loss. 73 Gary K4 FMX _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of albemar...@aol.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:39 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Very interesting subject. People don't seem to be concerned about what kind of energy they are receiving from electric power company suppliers. I've asked previously for information about what people get in their homes and repeater sites with only one response telling me taps are available to solve a high or low problem. Do phase shift capacitors have an effect on our home our test equipment, repeaters? The AC specs here are 115.2 - 124.8. A calibrated NBS Fluke 77 reads consistently on the high end, and frequently up as high as 128. The power company engineer says they can do nothing about it, that taps do not exist anywhere in the system to lower the line voltage. Only phase shift capacitors. Our older test equipment designed around a 115 volt line plus AC motors, power transformers can have a problem with saturation. On a room to room/ garage/ shop investigation how many transformers, motors are in your dweling? Those big honker 30 amp or higher power supplies on repeaters going up in smoke. What's in your walletI mean your electric service line? GaryK2UQ In a message dated 2/9/2009 7:30:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, wb2...@roadrunner.com writes: Depends. Some customers are metered for reactive demand. It would matter then. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Thomas Oliver mailto:tsoli...@tir.com To: repeater-builder@ mailto:repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 2:43 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Question for any electrical engineers out there. Are the meters on the side of buildings metering real power or apparent power? Is power factor correction worth doing if the power company is not dinging the customer for low power factor? This article http://powerelectro http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET2 3.pdf nics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf talks about residential power factor correction and my conclusion (from this article) is the savings would never be recouped. Second conclusion is the only benefit with correction is the wires between the source and load don't heat up as much. What about the wires in the motor or transformer? do they also heat less? I would think so. Third conclusion is by correcting power factor you are helping the utility company more than yourself because these phase differences standing waves exist all the way back to the power generation source therefore the utility lines have more loss due to their greater length than the customers building wiring has. The reason I am researching this is a customer of mine has roughly 50 hp of total motors in his shop and wanted to know if he could save 30% on his electric bill like some salesman of power factor correction black boxes told him he could. I realize I am going to have to look at his energy bill to see if there is a charge for low power factor and maybe call the utility company to see if he will get a lower rate if he adds PFC devices tom (\__/) ... (='.'=) ()_() _ Who's never won? Biggest http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi0 003 Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Question for any electrical engineers out there. Are the meters on the side of buildings metering real power or apparent power? Is power factor correction worth doing if the power company is not dinging the customer for low power factor? This article http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23 .pdf http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET2 3.pdf talks about residential power factor correction and my conclusion (from this article) is the savings would never be recouped. Second conclusion is the only benefit with correction is the wires between the source and load don't heat up as much. What about the wires in the motor or transformer? do they also heat less? I would think so. Third conclusion is by correcting power factor you are helping the utility company more than yourself because these phase differences standing waves exist all the way back to the power generation source therefore the utility lines have more loss due to their greater length than the customers building wiring has. The reason I am researching this is a customer of mine has roughly 50 hp of total motors in his shop and wanted to know if he could save 30% on his electric bill like some salesman of power factor correction black boxes told him he could. I realize I am going to have to look at his energy bill to see if there is a charge for low power factor and maybe call the utility company to see if he will get a lower rate if he adds PFC devices tom (\__/) ... (='.'=) ()_()
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Another point regarding line voltage issues, the distance from the substation or distribution system voltage regulators to the load may determine what you may see at the wall plug. Typically homes located closer to the substation (or regulator bank) will see higher voltages than those further away. This can be compensated for by the utility by changing the pole transformer taps, assuming that the transformer has taps. It can be a bit of a balancing act for the utility to hit that happy medium. Add to this the fact that many utilities implement load control measures in an attempt to curtail additional purchased power costs during adverse temperature extremes, especially during cold months. They shed load by reducing the line voltage for a period of time. Most customers never realize this, but it sometimes forces the utility to run their normal line voltages slightly high in order to have the headroom to be able to implement reductions, sometimes in multiple steps. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon wb6...@verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 9:09 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor Tom, Excellent questions! The first is easy: Residences and light commercial occupancies have meters that measure real (true) power only. That's because only real power does work, and that's what you are paying for. The classic kWh meter with the spinning aluminum disk was perfected by Ferraris and Shallenberger more than a century ago, and millions are in service today. The most recent improvement is a magnetically-levitated disk that nearly eliminates any errors due to bearing friction. A revenue-grade kWh meter is extremely accurate, and very seldom requires service. [SNIP]
[Repeater-Builder] OT Power Factor
Question for any electrical engineers out there. Are the meters on the side of buildings metering real power or apparent power? Is power factor correction worth doing if the power company is not dinging the customer for low power factor? This article http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf talks about residential power factor correction and my conclusion (from this article) is the savings would never be recouped. Second conclusion is the only benefit with correction is the wires between the source and load don't heat up as much. What about the wires in the motor or transformer? do they also heat less? I would think so. Third conclusion is by correcting power factor you are helping the utility company more than yourself because these phase differences standing waves exist all the way back to the power generation source therefore the utility lines have more loss due to their greater length than the customers building wiring has. The reason I am researching this is a customer of mine has roughly 50 hp of total motors in his shop and wanted to know if he could save 30% on his electric bill like some salesman of power factor correction black boxes told him he could. I realize I am going to have to look at his energy bill to see if there is a charge for low power factor and maybe call the utility company to see if he will get a lower rate if he adds PFC devices tom (\__/) ... (='.'=) ()_()
