Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
And actually the DC distribution system was more common than you think. I recently was up at the Mt. Wilson observatory and was inside the 100-inch telescope dome. ALL of the controls for the telescope, the dome slit motors (the ones that slide the panel open the telescope to look through), the dome rotation motor (which is surprisingly small for the load), everything but the overhead lighting is 120v DC. And has been since about 1918. Even the ballast tubes for the control are original carbon filament bulbs. I have alot of photos/ Mike WA6ILQ At 02:13 AM 08/24/10, you wrote: We had our fill of those here, too. The hot side of the AC line (if you were lucky, polarized plugs were rare in those days) was connected directly to a 35W4 or some such half wave rectifier tube and later to a selenium half wave rectifier with the other side of the AC line being connected as the negative lead (fortunately NOT to the chassis). Usually, there were a couple of 0.01uf capacitors from each side of the line to the chassis, however. Doubt I need to explain the joys one could experience with that arrangement! And, to top it off, each and every one of those radios proudly bore our UL stamp of approval! They used to call them AC/DC radios because, if you lucked out and got the polarity right, the radio didn't care what the source was as long as it was somewhere near 100 volts DC or RMS. Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Cooper zl...@... wrote: Another quirk. Sixty plus years ago in England, power factor was not the main concern. Many of the domestic radio receivers were transformerless and used half-wave rectification to obtain D.C. for the tubes. A consequence was a fair dose of D.C. flowing in the street power mains. Gordon ZL1KL Tauranga N.Z. Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
We had our fill of those here, too. The hot side of the AC line (if you were lucky, polarized plugs were rare in those days) was connected directly to a 35W4 or some such half wave rectifier tube and later to a selenium half wave rectifier with the other side of the AC line being connected as the negative lead (fortunately NOT to the chassis). Usually, there were a couple of 0.01uf capacitors from each side of the line to the chassis, however. Doubt I need to explain the joys one could experience with that arrangement! And, to top it off, each and every one of those radios proudly bore our UL stamp of approval! They used to call them AC/DC radios because, if you lucked out and got the polarity right, the radio didn't care what the source was as long as it was somewhere near 100 volts DC or RMS. Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Cooper zl...@... wrote: Another quirk. Sixty plus years ago in England, power factor was not the main concern. Many of the domestic radio receivers were transformerless and used half-wave rectification to obtain D.C. for the tubes. A consequence was a fair dose of D.C. flowing in the street power mains. Gordon ZL1KL Tauranga N.Z.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Yes, I agree with this. The discussion originally centered around doing this at repeater sites. I'm just attempting to gather more info from the guy who said it worked. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: ae6zm wesbfl...@surewest.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:17 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill When in comes to matters of science, there will always be some who step forward with anecdotal 'evidence' that they have experienced something that contradicts accepted scientific knowledge. Using caps to reduce your power bill is one of those myths. Your power meter is a true watt meter, and is very carefully designed and tested to measure, react to and record only true watts, and not react to reactive power. (pun!!) Yes, installing corrective capacitors can reduce your power bill, but not because it changes your meter reading; it doesn't. For industrial users, a poor PF results in penalty charges from the utility, and improving the PF by adding capacitive VAs ( or KVAs) can reduce the penalties, thereby reducing your bill. This is not really a repeater topic, but power bills are a real part of repeater use, so it is useful to understand the real 'science'. Wes AE6ZM VE7ELE GROL/RADAR ARRL Technical Specialist Lincoln, CA CM98iv --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Bon Hal bhbru...@... wrote: Bill: Check this out. Is It possible that the device might actually reduce electrical usage? Hal - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
My Elmer, W6NTK (SK) his son worked for PGE. I was 12 years old then but I noticed at his power panel he had a bank of capacitors wired into his panel. He explained to me he had these on to eliminate the big surge when the well pump or any big loads came on. He asked if I remember seeing these capacitors along the power lines. He explained that the power system was a transmission system and that to keep the system in tune they had to add capacitance along the long runs to balance the system. And that he was doing the same on his panel. I asked so does this lower your bill and he said not really but it can reduce spikes in the draw. He then tried to explain some math and being 12 that started sounding like school work and he lost me. Thank you for brining this up I have not thought about my Elmer in a long time. I wish I had paid more attention to some of the things he taught. Hopefully the group can turn mu 12 year old memory into some theory this old dog can chew on. Maybe I can use this info to reduce power usage at the repeater. :-) -Kevin _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ae6zm Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:18 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill When in comes to matters of science, there will always be some who step forward with anecdotal 'evidence' that they have experienced something that contradicts accepted scientific knowledge. Using caps to reduce your power bill is one of those myths. Your power meter is a true watt meter, and is very carefully designed and tested to measure, react to and record only true watts, and not react to reactive power. (pun!!) Yes, installing corrective capacitors can reduce your power bill, but not because it changes your meter reading; it doesn't. For industrial users, a poor PF results in penalty charges from the utility, and improving the PF by adding capacitive VAs ( or KVAs) can reduce the penalties, thereby reducing your bill. This is not really a repeater topic, but power bills are a real part of repeater use, so it is useful to understand the real 'science'. Wes AE6ZM VE7ELE GROL/RADAR ARRL Technical Specialist Lincoln, CA CM98iv --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com , Bon Hal bhbru...@... wrote: Bill: Check this out. Is It possible that the device might actually reduce electrical usage? Hal - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Very nice explanation of the issue. Just to clarify a point or two, industrial users benefit directly from PF correction of their plants largely because the utility supplier either: a. doesnt' penalize them for low PF, and/or b. credits them for PF above say .90. Payback for PF correction equipment for them is often very fast, maybe just a few months. The residential or light commercial user's PF is not tracked nor billed, so there is very little to gain money-wise by raising PF. Laryn K8TVZ
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gary Schafer gascha...@... wrote: The other thing involved if you are going to do power factor correction is that it needs to be done on EACH motor or inductive device. That's the best way, and we did do that, but it can be useful to float some amount of capacitance across the line. We did this where I worked. We had five primary substations that we owned, with their (obviously) inductive transformers, plus enough random loads going on and off all night. Our PF maybe have been above 1.0 at times, but we didn't worry about it. Our billed PF was always above .90, so we earned a nice $100-150 credit to our monthly bill. Trying to sell power factor correction to home owners and small business' is a scam. You save nothing on your bill! Yep! 73 Gary K4FMX Laryn K8TVZ
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
I have installed capacitors on three of the services at work. These three services have power factor penalties if the power factor is worse that 95%. The farther out of phase it is the larger the penalty. I have been able to bring each service back very close to 95% or better, thus eliminating the penalty to the tune of @ $3000 per month. From: Kevin King kc6...@att.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 9:14:31 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill My Elmer, W6NTK (SK) his son worked for PGE. I was 12 years old then but I noticed at his power panel he had a bank of capacitors wired into his panel. He explained to me he had these on to eliminate the big surge when the well pump or any big loads came on. He asked if I remember seeing these capacitors along the power lines. He explained that the power system was a transmission system and that to keep the system in tune they had to add capacitance along the long runs to balance the system. And that he was doing the same on his panel. I asked so does this lower your bill and he said not really but it can reduce spikes in the draw. He then tried to explain some math and being 12 that started sounding like school work and he lost me. Thank you for brining this up I have not thought about my Elmer in a long time. I wish I had paid more attention to some of the things he taught. Hopefully the group can turn mu 12 year old memory into some theory this old dog can chew on. Maybe I can use this info to reduce power usage at the repeater. J -Kevin From:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of ae6zm Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:18 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill When in comes to matters of science, there will always be some who step forward with anecdotal 'evidence' that they have experienced something that contradicts accepted scientific knowledge. Using caps to reduce your power bill is one of those myths. Your power meter is a true watt meter, and is very carefully designed and tested to measure, react to and record only true watts, and not react to reactive power. (pun!!) Yes, installing corrective capacitors can reduce your power bill, but not because it changes your meter reading; it doesn't. For industrial users, a poor PF results in penalty charges from the utility, and improving the PF by adding capacitive VAs ( or KVAs) can reduce the penalties, thereby reducing your bill. This is not really a repeater topic, but power bills are a real part of repeater use, so it is useful to understand the real 'science'. Wes AE6ZM VE7ELE GROL/RADAR ARRL Technical Specialist Lincoln , CA CM98iv --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Bon Hal bhbru...@... wrote: Bill: Check this out. Is It possible that the device might actually reduce electrical usage? Hal - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
When in comes to matters of science, there will always be some who step forward with anecdotal 'evidence' that they have experienced something that contradicts accepted scientific knowledge. Using caps to reduce your power bill is one of those myths. Your power meter is a true watt meter, and is very carefully designed and tested to measure, react to and record only true watts, and not react to reactive power. (pun!!) Yes, installing corrective capacitors can reduce your power bill, but not because it changes your meter reading; it doesn't. For industrial users, a poor PF results in penalty charges from the utility, and improving the PF by adding capacitive VAs ( or KVAs) can reduce the penalties, thereby reducing your bill. This is not really a repeater topic, but power bills are a real part of repeater use, so it is useful to understand the real 'science'. Wes AE6ZM VE7ELE GROL/RADAR ARRL Technical Specialist Lincoln, CA CM98iv --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Bon Hal bhbru...@... wrote: Bill: Check this out. Is It possible that the device might actually reduce electrical usage? Hal - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR
