Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
Much appreciated !! I'll pass the info on (though I think the guy is monitoring the list now hi hi !!) - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver? Sorry, replying to myself... Another website about the USB dongles... http://app-rpt.qrvc.com/usbsoundfob.html Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
I'm just middle-manning this one -- astrisk was rejected by the guy setting up the repeater due to complexity and hardware required -- echolink due to requiring a true connection to the internet -- this has got to work completely within the private network already in existance between the sites, and it must be able to start up on boot and re-establish the connection in case of power failure, preferably as a windows service, though linux has not been rejected. Someone tell me that echolink can be configured for LAN only, or that astersk can be setup for start on boot without using a special radio interface board, and we'll move forward along those lines :)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
John Barrett wrote: Someone tell me that echolink can be configured for LAN only, or that astersk can be setup for start on boot without using a special radio interface board, and we'll move forward along those lines :) Asterisk doesn't require a special radio interface board. There are people using it with USB sound card dongles that have been modified to pull a hardware wire out for logical control of PTT and sensing of COS. You might also want to look into Skip WB2YMH's The Link Box or tlb. It probably can easily do what you're trying to do. It can also use the USB dongles. The first commercially available pre-wired dongle I saw was this one: http://dmkeng.com/Products.htm But there's info on the mailing lists about how to find the appropriate ones via online vendors (need a specific chipset) for about $8 and do the mods to add the in/out logic wiring yourself. Neither of the above overally solutions is plug and play... you gotta work at it a bit. Might have to build tlb from source, even. The only plug and pray setup I know of is the MultiTech device. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
I also see the Asterisk app_rpt folks have documented on their website that someone is building turn-key Asterisk setups for radio linking: http://www.xelatec.com/xippr/ I know nothing about them. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
Sorry, replying to myself... Another website about the USB dongles... http://app-rpt.qrvc.com/usbsoundfob.html Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
I'm consulting with another ham on setting up a one way VoIP link for a split site VHF repeater, RX and TX to be located about 2 miles apart. I've got a tenative solution using and off the shelf streaming audio server and client, with a custom app to poll the PC parallel port for any digial signaling that need to be pulled off the reciever and transfered to the controller/transmitter via another custom app that will output to the parallel port. Is there anything out there a little more integrated that can handle the job, or other suggestions as to a solution ?? Prefered environment is Windows, with some hope that a service app that will run at boot can be found. 2 way solutions like Echolink and Asterisk have already been rejected, as have any solutions that require hardware beyond a PC with a sound card and parallel port. - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver? JOHN MACKEY wrote: Skipp- Everything you say below is correct. But I would still argue that it simply isn't worth it to do all the modifications you suggest to a scanner when you can pick up a good receiver from a Motrac/Micor/MastrII/MastrPro for $25 at a hamfest or ebay and have a receiver that is still better than the modified scanner. Heck, at the hamfest I was at yesterday, there were two Micors already duplexed, a Mastr II already duplexed, and a Mastr Pro sitting in a pile on a table with a sign that said $25 takes all, if I read it correctly. I looked at the MASTR II -- it was a 66-split (VHF). I assume the others were also, don't know. Didn't check. I didn't need any more VHF stuff... Seller was Dutch, K0AWS ... if someone wants to try to hunt him down to buy any of it. His club is: http://www.ab0pc.org/ There ya go... a real guess what I saw at a hamfest story, but with real follow-up information on who was selling the stuff. Happy gear hunting... Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
Have you looked at SvxLink? This is not Windows, but Linux. The installation is not complicated, and with SvxLink you only need a PC, no external hardware. At our repeater we use two or three RX linked in via internet. On the reciver sites the only needed hardware is the RX itself and a PC. The PC should be a 200MHz CPU or more. SvxLink can handle all DTMF decoding, CTCSS, Voting etc. http://svxlink.sf.net 73 de Gus, SG3P
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
John Barrett wrote: Is there anything out there a little more integrated that can handle the job, or other suggestions as to a solution ?? Prefered environment is Windows, with some hope that a service app that will run at boot can be found. 2 way solutions like Echolink and Asterisk have already been rejected, as have any solutions that require hardware beyond a PC with a sound card and parallel port. MultiTech makes a radio linking device for VoIP in a single modem sized box... if you're wanting fully integrated. You can also build all SORTS of commercial telco-like links for a 2 mile shot. There are licensed and unlicensed microwave gear for shooting T1's, T3's, etc... over long distances. 4 Wire EM channel banks are still out there cheap. And there are quite a few solutions that would work well with a PC, a sound card, and a parallel port. None of which run under Windows, if you're already ruling out EchoLink with hardware rig control. So... you're giving us a riddle without a solution if you say that Echolink and Asterisk have already been rejected but don't tell us why. I'm not going to GUESS at your requirements. Lay out what you want it to do, and it'll be a lot easier for those of us who've looked at what's out there to answer your question as to whether or not your requirements can be met. What we have so far: 1. Windows desired - explain? If it's an embedded job, does it matter what OS it runs on? 2. Echolink rejected - What caused it to be thrown out? 3. Asterisk rejected - Same question 4. Minimal hardware - Does sound card include a USB sound dongle? That's the most common way for non-commercial applications to get audio in/out these days. The days of the on-board sound card are fading. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
JOHN MACKEY wrote: Skipp- Everything you say below is correct. But I would still argue that it simply isn't worth it to do all the modifications you suggest to a scanner when you can pick up a good receiver from a Motrac/Micor/MastrII/MastrPro for $25 at a hamfest or ebay and have a receiver that is still better than the modified scanner. Heck, at the hamfest I was at yesterday, there were two Micors already duplexed, a Mastr II already duplexed, and a Mastr Pro sitting in a pile on a table with a sign that said $25 takes all, if I read it correctly. I looked at the MASTR II -- it was a 66-split (VHF). I assume the others were also, don't know. Didn't check. I didn't need any more VHF stuff... Seller was Dutch, K0AWS ... if someone wants to try to hunt him down to buy any of it. His club is: http://www.ab0pc.org/ There ya go... a real guess what I saw at a hamfest story, but with real follow-up information on who was selling the stuff. Happy gear hunting... Nate WY0X
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
I posted the following reply to the group on Aug. 13th and it doesn't appear on the group (although Jeff received my email direct). Here it is again to the group... Re: Re: Scanner as repeater receiver? Hi Jeff, There are some conditions where a scanner receiver could be modified for use in repeater and base station applications. First you can throw away the label/word quality... it's all about the actual circuit design and construction of the scanner in question. Scanners as a general rule are very, very, very wide frequency range receivers with very modest/light/non existent front-end protection, which often leads to other problems you don't normally run into with true communications grade receivers. Some scanners have pretty much the exact same back-end circuit design (with minor differences) as kit communications receivers made and sold for repeater operation. Let me try to quickly talk about one common example. Some older crystal controlled scanners make semi fair repeater receiver candidates with the following considerations: 1. The receiver front-end (pre-selection) should be improved. In most cases the receiver front-end is not usable as-is/found. There are also cases where the antenna input jack is not a true 50 ohm antenna port. The more practical fix is improve the receiver front end protect with an additional filter or seriously modify any usable original circuit. High-Q Helical front-end circuits are/were made and sold, which do work for the cause. I used to like and use the HRA units sold by Hamtronics, but they no longer offer that exact product. Still the HRA Preamp Pre-selector Manual is available on the Hamtronics web-site if you want to see an example. 2. The receiver IF Filter might be wider than the best value for your application. If the scanner IF filter (often referred to as the Crystal Filter but not always a crystal type device) is really a generic/default wide value chosen for typical consumer grade scanner operation. You/I/we can often replace the stock IF Filter with much improved after-market IF Filter products sold by Comm-Spec and other sources. 3. The Squelch circuit might not be the best operational situation for your application. Scanner receivers more often than not have a very mushy consumer grade squelch circuit, which is sometimes easily modified with a common parts value changes. Since many scanners and some communications receivers have similar trailing circuits... it's not hard to find a very similar squelch circuit layout to copy into your application. 4. You would need to tap into the receiver to obtain audio sources and usable COS/COR logic levels. Not hard and that information is available as mentioned just above. The IF and Audio Sections of a receiver are fairly easy to deal with when you have a circuit diagram in hand and the resources of this group available to help you. 5. Some synthesized (programmable) Scanners might not have a stable enough VCO operation for use as a serious receiver. You could often hear hum, warble, noise and Selection D (all the above) in the recovered audio. Once again since many scanners and some communications receivers have similar circuits, it's not super hard to find a comparable VCO layout/circuit to help improve your receiver operation. It would be more of a question of how practical all the parts and effort would be. Another issue is how some synthesized scanners lock/track onto a received signal using common AFC (automatic frequency control) operation. Sometimes you might be required to defeat or modify the AFC Circuit operation. I have seen cases where synthesized scanners were easily stable enough to use as repeater receivers when properly modified as mentioned above. Just a generic overview of what you might be up against when trying to use a Scanner as a candidate for a repeater receiver. Hope this helps a bit... cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com/sonic jstechnicalservice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone used a good quality scanner as a receiver for a repeater and if so, how well did it work? I'm contemplating a Radio Shack PRO-2055 as it seems to have good receive capability and picks up signal better than some of our mobile radios. Jeff Skaggs Concord-Greene FD
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
Skipp- Everything you say below is correct. But I would still argue that it simply isn't worth it to do all the modifications you suggest to a scanner when you can pick up a good receiver from a Motrac/Micor/MastrII/MastrPro for $25 at a hamfest or ebay and have a receiver that is still better than the modified scanner. -- Original Message -- Received: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 04:15:47 PM PDT From: skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver? I posted the following reply to the group on Aug. 13th and it doesn't appear on the group (although Jeff received my email direct). Here it is again to the group... Re: Re: Scanner as repeater receiver? Hi Jeff, There are some conditions where a scanner receiver could be modified for use in repeater and base station applications. First you can throw away the label/word quality... it's all about the actual circuit design and construction of the scanner in question. Scanners as a general rule are very, very, very wide frequency range receivers with very modest/light/non existent front-end protection, which often leads to other problems you don't normally run into with true communications grade receivers. Some scanners have pretty much the exact same back-end circuit design (with minor differences) as kit communications receivers made and sold for repeater operation. Let me try to quickly talk about one common example. Some older crystal controlled scanners make semi fair repeater receiver candidates with the following considerations: 1. The receiver front-end (pre-selection) should be improved. In most cases the receiver front-end is not usable as-is/found. There are also cases where the antenna input jack is not a true 50 ohm antenna port. The more practical fix is improve the receiver front end protect with an additional filter or seriously modify any usable original circuit. High-Q Helical front-end circuits are/were made and sold, which do work for the cause. I used to like and use the HRA units sold by Hamtronics, but they no longer offer that exact product. Still the HRA Preamp Pre-selector Manual is available on the Hamtronics web-site if you want to see an example. 2. The receiver IF Filter might be wider than the best value for your application. If the scanner IF filter (often referred to as the Crystal Filter but not always a crystal type device) is really a generic/default wide value chosen for typical consumer grade scanner operation. You/I/we can often replace the stock IF Filter with much improved after-market IF Filter products sold by Comm-Spec and other sources. 3. The Squelch circuit might not be the best operational situation for your application. Scanner receivers more often than not have a very mushy consumer grade squelch circuit, which is sometimes easily modified with a common parts value changes. Since many scanners and some communications receivers have similar trailing circuits... it's not hard to find a very similar squelch circuit layout to copy into your application. 4. You would need to tap into the receiver to obtain audio sources and usable COS/COR logic levels. Not hard and that information is available as mentioned just above. The IF and Audio Sections of a receiver are fairly easy to deal with when you have a circuit diagram in hand and the resources of this group available to help you. 5. Some synthesized (programmable) Scanners might not have a stable enough VCO operation for use as a serious receiver. You could often hear hum, warble, noise and Selection D (all the above) in the recovered audio. Once again since many scanners and some communications receivers have similar circuits, it's not super hard to find a comparable VCO layout/circuit to help improve your receiver operation. It would be more of a question of how practical all the parts and effort would be. Another issue is how some synthesized scanners lock/track onto a received signal using common AFC (automatic frequency control) operation. Sometimes you might be required to defeat or modify the AFC Circuit operation. I have seen cases where synthesized scanners were easily stable enough to use as repeater receivers when properly modified as mentioned above. Just a generic overview of what you might be up against when trying to use a Scanner as a candidate for a repeater receiver. Hope this helps a bit... cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com/sonic jstechnicalservice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone used a good quality scanner as a receiver for a repeater and if so, how well did it work? I'm contemplating a Radio Shack PRO-2055 as it seems to have good receive capability and picks up signal better than some of our mobile radios. Jeff Skaggs Concord-Greene FD
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
Another point is what service is the intended repeater to be used in? Ham? OK, play around and learn. If it's for the fire service where public safety is concerned, leave the repeaters to the pros. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - Everything you say below is correct. But I would still argue that it simply isn't worth it to do all the modifications you suggest to a scanner when you can pick up a good receiver from a Motrac/Micor/MastrII/MastrPro for $25 at a hamfest or ebay and have a receiver that is still better than the modified scanner. -- Original Message -- I posted the following reply to the group on Aug. 13th and it doesn't appear on the group (although Jeff received my email direct). Here it is again to the group... Re: Re: Scanner as repeater receiver? Hi Jeff, There are some conditions where a scanner receiver could be modified for use in repeater and base station applications. SNIP
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
Very true John, but the question was asked about if it could be done. Yes it can and I have done it... with mixed results depending on the specific scanner I used. Many of the better late model crystal scanners used the popular Motorola MC-3357 and MC-3359 chips, which are the same as the back end sections of many commercial and amateur receivers. There is wholesale dumping of used communications gear at Ham - Electronics Flea Markets and of course Ebay. So any of the alternatives you mention below are very good options. I really like and still use the famous Master Pro receivers... because they are one he11 of a performance machine and I've had guys stick them in the trunk of my car for free at the flea markets after I paid maybe $5 for one entire Master Pro Mobile Transceiver. I'd probably be using Master Pro EP-38 repeaters if I wasn't paying the electric bill. cheers, skipp JOHN MACKEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skipp- Everything you say below is correct. But I would still argue that it simply isn't worth it to do all the modifications you suggest to a scanner when you can pick up a good receiver from a Motrac/Micor/MastrII/MastrPro for $25 at a hamfest or ebay and have a receiver that is still better than the modified scanner.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
Chuck Kelsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another point is what service is the intended repeater to be used in? Ham? OK, play around and learn. That's kind of what this group is all about... fun and excitement. If it's for the fire service where public safety is concerned, leave the repeaters to the pros. Pros sometime scare me more than the hams do. Especially when they are in the Empire Builder Mode... even worse when they have their eye on spending lots of public money doing said. s.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?OT OT OT
OT - I just had to try and write in one little issue that any one attempting to use a scanner as a receiver should be aware of - I am not going to use any names or calls and if asked I will just say I was lying - A friend of mine worked for a very large FM broadcast station - there link receiver (an expensive little unit ) died for what reason I don't remember, and another friend and mutual acquaintance had a Rad Shak 2006 modded?? I think that is right that would receive 800 mhz and all sorts of wild places - So with a slight amount of ingenuity and in no time flat they had 1000+ foot stick re lit and broadcasting again, all but the stereo wasn't there on your stereo receiver. Whether they got a new link receiver or fixed the old one I don't remember but, the two are coming back to the main studio from the remote site, happy with there temporary fix, and I ask them What is going to happen to it when the power blinks for a split second? It is going to start scanning and you are going to be rebroadcasting all the sheriffs, cell, commercial, just whoever was in that multi channel receiver - at 1000+ feet with a 25,000 watt transmitter into a 6 db I think antenna with 3.5 inch heliax - They made a very hasty U-turn and beat it back to the station. Reprogrammed all of the receive frequencies the same and it worked quite well for a couple of weeks until the regular receiver was fixed - Just thought I should mention another of the possibles involved - Thanks for the indulgence - NØATH / Dave - Original Message - From: skipp025 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver? I posted the following reply to the group on Aug. 13th and it doesn't appear on the group (although Jeff received my email direct). Here it is again to the group... Re: Re: Scanner as repeater receiver? Hi Jeff, There are some conditions where a scanner receiver could be modified for use in repeater and base station applications. First you can throw away the label/word quality... it's all about the actual circuit design and construction of the scanner in question. Scanners as a general rule are very, very, very wide frequency range receivers with very modest/light/non existent front-end protection, which often leads to other problems you don't normally run into with true communications grade receivers. Some scanners have pretty much the exact same back-end circuit design (with minor differences) as kit communications receivers made and sold for repeater operation. Let me try to quickly talk about one common example. Some older crystal controlled scanners make semi fair repeater receiver candidates with the following considerations: 1. The receiver front-end (pre-selection) should be improved. In most cases the receiver front-end is not usable as-is/found. There are also cases where the antenna input jack is not a true 50 ohm antenna port. The more practical fix is improve the receiver front end protect with an additional filter or seriously modify any usable original circuit. High-Q Helical front-end circuits are/were made and sold, which do work for the cause. I used to like and use the HRA units sold by Hamtronics, but they no longer offer that exact product. Still the HRA Preamp Pre-selector Manual is available on the Hamtronics web-site if you want to see an example. 2. The receiver IF Filter might be wider than the best value for your application. If the scanner IF filter (often referred to as the Crystal Filter but not always a crystal type device) is really a generic/default wide value chosen for typical consumer grade scanner operation. You/I/we can often replace the stock IF Filter with much improved after-market IF Filter products sold by Comm-Spec and other sources. 3. The Squelch circuit might not be the best operational situation for your application. Scanner receivers more often than not have a very mushy consumer grade squelch circuit, which is sometimes easily modified with a common parts value changes. Since many scanners and some communications receivers have similar trailing circuits... it's not hard to find a very similar squelch circuit layout to copy into your application. 4. You would need to tap into the receiver to obtain audio sources and usable COS/COR logic levels. Not hard and that information is available as mentioned just above. The IF and Audio Sections of a receiver are fairly easy to deal with when you have a circuit diagram in hand and the resources of this group available to help you. 5. Some synthesized (programmable) Scanners might not have a stable enough VCO operation for use as a serious receiver. You could often hear hum, warble, noise and Selection D (all the above) in the recovered audio. Once again since many scanners and some communications receivers have similar circuits, it's not super hard to find a comparable VCO layout/circuit to help
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
A sensitive receiver is usually a terrible repeater receiver. Scanners do not have good filtering and adjacent channel rejection. Don't do it! --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, jstechnicalservice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone used a good quality scanner as a receiver for a repeater and if so, how well did it work? I'm contemplating a Radio Shack PRO-2055 as it seems to have good receive capability and picks up signal better than some of our mobile radios. Jeff Skaggs Concord-Greene FD
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Scanner as repeater receiver?
All it would be is made over crap. He should go get a cheap Micor or Master II for a receiver. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jstechnicalservice wrote: Has anyone used a good quality scanner as a receiver for a repeater and if so, how well did it work? I'm contemplating a Radio Shack PRO-2055 as it seems to have good receive capability and picks up signal better than some of our mobile radios. Jeff Skaggs Concord-Greene FD This is kinda like asking if someone's ever put the 3 cylinder engine from a Geo Metro into a 70's era Chevy Nova. Yeah, there's always someone who's done it, but it ate their time and their wallet and performed poorly when they got done. Too many better (even inexpensive) options available that were designed for the job to mess with it. Nate WY0X
