RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, Jacob Suter wrote: It matters a lot when you're looking to purchase an antenna. All UHF/VHF antennas are a compromise. Get what you need or get both and run multiple feed-lines or an RF switch. To some end. Then you get serious and purchase a pair of crossed log-periodics and a hybrid coupler to cover the span. But on TV, it's all horizontal or circular/elliptical polarization, so you can eliminate one of the antennas and the hybrid coupler. And if you want omnidirectional coverage, you build a large metal box, and place one log-periodic array on each face, and then phase those together using a series of hybrid couplers. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
The callsign is extremely relevant, which is why I am asking. But you seem more inclined to argue and reject those trying to help. -- Original Message -- Received: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:40:23 PM PDT From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work JOHN MACKEY wrote: I agree, this should not be difficult. But for some reason, it is and the poster is unable to answer simple questions. Instead, he responds with READ IT AGAIN! That is why I asked the callsign of the station we are talking about, to look at exactly what they are doing since the poster is unable to answer those questions. AGAIN-THE CALL SIGN IS IRRELEVANT! CH 7 IS 174-180 MHz-ALWAYS!
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: wd8...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:46:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work JOHN MACKEY wrote: Unfortunately, this problem was caused mostly by 1 person who simply doesn't understand. When we attempted to ask questions and explain it to him, his response to us was READ IT AGAIN!!! And I'll tell you again-READ IT AGAIN! A pointless exercise and response . _ Find out what’s new with your friends Download the new Windows Live Messenger http://download.live.com/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Barry wrote: Unfortunately, this problem was caused mostly by 1 person who simply doesn't understand. When we attempted to ask questions and explain it to him, his response to us was READ IT AGAIN!!! And I'll tell you again-READ IT AGAIN! A pointless exercise and response . HITLER HITLER HITLER. There, now this thread is over. Moderators, arise! Declare it dead like the third reich! -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
It's not a matter of what you said - it's a matter of what others read! Some people think their Analog channel 7 is on Digital channel 7 as well - just a different frequency. In reality, in the same market the Analog Channel 7 is on a completely different channel even though they still call themselves Channel 7. Joe M. wd8chl wrote: MCH wrote: Well, it matters to those of us who are playing in the RF pool. This whole argument started because of an issue with a Channel 7 transmitter and some people saying if it's called Channel 7 and it's DTV it may not be on RF Channel 7 (174-180 MHz). I think the original poster was trying to compare an analog signal to a digital signal both being on RF channel 7. Joe M. duh-exactly! why would I say anything else? Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
It's not irrelevant when you want people to know that their DTV channel X may not be ON channel X anymore. People need to understand what virtual channels are. For example: Why is my local channel 43 interfering with my 6M repeater now? Well, if you don't know about virtual channels, then you're really going to have a tough time with that issue. BUT, if you learn that the RF channel used may not be the same as the virtual channel number, and you learn that the DTV channel 43 TX may actually be on RF Channel 2, the issue becomes much more clear. Why would anyone want to promote ignorance? (other than the government) BTW, needs fixed = needs to be fixed the same as needs said = needs to be said. The words to be are irrelevant aside from making the post longer. (or is that making the post 'to be' longer...) Joe M. wd8chl wrote: MCH wrote: You know, I just though of another example that needs 'fixed'. Do you mean that it 'needs to be fixed'? |cP My local Channel 2 is on RF channel 2 on the cable system (a mistake, I'm sure). 4 is on 3, 11 is on 12, 53 is on 7, 22 is on 10, and 13 is on 9. If people can understand that the channel name isn't always the channel number on the cable systems, why can't they understand the same will now be true for DTV where 2 is on 25, 4 is on 51 and 11 is on 48??? It seems that the main source of the confusion is the alias that shows 02-1 rather than 25-1. The very item designed to avoid confusion seems to be the cause. Maybe we should just make it easy and make them use their callsigns again so you can know WTAE is on OTA Channel 4 (STD), OTA Channel 51 (DTV), and 3 (STD) or 210 (DTV) on cable? BTW, KPBS is on OTA Channel 15 (STD) and Channel 30 (DTV). It may show 15-1 as an alias, but it's RF Channel 30 for the DTV signal. Joe M. Could y'all just forget about the stupid virtual channel garbage? It's totally irrelevant to the point! Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
MCH wrote: It's not a matter of what you said - it's a matter of what others read! Some people think their Analog channel 7 is on Digital channel 7 as well - just a different frequency. In reality, in the same market the Analog Channel 7 is on a completely different channel even though they still call themselves Channel 7. Joe M. The topic was antennas, BTW. A ch 7 antenna will work on a ch 7 station, whether it's digitally modulated or analog modulated. And if there is a difference, as has been the experience of most people around here, the problem is the modulation technique. jeez, I don't know how many times I have to say the same thing wd8chl wrote: MCH wrote: Well, it matters to those of us who are playing in the RF pool. This whole argument started because of an issue with a Channel 7 transmitter and some people saying if it's called Channel 7 and it's DTV it may not be on RF Channel 7 (174-180 MHz). I think the original poster was trying to compare an analog signal to a digital signal both being on RF channel 7. Joe M. duh-exactly! why would I say anything else?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
MCH wrote: It's not irrelevant when you want people to know that their DTV channel X may not be ON channel X anymore. People need to understand what virtual channels are. For example: Why is my local channel 43 interfering with my 6M repeater now? Well, if you don't know about virtual channels, then you're really going to have a tough time with that issue. BUT, if you learn that the RF channel used may not be the same as the virtual channel number, and you learn that the DTV channel 43 TX may actually be on RF Channel 2, the issue becomes much more clear. Why would anyone want to promote ignorance? (other than the government) again, the topic is antennas. don't give a flying *** about virtual channels for this. BTW, needs fixed = needs to be fixed the same as needs said = needs to be said. The words to be are irrelevant aside from making the post longer. (or is that making the post 'to be' longer...) Joe M. Except for the fact that it's proper grammar, and really sounds uneducated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
John He does this because it's what he does best Bruce K7IJ In a message dated 3/18/2009 11:41:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jmac...@usa.net writes: The callsign is extremely relevant, which is why I am asking. But you seem more inclined to argue and reject those trying to help. -- Original Message -- Received: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:40:23 PM PDT From: wd8chl _wd8...@gmail.wd8_ (mailto:wd8...@gmail.com) To: _repeater-buil...@repeater-buirep_ (mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com) Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work **Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood0001)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
JOHN MACKEY wrote: Specifically, channel 7 in what city? Or tell us the callsign? me screams in frustration -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
JOHN MACKEY wrote: What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? me screams in frustration -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
JOHN MACKEY wrote: It would be nice to know the callsign of the channel 7 we are talking about. not relevant
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
MCH wrote: You know, I just though of another example that needs 'fixed'. Do you mean that it 'needs to be fixed'? |cP My local Channel 2 is on RF channel 2 on the cable system (a mistake, I'm sure). 4 is on 3, 11 is on 12, 53 is on 7, 22 is on 10, and 13 is on 9. If people can understand that the channel name isn't always the channel number on the cable systems, why can't they understand the same will now be true for DTV where 2 is on 25, 4 is on 51 and 11 is on 48??? It seems that the main source of the confusion is the alias that shows 02-1 rather than 25-1. The very item designed to avoid confusion seems to be the cause. Maybe we should just make it easy and make them use their callsigns again so you can know WTAE is on OTA Channel 4 (STD), OTA Channel 51 (DTV), and 3 (STD) or 210 (DTV) on cable? BTW, KPBS is on OTA Channel 15 (STD) and Channel 30 (DTV). It may show 15-1 as an alias, but it's RF Channel 30 for the DTV signal. Joe M. Could y'all just forget about the stupid virtual channel garbage? It's totally irrelevant to the point!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
MCH wrote: Well, it matters to those of us who are playing in the RF pool. This whole argument started because of an issue with a Channel 7 transmitter and some people saying if it's called Channel 7 and it's DTV it may not be on RF Channel 7 (174-180 MHz). I think the original poster was trying to compare an analog signal to a digital signal both being on RF channel 7. Joe M. duh-exactly! why would I say anything else?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
JOHN MACKEY wrote: Unfortunately, this problem was caused mostly by 1 person who simply doesn't understand. When we attempted to ask questions and explain it to him, his response to us was READ IT AGAIN!!! And I'll tell you again-READ IT AGAIN!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
JOHN MACKEY wrote: I agree, this should not be difficult. But for some reason, it is and the poster is unable to answer simple questions. Instead, he responds with READ IT AGAIN! That is why I asked the callsign of the station we are talking about, to look at exactly what they are doing since the poster is unable to answer those questions. AGAIN-THE CALL SIGN IS IRRELEVANT! CH 7 IS 174-180 MHz-ALWAYS!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
In my opinion, a large part of the DTV problem is the fact that so many TV stations are changing the RF channel for their broadcast. Many are changing tower locations and antenna elevations as well. These stations decided to keep this information essentially to themselves. Their feeling was that the new tuners will find them - after all it's all automatic. And the coverage prediction maps made them feel good because most of the time the contours were very similar. Big mistake on their part. However, we hams all know that different bands (VHF vs. UHF) propigate differently, especially when there are hills. Today's general public doesn't typically understand much of this, nor do many of them care - until their favorite channel goes away. Then there's the problem of digital's all or nothing reception. As we all know, with analog, the picture can get fairly bad, but the viewer can still watch it. With digital, a little bit of noise (maybe a snowmobile going by) and the signal just goes away. And it doesn't take a whole lot to experience drop outs. My wife sees every one of those pixilations, freezes and audio drops outs and proclaims I hate this new TV. Give her an analog picture and she'd be happy watching snow. Go figure. From what I've read, much of Europe utilizes a different DTV format than North America, and it sounds like it works better. That figures, doesn't it? Those are my observations anyway. When it works, it's great. When it doesn't, you're probably going to pay for a dish or cable. I've been watching DVT for almost two years now. I'm disappointed to see all the problems and confusion, but I'm not at all surprised. Chuck
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
You realize that Ch 7 digital may be on Ch 39 analog's frequency even though it comes in as CH 7 Digital. wd8chl wrote: Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Specifically, channel 7 in what city? Or tell us the callsign? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
It would be nice to know the callsign of the channel 7 we are talking about. -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 11:09:28 AM PST From: Tom Parker t...@ntin.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work You realize that Ch 7 digital may be on Ch 39 analog's frequency even though it comes in as CH 7 Digital. wd8chl wrote: Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: wd8...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:17:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. the problem is your fingers in your ears.. lalala does not move the resonant frequency of the antenna no matter what it's called.. _ Find out what’s new with your friends Download the new Windows Live Messenger http://download.live.com/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
It was hypothetical. The whole debate started because someone said if their receive antenna worked fine on channel 7 analog, it would work just as well on channel 7 digital. No RF channel change, no TX antenna change, no change other than going from analog to digital. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
I agree, this should not be difficult. But for some reason, it is and the poster is unable to answer simple questions. Instead, he responds with READ IT AGAIN! That is why I asked the callsign of the station we are talking about, to look at exactly what they are doing since the poster is unable to answer those questions. -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 04:35:35 PM PST From: Ken Decker wa6...@cox.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
You know, I was doubting the arguments posed by the government, but I'm starting to think they were right. It's just too much for the consumer to grasp DTV as it currently sits. I mean, if a *technical* bunch like this can't understand how a channel 2 station can be on RF channel 25, what hope is there for the consumer? Maybe it should be postponed indefinitely until the stations all get their original channels back or they simply change they logo from Channel 2 to Channel 25 and forget this alias XX-Y channel format. Joe M. Ken Decker wrote: Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - *From:* JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com mailto:wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmackey%40usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.8 - Release Date: 3/4/2009 12:00 AM
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
You know, I just though of another example that needs 'fixed'. My local Channel 2 is on RF channel 2 on the cable system (a mistake, I'm sure). 4 is on 3, 11 is on 12, 53 is on 7, 22 is on 10, and 13 is on 9. If people can understand that the channel name isn't always the channel number on the cable systems, why can't they understand the same will now be true for DTV where 2 is on 25, 4 is on 51 and 11 is on 48??? It seems that the main source of the confusion is the alias that shows 02-1 rather than 25-1. The very item designed to avoid confusion seems to be the cause. Maybe we should just make it easy and make them use their callsigns again so you can know WTAE is on OTA Channel 4 (STD), OTA Channel 51 (DTV), and 3 (STD) or 210 (DTV) on cable? BTW, KPBS is on OTA Channel 15 (STD) and Channel 30 (DTV). It may show 15-1 as an alias, but it's RF Channel 30 for the DTV signal. Joe M. MCH wrote: You know, I was doubting the arguments posed by the government, but I'm starting to think they were right. It's just too much for the consumer to grasp DTV as it currently sits. I mean, if a *technical* bunch like this can't understand how a channel 2 station can be on RF channel 25, what hope is there for the consumer? Maybe it should be postponed indefinitely until the stations all get their original channels back or they simply change they logo from Channel 2 to Channel 25 and forget this alias XX-Y channel format. Joe M. Ken Decker wrote: Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - *From:* JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com mailto:wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmackey%40usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.8 - Release Date: 3/4/2009 12:00 AM Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
It really does not matter what channel they are on as the tv's or converter boxes scan for all possible channels when you install them. plug and play. tom [Original Message] From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/6/2009 10:33:52 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work You know, I was doubting the arguments posed by the government, but I'm starting to think they were right. It's just too much for the consumer to grasp DTV as it currently sits. I mean, if a *technical* bunch like this can't understand how a channel 2 station can be on RF channel 25, what hope is there for the consumer? Maybe it should be postponed indefinitely until the stations all get their original channels back or they simply change they logo from Channel 2 to Channel 25 and forget this alias XX-Y channel format. Joe M. Ken Decker wrote: Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - *From:* JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com mailto:wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmackey%40usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.8 - Release Date: 3/4/2009 12:00 AM Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Well, it matters to those of us who are playing in the RF pool. This whole argument started because of an issue with a Channel 7 transmitter and some people saying if it's called Channel 7 and it's DTV it may not be on RF Channel 7 (174-180 MHz). I think the original poster was trying to compare an analog signal to a digital signal both being on RF channel 7. Joe M. Thomas Oliver wrote: It really does not matter what channel they are on as the tv's or converter boxes scan for all possible channels when you install them. plug and play. tom [Original Message] From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/6/2009 10:33:52 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work You know, I was doubting the arguments posed by the government, but I'm starting to think they were right. It's just too much for the consumer to grasp DTV as it currently sits. I mean, if a *technical* bunch like this can't understand how a channel 2 station can be on RF channel 25, what hope is there for the consumer? Maybe it should be postponed indefinitely until the stations all get their original channels back or they simply change they logo from Channel 2 to Channel 25 and forget this alias XX-Y channel format. Joe M. Ken Decker wrote: Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - *From:* JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com mailto:wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmackey%40usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.8 - Release Date: 3/4/2009 12:00 AM Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
It matters a lot when you're looking to purchase an antenna. All UHF/VHF antennas are a compromise. Get what you need or get both and run multiple feed-lines or an RF switch. JS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Oliver Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:51 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work It really does not matter what channel they are on as the tv's or converter boxes scan for all possible channels when you install them. plug and play. tom [Original Message] From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/6/2009 10:33:52 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work You know, I was doubting the arguments posed by the government, but I'm starting to think they were right. It's just too much for the consumer to grasp DTV as it currently sits. I mean, if a *technical* bunch like this can't understand how a channel 2 station can be on RF channel 25, what hope is there for the consumer? Maybe it should be postponed indefinitely until the stations all get their original channels back or they simply change they logo from Channel 2 to Channel 25 and forget this alias XX-Y channel format. Joe M. Ken Decker wrote: Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - *From:* JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com mailto:wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmackey%40usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.8 - Release Date: 3/4/2009 12:00 AM Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Want to get more confused? And more OT? HD radio (does NOT mean High Definition). I think it's Hybrid Digital. They have channels with -1 -2 which essentially is the digital sidebands that can contain different programming. HD radio is causing all kinds of interference problems, especially with night time DX. They would have been better off going to DRM. Of course that would not be compatible with existing AM. If we ever get the 76-88 MHz range for broadcast, DRM would work well there. Ken - Original Message - From: MCH To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 19:48 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work You know, I just though of another example that needs 'fixed'. My local Channel 2 is on RF channel 2 on the cable system (a mistake, I'm sure). 4 is on 3, 11 is on 12, 53 is on 7, 22 is on 10, and 13 is on 9. If people can understand that the channel name isn't always the channel number on the cable systems, why can't they understand the same will now be true for DTV where 2 is on 25, 4 is on 51 and 11 is on 48??? It seems that the main source of the confusion is the alias that shows 02-1 rather than 25-1. The very item designed to avoid confusion seems to be the cause. Maybe we should just make it easy and make them use their callsigns again so you can know WTAE is on OTA Channel 4 (STD), OTA Channel 51 (DTV), and 3 (STD) or 210 (DTV) on cable? BTW, KPBS is on OTA Channel 15 (STD) and Channel 30 (DTV). It may show 15-1 as an alias, but it's RF Channel 30 for the DTV signal. Joe M. MCH wrote: You know, I was doubting the arguments posed by the government, but I'm starting to think they were right. It's just too much for the consumer to grasp DTV as it currently sits. I mean, if a *technical* bunch like this can't understand how a channel 2 station can be on RF channel 25, what hope is there for the consumer? Maybe it should be postponed indefinitely until the stations all get their original channels back or they simply change they logo from Channel 2 to Channel 25 and forget this alias XX-Y channel format. Joe M. Ken Decker wrote: Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - *From:* JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com mailto:wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmackey%40usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
There are also HD-3 channels! There is some talk about trying to take TV channel 6 and making it into a Digital radio broadcasting band after analog TV fully vacates. But that will be difficult because there will be a few places in the country where broadcasters will be using TV channel 6 for digital broadcasting. note- I am NOT talking about virtual channel 6, I am talking about 82-88 MHz TV channel 6!! -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 09:17:44 PM PST From: Ken Decker wa6...@cox.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Want to get more confused? And more OT? HD radio (does NOT mean High Definition). I think it's Hybrid Digital. They have channels with -1 -2 which essentially is the digital sidebands that can contain different programming. HD radio is causing all kinds of interference problems, especially with night time DX. They would have been better off going to DRM. Of course that would not be compatible with existing AM. If we ever get the 76-88 MHz range for broadcast, DRM would work well there. Ken - Original Message - From: MCH To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 19:48 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work You know, I just though of another example that needs 'fixed'. My local Channel 2 is on RF channel 2 on the cable system (a mistake, I'm sure). 4 is on 3, 11 is on 12, 53 is on 7, 22 is on 10, and 13 is on 9. If people can understand that the channel name isn't always the channel number on the cable systems, why can't they understand the same will now be true for DTV where 2 is on 25, 4 is on 51 and 11 is on 48??? It seems that the main source of the confusion is the alias that shows 02-1 rather than 25-1. The very item designed to avoid confusion seems to be the cause. Maybe we should just make it easy and make them use their callsigns again so you can know WTAE is on OTA Channel 4 (STD), OTA Channel 51 (DTV), and 3 (STD) or 210 (DTV) on cable? BTW, KPBS is on OTA Channel 15 (STD) and Channel 30 (DTV). It may show 15-1 as an alias, but it's RF Channel 30 for the DTV signal. Joe M. MCH wrote: You know, I was doubting the arguments posed by the government, but I'm starting to think they were right. It's just too much for the consumer to grasp DTV as it currently sits. I mean, if a *technical* bunch like this can't understand how a channel 2 station can be on RF channel 25, what hope is there for the consumer? Maybe it should be postponed indefinitely until the stations all get their original channels back or they simply change they logo from Channel 2 to Channel 25 and forget this alias XX-Y channel format. Joe M. Ken Decker wrote: Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - *From:* JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com mailto:wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmackey%40usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Unfortunately, this problem was caused mostly by 1 person who simply doesn't understand. When we attempted to ask questions and explain it to him, his response to us was READ IT AGAIN!!! Several of us work professionally in the field of Broadcast Engineering, including myself. -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 07:33:53 PM PST From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work You know, I was doubting the arguments posed by the government, but I'm starting to think they were right. It's just too much for the consumer to grasp DTV as it currently sits. I mean, if a *technical* bunch like this can't understand how a channel 2 station can be on RF channel 25, what hope is there for the consumer? Maybe it should be postponed indefinitely until the stations all get their original channels back or they simply change they logo from Channel 2 to Channel 25 and forget this alias XX-Y channel format. Joe M. Ken Decker wrote: Good grief folks, how difficult is this? Checkout the website site below. For example: in San Diego it shows KPBS as channel 15-1. Click on the call letters. It shows channel 15, the former analog channel and what it still is identified as.. Then it shows (RF 30), that's the channel it's on in the digital transition, but it identifies as Channel 15-1. The nice map also shows where the transmitter is located and a engineering SWAG as to the signal level to expect. The Digital TV Transition: DTV Reception Maps http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ Ken - Original Message - *From:* JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 12:41 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What is the callsign of the (ch. 7) station we are talking about? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:35:36 PM PST From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com mailto:wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work The same. - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net mailto:jmackey%40usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work What frequency was channel 7 digital and frequency channel 7 analog? -- Original Message -- Received: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:12:39 AM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Paul Plack wrote: Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. No, that's not what I said. I said that if an antenna works on CH7 analog, it should work on CH7 digital, and if it doesn't, the problem is the source. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.8 - Release Date: 3/4/2009 12:00 AM
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Joe wrote: It's more confusing than that. In the HDTV world there is RF channel 7 and Virtual channel 7. They may or (probably) may not be the same frequency. Joe read it again!!! wd8chl wrote: Channel 7 is Channel 7. What it shows on the screen is meaningless.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
JOHN MACKEY wrote: Digital Channel 7 may NOT be the same as Analog Channel 7. It is the frequency they are using that can be different. READ IT AGAIN -- Original Message -- In a message dated 2/23/2009 5:08:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wd8...@gmail.com writes: I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Jacob Suter wrote: Is this the reason for the move to UHF? Back when I lived in the city I never really saw much/any 'ghosting' on UHF stations, but horrible ghosting on some VHF (all the transmitters were within a couple miles of each other, so it wasn't an issue of transmitter/receiver site). Seems like if the signal is significantly more Fresnel sensitive, UHF would be a logical choice. I still don't understand the 'upgrade' for terrestrial HD. What should have happened was a push to satellite. There's plenty of spectrum and space in the Clark belt, and its easier to get a solid signal waving around a 18 Directv dish than it is to try to 'dx' in some HDTV in most circumstances (most RVers and truckers I know can peak-aim a single feed directv/dishnet dish in under 2 minutes) JS 1)There isn't as much bandwidth as you think. 2)You lose local content. Locally originated programming is very important, and frequently more interesting. And frankly, I don't watch CNN, etc, or even the network national news. Boring as hell. I only watch the local news.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Jim, You might want to READ IT AGAIN yourself. Here's where the misunderstanding started. John wrote that if the digital is on a very different frequency, reception may be different. Your response was that if your antenna worked on one, it should work on the other, Period. You appeared to have a misunderstanding. Don't get mad at people who try to help. That's kinda why this place exists. Quoted below for your convenience. Perhaps now we can all move on. 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: wd8chl To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work JOHN MACKEY wrote: If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
At 2/23/2009 15:28, you wrote: All of this talk about DTV is irrelvent..because TV IS ONLY A FAD and IT WILL NEVER LAST ! Or at least that's what they said when it came about ...way back then. Back when? 20's or 40's? Big difference between the two, as the 20's/early 30's was the era of mechanical TV, which did in fact turn out to be a short=lived fad. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
One of the biggest problems that is that the current DTV TRANSITION channelization can easily have a VHF analog broadcasting the DTV digital on a UHF channel. POST-TRANSITION the DTV digital could either end up back on the existing VHF channel or on the current UHF transition channel or a new VHF orUHF channel...BUT from the USER point of view the channel number will not change! Thus a channel 4 analog might be broadcasting digital on channel 45 pre-transition and end up on channel 20 post transition; but the channel you would enter on the TV will still be channel 4-1, 4-2, etc. Talk about confusion! It will take at least a generation to straighten this mess out IF over the air television survives. Milt N3LTQ - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. -- Original Message -- Received: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:14:14 PM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work That's the gripe. If I put up an antenna that works fine for analog, there is no excuse for it NOT to work with digital, except that digital must be crap. Rf is RF. Virtually everybody I have talked to has had nothing but problems with DTV. Invariably they get fewer channels, and stations that are good to excellent in analog can frequently be unwatchable in digital. To see a digital as reliably as an analog is the exception, not the rule. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Some parts of the world use a different format for their digital. The one in the US tends to be very unforgiving of multipath. Chuck - Original Message - So you suggest the physics in your part of the world differs from over here? as so far digital in my country has been successful with large distances also between set and tx . What is your explanation for such a thing
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Just going to UHF is a lot of the problem. Propagation is different, especially in hilly areas like where I live. People near me have the correct equipment, but it just plain won't pull in the new DTV channels as well. Part of this can be attributed to any station that may not yet be at full power with their DTV signal. Chuck - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Also transmitter power on Digital seems to be 10db less or more. An engineer here indicates many HDTV transmitters are 1500w output...plus antenna system.. ERP is a lot less in most cases.. Said engineer indicated the industry may be going to push for 6kw nozzle power after all is up and running and they can sort out what is what... This is all from unofficial armchair conversations and may vary by locale Doug At 02:51 AM 2/23/2009, you wrote: If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. -- Original Message -- Received: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:14:14 PM PST From: wd8chl mailto:wd8chl%40gmail.comwd8...@gmail.com To: mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work That's the gripe. If I put up an antenna that works fine for analog, there is no excuse for it NOT to work with digital, except that digital must be crap. Rf is RF. Virtually everybody I have talked to has had nothing but problems with DTV. Invariably they get fewer channels, and stations that are good to excellent in analog can frequently be unwatchable in digital. To see a digital as reliably as an analog is the exception, not the rule.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
JOHN MACKEY wrote: If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Only if they are on RF channel 7 after the switch. Some stations wanted to keep their identity, such as Channel 2, New York City. When they switch to HDTV they may call themselves Channel 2-1 but their RF frequency may be 33 or something else. Their Virtual Channel will be 2-1, but the RF channel will be 33-1. For example, your channel 5 WEWS analog will be going to RF channel 15. They will continue to use the Virtual Channel number 5-1 for identification. Look at: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ and plug in your Zip Code. Can the FCC make this just a little more confusing? 73, Joe, K1ike wd8chl wrote: I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Joe wrote: Only if they are on RF channel 7 after the switch. Channel 7 is Channel 7. What it shows on the screen is meaningless. wd8chl wrote: I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Dynamic multipath interference, in which the delay and magnitude of reflections are rapidly changing, is particularly problematic for digital reception. While this just produces moving and changing ghost images for analog TV, it can render a digital signal impossible to decode. The 8VSB-based standards in use in North American ATSC broadcasts are particularly vulnerable to problems from dynamic multipath; this has the potential to severely limit mobile or portable use of digital television receivers. Solving the problem might require that different standards be adopted for mobile use. Chuck - Original Message - From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work JOHN MACKEY wrote: If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
There's a ton more reading on the subject. Here's a starting point where you'll see the different standards for digital broadcast worldwide. Bottom line, if you have a STRONG digital signal, you'll be OK. Anything less, then all bets are off. That's not to say it won't work, it just becomes unpredictable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_terrestrial_television Chuck - Original Message - From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Dynamic multipath interference, in which the delay and magnitude of reflections are rapidly changing, is particularly problematic for digital reception. While this just produces moving and changing ghost images for analog TV, it can render a digital signal impossible to decode. The 8VSB-based standards in use in North American ATSC broadcasts are particularly vulnerable to problems from dynamic multipath; this has the potential to severely limit mobile or portable use of digital television receivers. Solving the problem might require that different standards be adopted for mobile use. Chuck
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
At 21:19 2/22/2009, wd8chl wrote: Virtually everybody I have talked to has had nothing but problems with DTV. Invariably they get fewer channels, and stations that are good to excellent in analog can frequently be unwatchable in digital. To see a digital as reliably as an analog is the exception, not the rule. Now to be fair, it must be said I have very strong signals. But I get better results by far from digital than analog. With a new set I didn't really have time to put an antenna on, I got 15 stations with a paper clip. Never could have done that on analog -- Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html -
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
At 07:46 2/23/2009, Chuck Kelsey wrote: if you have a STRONG digital signal, you'll be OK. Anything less, then all bets are off. That's not to say it won't work, it just becomes unpredictable. Which shows again something that has been true all along, as hams well know: Spend your $$$ on the antenna.For UHF you are much better off if you are line of sight to the transmitter. If not, consider cable or a dish. -- Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html -
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
At 07:46 2/23/2009, Chuck Kelsey wrote: if you have a STRONG digital signal, you'll be OK. Anything less, then all bets are off. That's not to say it won't work, it just becomes unpredictable. Which shows again something that has been true all along, as hams well know: Spend your $$$ on the antenna.For UHF you are much better off if you are line of sight to the transmitter. If not, consider cable or a dish. -- Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html -
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
From: Dave Gomberg da...@wcf.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com; Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:53:02 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work At 07:46 2/23/2009, Chuck Kelsey wrote: if you have a STRONG digital signal, you'll be OK. Anything less, then all bets are off. That's not to say it won't work, it just becomes unpredictable. Which shows again something that has been true all along, as hams well know: Spend your $$$ on the antenna.For UHF you are much better off if you are line of sight to the transmitter. If not, consider cable or a dish. -- Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf. com/ham/info. html - - - - - -
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
There's the rub. People had TV that they could watch, that now goes away, forcing them to pay for cable or dish. Chuck - Original Message - Which shows again something that has been true all along, as hams well know: Spend your $$$ on the antenna.For UHF you are much better off if you are line of sight to the transmitter. If not, consider cable or a dish.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Huh? Maybe you're saying this, but out local CH 2 is DTV CH 25, but after the CH 25 signal is found, it is entered as CH 2 again even though the RF is on CH 25. I agree with CHL - two signals on CH 7 (or any channel) should have the same coverage from the same antenna either analog or digital. Joe M. wd8chl wrote: Joe wrote: Only if they are on RF channel 7 after the switch. Channel 7 is Channel 7. What it shows on the screen is meaningless. wd8chl wrote: I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Guess you haven't talked to me. Mine's working great here. more channels on rabbit ears than ever. No, I'm not kidding. What this has got to do with REPEATERS I have no idea though. but I can make a guess or a suggestion that would put it back on-topic: Perhaps (just like in repeaters) buying the cheapest crappiest $40 hunk of junk receiver/converter box from god-knows-where-China, in a plastic non-shielded box, sitting on top of piles of home entertainment electronics, and feeding it with crappy feedline or shoddy connectors or old internal wiring that just isn't up to snuff, and the million other things that can affect reception of an RF signal -- isn't the way to go when attempting to receive DTV signals? The ironic thing is that my DTV receiver is in my DISH NETWORK box. Heh. I don't even really NEED it, but it's doing fine and adding a third source for the DVR from rabbit-ears. yup, plain old rabbit-ears, not amplified, not a good antenna for anything, let alone UHF. (The UHF portion is a circular loop. A spectacularly crap-tastic antenna performance-wise, as we all here know from our hobby.) I'm sure if I put an outside antenna on it with some gain, proper feedline, and a rotor to point it, it'd DX the Colorado Springs and Cheyenne WY transmitters, no problem at all. Rotor would just be for F/B ratio - might not even need it. point the thing at Cheyenne, and pick up COS off the back side. Consider the source when you're hearing that people are having trouble with DTV reception, and ask them if their converter box/receiver cost MORE than the free coupon. Free = you get what you pay for. just like everything else in RF - including repeaters. Someone else pointed out a couple of weeks ago that receiver sensitivity numbers and real-world tests are hard to come by on these things. There's manufacturer numbers, but who believes a manufacturer when they're talking about their own receivers? We're hams. we know how to make a receive antenna system work. but if the receiver is crud. Nate WY0X From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:28 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Virtually everybody I have talked to has had nothing but problems with DTV. Invariably they get fewer channels, and stations that are good to excellent in analog can frequently be unwatchable in digital.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
If it does take that long, then we're a country full of idiots, who probably need to watch less TV and read more books anyway. :-) Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Milt Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:02 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work It will take at least a generation to straighten this mess out IF over the air television survives. Milt N3LTQ
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
You realize that the channel displayed on the TV is a data element, and has nothing to do with the actual RF frequency the station is transmitting on in DTV, right? Example: Here in Denver, CBS is moving permanently off of Channel 4 VHF Low, to a Channel 30's range UHF frequency, and not going back down. A VHF antenna won't work (properly) for their signal anymore. During the transition, ABC and NBC are also transmitting on UHF, but will switch back to their VHF High frequencies on cut-over day. The entire time, those stations will still be channels 4, 7 and 9 on the DTV TV's... the TV scans and finds them on UHF, and they transmit that I'm channel 4, and the TV obliges and maps the USER channel 4 to the channel assignments for the lazy dude sitting on the couch with the remote control. But the DTV receiver is really receiving up in UHF spectrum. There's nothing wrong with the medium, but perhaps your understanding of how it works... Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wd8chl Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:11 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work JOHN MACKEY wrote: If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Ebooks right? =] Chris Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:54 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work If it does take that long, then we're a country full of idiots, who probably need to watch less TV and read more books anyway. :-) Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Milt Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:02 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work It will take at least a generation to straighten this mess out IF over the air television survives. Milt N3LTQ Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.2/1964 - Release Date: 02/23/09 07:17:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Your local analog channel 7, which has been using 174-180 MHz, sets up its digital transmitter on 33, but the screen still says 7-1. So what you're calling digital channel 7 is now 584-590 MHz. No change in antenna performance should be expected? How is that just a change in modulation type? I hope nobody goes to a lot of expense to optimize an antenna system for these interim channels. They'll be really disappointed If 7-1 goes back to the actual VHF channel 7 allocation after June 12th! 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: wd8chl To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Or a converter. Not too much different than what's being done to Land Mobile, eh? Joe M. Chuck Kelsey wrote: There's the rub. People had TV that they could watch, that now goes away, forcing them to pay for cable or dish. Chuck - Original Message - Which shows again something that has been true all along, as hams well know: Spend your $$$ on the antenna.For UHF you are much better off if you are line of sight to the transmitter. If not, consider cable or a dish. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Nate Duehr wrote: You realize that the channel displayed on the TV is a data element, and has nothing to do with the actual RF frequency the station is transmitting on in DTV, right? Paul Plack wrote: Your local analog channel 7, which has been using 174-180 MHz, sets up its digital transmitter on 33, but the screen still says 7-1. So what you're calling digital channel 7 is now 584-590 MHz. No change in antenna performance should be expected? How is that just a change in modulation type? I hope nobody goes to a lot of expense to optimize an antenna system for these interim channels. They'll be really disappointed If 7-1 goes back to the actual VHF channel 7 allocation after June 12th! 73, Paul, AE4KR dammit! read it again! I said channel 7 is channel 7! You are taking a channel 7 and moving it! the only concern is the channel-i don't give a what the screen says! geez guys this isn't that hard! - Original Message - From: wd8chl To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Reminds me of when the CB'ers in town ask me how many channels my ic-7000 has. Harsh =] Chris Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wd8chl Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:48 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Nate Duehr wrote: You realize that the channel displayed on the TV is a data element, and has nothing to do with the actual RF frequency the station is transmitting on in DTV, right? Paul Plack wrote: Your local analog channel 7, which has been using 174-180 MHz, sets up its digital transmitter on 33, but the screen still says 7-1. So what you're calling digital channel 7 is now 584-590 MHz. No change in antenna performance should be expected? How is that just a change in modulation type? I hope nobody goes to a lot of expense to optimize an antenna system for these interim channels. They'll be really disappointed If 7-1 goes back to the actual VHF channel 7 allocation after June 12th! 73, Paul, AE4KR dammit! read it again! I said channel 7 is channel 7! You are taking a channel 7 and moving it! the only concern is the channel-i don't give a what the screen says! geez guys this isn't that hard! - Original Message - From: wd8chl To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.2/1964 - Release Date: 02/23/09 07:17:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Don't get me going on digital, public safety two-way. Another nightmare. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Not too much different than what's being done to Land Mobile, eh? Joe M.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
This is to be expected from a country that managed to vote George W bush into power twice really. You'd have thought you'd have discovered UHF TV a long time ago, like back in the 70s, like we did in the UK. We have pretty much complete coverage (even in hilly areas) with UHF transmitters (and lots of repeaters). Anyway, From the quick skim I've had here, Here's what I've read: The TV channel named Channel 7 is/was on VHF channel 7. It's also now on UHF channel (30?) So it's not long ON channel 7, altough it's CALLED Channel 7. Simple! wd8chl wrote: Nate Duehr wrote: You realize that the channel displayed on the TV is a data element, and has nothing to do with the actual RF frequency the station is transmitting on in DTV, right? Paul Plack wrote: Your local analog channel 7, which has been using 174-180 MHz, sets up its digital transmitter on 33, but the screen still says 7-1. So what you're calling digital channel 7 is now 584-590 MHz. No change in antenna performance should be expected? How is that just a change in modulation type? I hope nobody goes to a lot of expense to optimize an antenna system for these interim channels. They'll be really disappointed If 7-1 goes back to the actual VHF channel 7 allocation after June 12th! 73, Paul, AE4KR dammit! read it again! I said channel 7 is channel 7! You are taking a channel 7 and moving it! the only concern is the channel-i don't give a what the screen says! geez guys this isn't that hard! - Original Message - From: wd8chl To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1966 - Release Date: 02/22/09 17:21:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Gordon You know something pal? Your rants from god knows where attacking our country, and our presidents and voters are not appreciated. With all our problems, and we admit we have plenty, the US still remains the best place on this planet to live. So zip it with the political commentary. Stick to repeater building. As has already been mentioned, this thread is WAY off topic and needs to be taken off list to where ever it may belong. Sorry Kevin if I ranted . Glenn -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon 'Yeti' Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:40 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work This is to be expected from a country that managed to vote George W bush into power twice really. You'd have thought you'd have discovered UHF TV a long time ago, like back in the 70s, like we did in the UK. We have pretty much complete coverage (even in hilly areas) with UHF transmitters (and lots of repeaters). Anyway, From the quick skim I've had here, Here's what I've read: The TV channel named Channel 7 is/was on VHF channel 7. It's also now on UHF channel (30?) So it's not long ON channel 7, altough it's CALLED Channel 7. Simple!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
It's more confusing than that. In the HDTV world there is RF channel 7 and Virtual channel 7. They may or (probably) may not be the same frequency. Joe wd8chl wrote: Channel 7 is Channel 7. What it shows on the screen is meaningless.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
DTV channel numbers are relatively meaningless, it's the frequency that counts. Chris N9LLO In a message dated 2/23/2009 5:08:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wd8...@gmail.com writes: JOHN MACKEY wrote: If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
You've got to keep in mind the population densities here - all spread out. If we were talking about trying to blanket only 94,000 square miles of land, like the size of the UK, we probably wouldn't have any coverage difficulties either. That's about the size of the state of Michigan. Chuck - Original Message - From: Gordon 'Yeti' colttu...@omne.uk.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work We have pretty much complete coverage (even in hilly areas) with UHF transmitters (and lots of repeaters).
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Each state is just like it's own country anyway - it's own laws, taxes, etc. Don't see why organising some radio transmitters seems like such a big deal - apart from that the US never made the jump to UHF, and buy the sounds of it, hasn't given itself proper preparation for Digital TV either. Don't see why someone who knows about radios should find it so difficult to understand that the channel number displayed isn't always the channel matching the frequency the transmission is actually on. Chuck Kelsey wrote: You've got to keep in mind the population densities here - all spread out. If we were talking about trying to blanket only 94,000 square miles of land, like the size of the UK, we probably wouldn't have any coverage difficulties either. That's about the size of the state of Michigan. Chuck - Original Message - From: Gordon 'Yeti' colttu...@omne.uk.net mailto:coltturbo%40omne.uk.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work We have pretty much complete coverage (even in hilly areas) with UHF transmitters (and lots of repeaters). No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1966 - Release Date: 02/22/09 17:21:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: n...@natetech.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:53:32 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work If it does take that long, then we're a country full of idiots, who probably need to watch less TV and read more books anyway. :-) Nate WY0X The scary thing is you are correct , I don't understand how hard some make it -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Milt Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:02 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work It will take at least a generation to straighten this mess out IF over the air television survives. Milt N3LTQ _ Get rid of those unwanted christmas presents! Get what you want at ebay. http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Frover%2Eebay%2Ecom%2Frover%2F1%2F705%2D10129%2D5668%2D323%2F4%3Fid%3D10_t=763807330_r=hotmailTAGLINES_m=EXT
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
All of this talk about DTV is irrelvent..because TV IS ONLY A FAD and IT WILL NEVER LAST ! Or at least that's what they said when it came about ...way back then. Just a little humor for the day . Ya'll have fun. Mike - Original Message - From: Barry To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:22 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work -- To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: n...@natetech.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:53:32 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work If it does take that long, then we're a country full of idiots, who probably need to watch less TV and read more books anyway. :-) Nate WY0X The scary thing is you are correct , I don't understand how hard some make it -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Milt Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:02 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work It will take at least a generation to straighten this mess out IF over the air television survives. Milt N3LTQ -- Get what you want at ebay. Get rid of those unwanted christmas presents!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
How many more times do we have to read the same post? In a message dated 2/23/2009 3:43:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, wd8...@gmail.com writes: JOHN MACKEY wrote: If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. **Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filingncid=emlcntusyelp0004)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Gordon 'Yeti' wrote: Each state is just like it's own country anyway - it's own laws, taxes, etc. Don't see why organising some radio transmitters seems like such a big deal What you are failing to recognize, is that coordination of adjacent states, channels, frequencies is a necessity otherwise, we'd have a hell of a mess. You don't see this in the UK, as it's about the same size as _one_ of our states, and you don't have any necessity of protecting against signals that go outside your Country with the exception of maybe the south-east. We have 48 contiguous states, and two others not physically joined coordinate with the federal government, so it isn't as easy as you might believe. Co-Channel has always been a big deal, and the problem has not gotten any better. In fact, it might have gotten worse. There aren't enough frequencies to ensure no interference to everyone. Kevin Custer List Owner
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Digital Channel 7 may NOT be the same as Analog Channel 7. It is the frequency they are using that can be different. -- Original Message -- In a message dated 2/23/2009 5:08:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wd8...@gmail.com writes: I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Answer: All of them :) In a message dated 2/23/2009 2:48:00 P.M. Central Standard Time, demo...@rollanet.org writes: Reminds me of when the CB'ers in town ask me how many channels my ic-7000 has. Harsh =] Chris Kb0wlf **Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filingncid=emlcntusyelp0004)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Also reminds me of when I was *DUMB STUPID* in my earlier years of CB (before I got my ham license), and I asked on air for a radio check! Heh heh, I became very smart after a reply came back to me: How much money can we send you? Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: radio5...@aol.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Answer: All of them :) In a message dated 2/23/2009 2:48:00 P.M. Central Standard Time, demo...@rollanet.org writes: Reminds me of when the CB'ers in town ask me how many channels my ic-7000 has. Harsh =] Chris Kb0wlf -- Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
At 09:47 2/23/2009, Chuck Kelsey wrote: There's the rub. People had TV that they could watch, that now goes away, forcing them to pay for cable or dish. Or move into civilization. It's all your own choice Or live without TV, lots of folks are opting for that. And at the prices they are charging, I am getting ready to live without pop music, but for each his own. Chuck - Original Message - Which shows again something that has been true all along, as hams well know: Spend your $$$ on the antenna.For UHF you are much better off if you are line of sight to the transmitter. If not, consider cable or a dish. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1968 - Release Date: 02/23/09 18:22:00 -- Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html -
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
I always answer, Mine's right here. :-) Nate WY0X From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Kupferschmidt Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Also reminds me of when I was *DUMB STUPID* in my earlier years of CB (before I got my ham license), and I asked on air for a radio check! Heh heh, I became very smart after a reply came back to me: How much money can we send you? Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: radio5...@aol.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Answer: All of them :) In a message dated 2/23/2009 2:48:00 P.M. Central Standard Time, demo...@rollanet.org writes: Reminds me of when the CB'ers in town ask me how many channels my ic-7000 has. Harsh =] Chris Kb0wlf _ Get a jump start on your taxes. Find http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filingn cid=emlcntusyelp0004 a tax professional in your neighborhood today.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
There was a problem in Florida with this. Channel 6 analog moved to UHF DTV and kept channel 6-1. the new channel 6 DTV apparently put themselves up as 6-1 (supposed to be a UHF channel number). Confused a lot of receivers for a while. Gerald Pelnar McPherson, Ks - Original Message - From: Joe k1ike_m...@snet.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Only if they are on RF channel 7 after the switch. Some stations wanted to keep their identity, such as Channel 2, New York City. When they switch to HDTV they may call themselves Channel 2-1 but their RF frequency may be 33 or something else. Their Virtual Channel will be 2-1, but the RF channel will be 33-1. For example, your channel 5 WEWS analog will be going to RF channel 15. They will continue to use the Virtual Channel number 5-1 for identification. Look at: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ and plug in your Zip Code. Can the FCC make this just a little more confusing? 73, Joe, K1ike wd8chl wrote: I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: Also reminds me of when I was *DUMB STUPID* in my earlier years of CB (before I got my ham license), and I asked on air for a radio check! We still hear those today: Am I making it in? -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
What channel are they actually on? Joe M. Gerald Pelnar wrote: There was a problem in Florida with this. Channel 6 analog moved to UHF DTV and kept channel 6-1. the new channel 6 DTV apparently put themselves up as 6-1 (supposed to be a UHF channel number). Confused a lot of receivers for a while. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Gerald Pelnar McPherson, Ks - Original Message - From: Joe k1ike_m...@snet.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Only if they are on RF channel 7 after the switch. Some stations wanted to keep their identity, such as Channel 2, New York City. When they switch to HDTV they may call themselves Channel 2-1 but their RF frequency may be 33 or something else. Their Virtual Channel will be 2-1, but the RF channel will be 33-1. For example, your channel 5 WEWS analog will be going to RF channel 15. They will continue to use the Virtual Channel number 5-1 for identification. Look at: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ and plug in your Zip Code. Can the FCC make this just a little more confusing? 73, Joe, K1ike wd8chl wrote: I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
the new station is on 6 but supposed to ID with a UHF channel number. What channel are they actually on? Joe M. Gerald Pelnar wrote: There was a problem in Florida with this. Channel 6 analog moved to UHF DTV and kept channel 6-1. the new channel 6 DTV apparently put themselves up as 6-1 (supposed to be a UHF channel number). Confused a lot of receivers for a while.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Is this the reason for the move to UHF? Back when I lived in the city I never really saw much/any 'ghosting' on UHF stations, but horrible ghosting on some VHF (all the transmitters were within a couple miles of each other, so it wasn't an issue of transmitter/receiver site). Seems like if the signal is significantly more Fresnel sensitive, UHF would be a logical choice. I still don't understand the 'upgrade' for terrestrial HD. What should have happened was a push to satellite. There's plenty of spectrum and space in the Clark belt, and its easier to get a solid signal waving around a 18 Directv dish than it is to try to 'dx' in some HDTV in most circumstances (most RVers and truckers I know can peak-aim a single feed directv/dishnet dish in under 2 minutes) JS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:38 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Dynamic multipath interference, in which the delay and magnitude of reflections are rapidly changing, is particularly problematic for digital reception. While this just produces moving and changing ghost images for analog TV, it can render a digital signal impossible to decode. The 8VSB-based standards in use in North American ATSC broadcasts are particularly vulnerable to problems from dynamic multipath; this has the potential to severely limit mobile or portable use of digital television receivers. Solving the problem might require that different standards be adopted for mobile use. Chuck - Original Message - From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work JOHN MACKEY wrote: If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. I should be able to use any normal TV antenna. If it works on analog Ch 7, for instance, it should work on digital ch 7. Period. If it doesn't, there is something inherently wrong with the medium. Again, RF is RF. The antenna doesn't care how it's modulated. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
I agree I have no idea what this has to do with repeaters, but with a good received you can receive a lot more. My parents live in this town called Middle-of-Nowhere, Michigan. Analog TV is horrible, few channels and all snow. DTV, using the digital receiver in the TV they get no less than 12 usable signals. Using a converter box seems to be an issue here, and since everyone seems to expect a $40 converter box to act like a $300 received, this seems to be the cause of the difference of opinion. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Nate Duehr n...@natetech.com wrote: Guess you haven't talked to me. Mine's working great here… more channels on rabbit ears than ever. No, I'm not kidding. What this has got to do with REPEATERS I have no idea though… but I can make a guess or a suggestion that would put it back on-topic: Perhaps (just like in repeaters) buying the cheapest crappiest $40 hunk of junk receiver/converter box from god-knows-where-China, in a plastic non-shielded box, sitting on top of piles of home entertainment electronics, and feeding it with crappy feedline or shoddy connectors or old internal wiring that just isn't up to snuff, and the million other things that can affect reception of an RF signal -- isn't the way to go when attempting to receive DTV signals? The ironic thing is that my DTV receiver is in my DISH NETWORK box. Heh. I don't even really NEED it, but it's doing fine and adding a third source for the DVR from rabbit-ears… yup, plain old rabbit-ears, not amplified, not a good antenna for anything, let alone UHF. (The UHF portion is a circular loop. A spectacularly crap-tastic antenna performance-wise, as we all here know from our hobby.) I'm sure if I put an outside antenna on it with some gain, proper feedline, and a rotor to point it, it'd DX the Colorado Springs and Cheyenne WY transmitters, no problem at all. Rotor would just be for F/B ratio – might not even need it… point the thing at Cheyenne, and pick up COS off the back side… Consider the source when you're hearing that people are having trouble with DTV reception, and ask them if their converter box/receiver cost MORE than the free coupon. Free = you get what you pay for… just like everything else in RF – including repeaters. Someone else pointed out a couple of weeks ago that receiver sensitivity numbers and real-world tests are hard to come by on these things. There's manufacturer numbers, but who believes a manufacturer when they're talking about their own receivers? We're hams… we know how to make a receive antenna system work… but if the receiver is crud… Nate WY0X *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto: repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Barry *Sent:* Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:28 PM *To:* repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Virtually everybody I have talked to has had nothing but problems with DTV. Invariably they get fewer channels, and stations that are good to excellent in analog can frequently be unwatchable in digital.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Jacob Suter wrote: Outlook needs a 'trigger lock' on the send button... Also, I have no idea why outlook decided to add a bunch of crap to my email. Guess I should be using a decent mail program! ;c} Yeah-Thunderbird is one of the best ways to go! edits below: C Most preamps I run into are at least 10 years old. Sure they might still work, but RF transistor technology has sure improved in the last few years. These amps are *not* going to pass DTV acceptably. That's the gripe. If I put up an antenna that works fine for analog, there is no excuse for it NOT to work with digital, except that digital must be crap. Rf is RF. Virtually everybody I have talked to has had nothing but problems with DTV. Invariably they get fewer channels, and stations that are good to excellent in analog can frequently be unwatchable in digital. To see a digital as reliably as an analog is the exception, not the rule.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: wd8...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:19:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work Jacob Suter wrote: Outlook needs a 'trigger lock' on the send button... Also, I have no idea why outlook decided to add a bunch of crap to my email. Guess I should be using a decent mail program! ;c} Yeah-Thunderbird is one of the best ways to go! edits below: C Most preamps I run into are at least 10 years old. Sure they might still work, but RF transistor technology has sure improved in the last few years. These amps are *not* going to pass DTV acceptably. That's the gripe. If I put up an antenna that works fine for analog, there is no excuse for it NOT to work with digital, except that digital must be crap. Rf is RF. or the point of resonance is not suitable for dt so it's deaf Virtually everybody I have talked to has had nothing but problems with DTV. Invariably they get fewer channels, and stations that are good to excellent in analog can frequently be unwatchable in digital. To see a digital as reliably as an analog is the exception, not the rule. So you suggest the physics in your part of the world differs from over here? as so far digital in my country has been successful with large distances also between set and tx . What is your explanation for such a thing _ Get rid of those unwanted christmas presents! Get what you want at ebay. http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Frover%2Eebay%2Ecom%2Frover%2F1%2F705%2D10129%2D5668%2D323%2F4%3Fid%3D10_t=763807330_r=hotmailTAGLINES_m=EXT
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
If the digital is on a very different frequency, then the frequency change is a reason why digital reception may be problematic. For example, if you are using a VHF antenna to try to receive a UHF digital signal, that will be problematic. -- Original Message -- Received: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:14:14 PM PST From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work That's the gripe. If I put up an antenna that works fine for analog, there is no excuse for it NOT to work with digital, except that digital must be crap. Rf is RF. Virtually everybody I have talked to has had nothing but problems with DTV. Invariably they get fewer channels, and stations that are good to excellent in analog can frequently be unwatchable in digital. To see a digital as reliably as an analog is the exception, not the rule.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
How much RF does it take to get a clear NTSC picture? Usable? I know the local cable tower tried to get at least a -20 dBm signal (!!!) on analog TV inputs. Most DTV converter units with published spec's need between -82 dBm and -86 dBm at the antenna jack on the back of the unit to capture a complete bit stream. I do *not* know how much SNR is required to get a complete bit stream. Personally, I'm not in the TV business but I crawl around on a lot of rooftops and 'nice' home-use TV towers. Most people's OTA setups contain at least one range-eating screw-up. These things will do a lot worse nasties to a digital signal than an analog: A improperly assembled antenna. So many times I see the UHF 'bowtie' on store bought all-band antennas positioned incorrectly. The instruction sheet knows best. B Unsealed coax connections. F connectors ain't waterproof, not even the 'snap-n-seal' ones. C Most preamps I run into are at least 10 years old. Sure they might still work, but RF transistor technology has sure improved in the last few years. These amps are *not* going to pass DTV acceptably. In my rf/data experience otherwise, if the bitrate/frequency ratio is very high (DTV is doing 20 mbit out of 6 mhz of spectrum, that's a pretty damned high ratio) D Height. If you want your antenna close to the ground, might I suggest getting a little round grey one that points to the Clark Belt, with a box attached that requires you to shove dollar bills in an envelope every month to continue working. You will be happier. Personally, I've always heard rural TV requires one foot of height per one mile of distance in flatland conditions... I think this holds true once you're 25 miles from the transmitter site (maybe less if the site isn't a typical 1950 ft tall tier-1 market TV tower). Check your location against topo maps. Just one small hill can screw up all your calculations (or a big river valley can pull signals in from ridiculous distances at low heights) E Bad coax choices: Either incorrectly crimped, incorrectly handled, improperly spec'd (white indoor coax won't stay 'good' outdoors for more than a few months, maybe a year) etc coax used, then badly installed (not secured). There are very good 75 ohm coaxes available. RG-11 is pretty nice stuff. F off-channel noise slaughtering your amplifier. Most TV amps are unfiltered (or contain a simple 88-108 FM trap), if you've got a big pager transmitter, repeater, etc (cellphone stuff doesn't tend to count since its fairly low power) nearby you could easily be 'hosing' the entire setup. Filters are your friends. I plan to do some experimentation with marketed-for-cable-company inline filters. Normally used to keep Basic Cable customers from seeing other channels, or cable-modem-only customers from watching TV, they sell these in all sorts of specialty frequencies for cheap. Can't beat cheap + published specifications. Here's how I'd get HDTV today, assuming I really wanted to watch OTA TV: Info: I'm about 175 miles from Houston's tower farm, 140 miles from DFW's tower farm, and there's a sprinkling of stations around Tyler and Lufkin... I have a 150' rohn 25 in my yard, about 185 ft from my house. There's currently 2 strands of multimode fiber going from my house to the tower, speaking Ethernet (100mbit, full duplex). I'd buy one of these: http://www.silicondust.com/products/hdhomerun ($180), place it in an outdoor-friendly metal enclosure with an Ethernet-fiber converter/transceiver. I have isolated 120VAC running up my tower already, powering the gear isn't a problem. Add antennas. I'd most likely go with dedicated VHF and UHF antennas and tuned/filtered amplifiers on each, and use a nice 'ham radio' type rotator. Keep the coax short, use RG11, and seal it well. I'd buy a nice HTPC (Home Theater PC... nothing fancy, just a basic PC with TV-friendly outputs. If you've got a decent TV it'll take HDMI or DVI, which is even better). Microsoft's set-top/media center edition software is good enough to test with, at least. ($400-500ish total here) Dedicated duplex (2 strand) fiber run from the top of the tower to the top of my TV set... Of course, having the tools, fiber, ends and knowledge helps. And, after all this, I'd get to watch horrible reality shows, get my daily dose of propaganda (news), watch late-night TV guys make asses out of themselves, and the 3 decent shows PBS shows when they're begging for more money to run transmitters that they don't need (pbs.org should offer streaming...) Doesn't really seem worth the effort/wind load/money... :) JS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:42 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - an interesting antenna design This is going to be a bigger problem than many stations may have anticipated. A friend of
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Somewhat OT - How to make HDTV *really* work
Outlook needs a 'trigger lock' on the send button... Also, I have no idea why outlook decided to add a bunch of crap to my email. Guess I should be using a decent mail program! edits below: C Most preamps I run into are at least 10 years old. Sure they might still work, but RF transistor technology has sure improved in the last few years. These amps are *not* going to pass DTV acceptably. In my rf/data experience otherwise, if the bitrate/frequency ratio is very high (DTV is doing 20 mbit out of 6 mhz of spectrum, that's a pretty damned high ratio) Continued: If the bit density is very high, you really do not want to use amplifiers. Amplifiers *always* add distortion. You also can't magically 'find' signal that's below the noise floor with an amplifier. All you can *really* do with an amplifier in most digital systems is make up for coax losses (as long as the amp is mounted at the antenna, and no the far end of the loss), which one would be better off making as small as possible and eliminating the amplifier. With DTV this is easy since you're dealing with 1's and 0's, capture and process the data as close to the antenna as possible, and move to a less 'lossy' medium to move the data into your house. If you insist on using coax and decoding at your TV set, you're going to have to buy good coax. 'good coax' satellite use isn't always good for OTA TV use. All *real* pro setups I've seen here use RG11 or larger *75 ohm* coax. --- JS
