Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: paging system
On Jun 3, 2007, at 12:07 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: I've thought about this since the thread started. Don't you think that the godfathers of the controllers, (SCOM, ACC and others), would have incorporated the paging tones into their systems UNLESS they had done their homework as to the legality of this issue? Truthfully yes. Controllers are sold into other industries other than ham radio. Operating one's station by the law is the responsibility of the Amateur, not the manufacturer of any particular piece of equipment. If you buy an fancy new multi-band rig, and are a Technician-class licensee, you'd best not fire it up in a band you don't have privileges for, as one example. That'd be your head, not Yaesu's. I would bet a lot of money that those manufacturers checked the rules and regs long before they added that feature. I wouldn't. They don't have to. (I'm not arguing the legality of it or not at all, just that there's no direct correlation between a manufacturer having a feature and that feature being legal or not. Hundreds of Amateurs operated EchoLink and IRLP illegally without control operators as something akin to Auxiliary Stations in the VHF band, before that was legal. It now is legal to operate Auxiliary Stations in VHF, but Part 97 up until last year stated that Auxiliary Stations were to remain at 222.15 or above, before the recent Report Orders changed that rule.) -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: paging system
Chris, OK - switching to serious mode for now. Using the one transmission to one radio argument doesn't float... What about a group discussion or ragchew on the repeater (or any other frequency/mode, for that matter?? During those, you are technically transmitting your message to more than one receiving station simultaneously. Now I know we're going WAY off topic with this, but here's a question to ponder... What is the difference between sending paging tones off the local repeater to a group of hams, and sending a QSTR message to that same group of hams? The paging method uses DTMP of single-frequency tone(s), whereas the QST message uses variable frequency voice. I see no difference as long as the transmission is destined for the use of a group of licensed amateurs. Using the logic of above, then the QST transmission of NewsLine becomes illegal. (And I'd hate to have to count all the net control stations who do that on a weekly basis.) But then again, I'm not a lawyer, or an FCC regulator... 73 de Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Christopher Hodgdon Now, this makes a little more sense. As you show here, if you are using say a DTMF or Tone Page to activate only one radio or pager at a single time is not considered paging, but if you are activating more than 1 pager, then that is considered broadcasting, correct. One problem is that here locally, several ARES/RACES groups in a few cities and counties, have their repeaters setup to set out a tone alert and DTMF code that opens up pagers setup for the tones and radios setup for the DTMF code to activate SkyWarn nets and more. Some say that their paging cycle takes up to 2 minutes to complete from start to finish, so I don't know if the system sends the tone page to each member one at a time or not. But all of them talk about sending out the tones ot DTMF tones to open the radios and pagers of their members. I would consider this paging broadcasting myself, though it might no be when the rules and regs are applied. But my question is still, doesn't the FCC also consider the one way transmission from, again as an example, W1AW that are training codes, announcements, bullitens, etc. to also be a broadcast transmission, since it is intened for all amateurs that receive it? That is one way I am confused about broadcasting, as it applies to the rules. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, n9wys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey - don't wrap me up in this, simply because I **am** one To-many... 73 de Mark TOMANY - N9WYS Sorry - couldn't resist a bit of weird humor... hi hi
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: paging system
Good catch, Laryn! I think this supports my previous assertion, too. Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Laryn Lohman 97.3 Definitions (10) Broadcasting. Transmissions intended for reception by the general public, either direct or relayed. Laryn K8TVZ
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: paging system
I've thought about this since the thread started. Don't you think that the godfathers of the controllers, (SCOM, ACC and others), would have incorporated the paging tones into their systems UNLESS they had done their homework as to the legality of this issue? I would bet a lot of money that those manufacturers checked the rules and regs long before they added that feature. I just can't see that a major controller manufacturer would have added that feature unless it was legal to do. Riley would have literally a field day as to the fines the FCC would impose on both the owners and control ops of the repeater. Just my $0.02 1/2 worth . . . . Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: n9wys [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:39 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: paging system Chris, OK - switching to serious mode for now. Using the one transmission to one radio argument doesn't float... What about a group discussion or ragchew on the repeater (or any other frequency/mode, for that matter?? During those, you are technically transmitting your message to more than one receiving station simultaneously. Now I know we're going WAY off topic with this, but here's a question to ponder... What is the difference between sending paging tones off the local repeater to a group of hams, and sending a QSTR message to that same group of hams? The paging method uses DTMP of single-frequency tone(s), whereas the QST message uses variable frequency voice. I see no difference as long as the transmission is destined for the use of a group of licensed amateurs. Using the logic of above, then the QST transmission of NewsLine becomes illegal. (And I'd hate to have to count all the net control stations who do that on a weekly basis.) But then again, I'm not a lawyer, or an FCC regulator... 73 de Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Christopher Hodgdon Now, this makes a little more sense. As you show here, if you are using say a DTMF or Tone Page to activate only one radio or pager at a single time is not considered paging, but if you are activating more than 1 pager, then that is considered broadcasting, correct. One problem is that here locally, several ARES/RACES groups in a few cities and counties, have their repeaters setup to set out a tone alert and DTMF code that opens up pagers setup for the tones and radios setup for the DTMF code to activate SkyWarn nets and more. Some say that their paging cycle takes up to 2 minutes to complete from start to finish, so I don't know if the system sends the tone page to each member one at a time or not. But all of them talk about sending out the tones ot DTMF tones to open the radios and pagers of their members. I would consider this paging broadcasting myself, though it might no be when the rules and regs are applied. But my question is still, doesn't the FCC also consider the one way transmission from, again as an example, W1AW that are training codes, announcements, bullitens, etc. to also be a broadcast transmission, since it is intened for all amateurs that receive it? That is one way I am confused about broadcasting, as it applies to the rules. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, n9wys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey - don't wrap me up in this, simply because I **am** one To-many... 73 de Mark TOMANY - N9WYS Sorry - couldn't resist a bit of weird humor... hi hi Yahoo! Groups Links !DSPAM:1016,4662fd0f774175802679531!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: paging system
Threaded in... n9wys wrote: Chris, OK - switching to serious mode for now. Using the one transmission to one radio argument doesn't float... What about a group discussion or ragchew on the repeater (or any other frequency/mode, for that matter?? During those, you are technically transmitting your message to more than one receiving station simultaneously. Better example: You talk to anyone on a repeater, you should EXPECT that a control operator is monitoring. That alone is always multiple stations. Now I know we're going WAY off topic with this, but here's a question to ponder... What is the difference between sending paging tones off the local repeater to a group of hams, and sending a QSTR message to that same group of hams? The paging method uses DTMP of single-frequency tone(s), whereas the QST message uses variable frequency voice. This is getting bad. I guess there are those who would argue if you call someone, and they don't answer, that is a one-way transmission and broadcasting. Telemetry is a legal one-way transmission. Repeater functions are legal one way transmissions. IF you want to get technical, the repeater is responding to your command to send the paging tone, so you talked to the repeater and issued a command, and received a response in the firm of two (or more) tones. As I said before, Telemetry is legal, and so are user functions. Otherwise, you would be illegal every time someone requested the time. Joe M.
