RE: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Eric Lemmon]

Don,

Don't be in a big rush to provide AC backup power if your repeater can float
on batteries.  My local electric utility is going to cough up about $1,300
to repair a commercial repeater that suffered a scrambled memory because the
well-meaning site operator installed a large APC UPS to "protect" the
repeater.  When the 12kV power line to the site lost one phase, the UPS ran
down rather quickly and then began to kick in and out, which interfered with
the station's boot-up process.  In this situation, a small (under 2 kVA) UPS
is more of a liability than an asset.

If the station can run on DC power, always consider using a floated battery
bank as your primary power source.  You do not need a huge power supply with
a floated battery bank; usually, a 12 or 20 ampere power supply is more than
adequate.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Kupferschmidt
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:37 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

Hello all,
 
I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking to
place a UPS in line for backup.
 
I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and what to
stay away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to spend no
more than $200.00.
 
Thoughts and comments appreciated.
 
TIA,
 
Don, KD9PT
 

 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Don Kupferschmidt]

Mike, (and others)

Thanks for all the comments about the UPS.  Can you direct me to a web site 
showing schematics for items 1 and 2 listed below?
Also, if you have any vendors that you've dealt with that are reputable for 
both the IOTA and the AGM battery, I'd be interested.

I'm also curious about needing a reserve capacity.  Suppose the combined system 
draws, say 20 amps, does one need to
increase the IOTA's charging power capacity to say, 30 amps?

TIA,

Don, KD9PT

1)  The better way is to simply use the batteries directly on 
the repeater - just use a Absorbed Glass Mat battery 
(also known as an AGM battery) and float it across the 
repeater power buss. The efficiency goes up, if you are 
paying the AC power bill your wallet is happier, and you
get zero switchover time.

2)  A compromise design that I've seen has the repeater 
power supply and the backup battery diode OR'd to 
the repeater itself with 75amp stud-mount diodes 
(from a dead fire truck alternator), with an IOTA brand 
charger on the backup battery (which was a bank of 
glass-cased Exide telephone central office style 
batteries - 5 gallons of electrolyte per cell)

So my recommendation, if you have a solid state repeater, 
is an AGM battery with a IOTA power supply / charger.
Don't save money on the charger - a good one will last, 
a cheap one won't and may take your battery bank with it.
A good IOTA power supply / charger is NOT a waste of 
money and a cheap one is false economy.

Mike WA6ILQ
 !DSPAM:1016,4654b50e966881259319195! 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

At 09:37 AM 05/23/07, you wrote:

Hello all,

I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking 
to place a UPS in line for backup.


I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and 
what to stay away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm 
willing to spend no more than $200.00.


Thoughts and comments appreciated.

TIA,

Don, KD9PT


For a cheap UPS talk to any of your friend in the IT world. There
are enough uninformed "technicians" (and it use that term generously)
in the IT universe that have no idea as to which end of a screwdriver is
the handle...
When a UPS dies (at about the 3 years point) they just throw it away
and buy a new one. In fact I just recently "re-batteried" a several APC
"Back-UPS PRO 1000" units for a client.

Three comments of warning about APC:
1) They pass all the AC line junk through the unit (via relay contacts)
until there is a brownout (i.e. low AC voltage) or an outage (no AC voltage).
Then the inverter fires up, and the relay switches over. You WILL have an
outage as long as one to two tenths of a second. I've seen desktops and
servers reboot under those conditions (usually mans that the computer
power supply has dying caps, which is a whole 'nother problem).
2) APC runs the batteries hard. Plan on replacing them every 3 years.
3) They over-rate their units.  Rarely does any APC give you over
25-30 minutes of run-time. They are designed to provide graceful
shutdown time, not to ride out an outage of any length. Graceful
shutdown means that the server power cord is plugged into the UPS,
and a serial port is  plugged into the DB9 jack in the back of the
UPS (via a special cable they sell, one that has a transistorized
circuit buried in one of the molded rubber shells). When the power
fails the UPS sends a signal to the server over the serial port
announcing power fail (they simply change the CD signal from
active to inactive).
In a properly designed network the server messages all the users
and gives them 5 minutes to save the current work and log out.
Then the server shuts down before the battery runs out (or in
large data centers the generator starts up).

The biggest problem with using an IT UPS in a solid state
repeater environment is efficiency. You are running
AC to 12 or 24 or 48V DC and then back to AC into the
repeater power supply which makes 12vDC.

The better way is to simply use the batteries directly on
the repeater - just use a Absorbed Glass Mat battery
(also known as an AGM battery) and float it across the
repeater power buss. The efficiency goes up, if you are
paying the AC power bill your wallet is happier, and you
get zero switchover time.

A compromise design that I've seen has the repeater
power supply and the backup battery diode OR'd to
the repeater itself with 75amp stud-mount diodes
(from a dead fire truck alternator), with an IOTA brand
charger on the backup battery (which was a bank of
glass-cased Exide telephone central office style
batteries - 5 gallons of electrolyte per cell)

So my recommendation, if you have a solid state repeater,
is an AGM battery with a IOTA power supply / charger.
Don't save money on the charger - a good one will last,
a cheap one won't and may take your battery bank with it.
A good IOTA power supply / charger is NOT a waste of
money and a cheap one is false economy.

Mike WA6ILQ

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Shanon Herron]

Hello Don,
   
  AGM batteries, IOTA power supply/ charger.  Do a google search on each.  DO 
NOT CHARGE ATM BATTERIES WITH A CHEEP CHARGER!!!  Only one time with a cheep 
charger is enough to totally destroy one.  And they will not warranty it if you 
do.
   
The IOTA power supply/charger with the IC-4 intelligent charger add on or 
built in is a compatible tri-state charger.  You can order the supply to suit 
your current needs.  The 55 amp version with IC-4 cost me $209 delivered a few 
years ago.
   
The Advanced Glass Mat battery is deep cycle.  Cost is around $100 (check 
Cabella's too)
   
  73, Shanon KA8SPW

Don Kupferschmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hello all,
   
  I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking to place 
a UPS in line for backup.
   
  I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and what to stay 
away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to spend no more than 
$200.00.
   
  Thoughts and comments appreciated.
   
  TIA,
   
  Don, KD9PT
   
 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Bob M.]

You can get SU2200RM3U units for that price on eBay.
These weigh 50 lbs and the 8 batteries weigh another
50 lbs. It may be easier to get a unit without
batteries, then buy those separately. It could cost
nearly $90 for all the shipping.

Even at this capacity, the units typically won't give
you more than 30 minute run-time, depending on the
load. If you have a backup generator at the site, you
don't need nearly that much run-time. If no generator,
then you should consider powering the repeater on
12VDC all the time.

Also, the APC SmartUPS series, despite what they say
about them, pass the line voltage through until it
goes away, then the inverter starts up and a relay
switches the load to the inverter. This takes a cycle
or two and most loads don't care about that short of a
glitch. However, if the incoming power is noisy or
doesn't completely fail, these units will pass nearly
99% of all incoming faults right to the load. Some
loads won't care, others might. They have a sine-wave
output and are quite inexpensive on the used market.
They just aren't very good at providing a clean source
of power. I guess that's why they aren't described as
line conditioners.

The best units to buy are called "true on-line". The
incoming AC charges the battery, the battery runs the
inverter, the inverter runs the load 100% of the time.
When the AC power fails, the charger stops working but
the load never knows. Unfortunately you won't find one
of these, of any size, for $200. This is about as good
as running everything on batteries. Granted, you do go
through another AC->DC->AC conversion to do it.

Bob M.
==
--- Don Kupferschmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters
> and I'm looking to place a UPS in line for backup.
> 
> I'm looking for information on make and models -
> what's good and what to stay away from.  The VA
> range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to spend no
> more than $200.00.
> 
> Thoughts and comments appreciated.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Don, KD9PT


   
Be
 a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. 
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

RE: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Paul Finch]

Batteries would be the only way to go.  Find a good charger that "floats"
the battery at the correct voltage.

Paul
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Mumphrey
Kc5ozh
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:18 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

IMHO,
Don, If this is your requirements, you may need to think about going to a
straight battery back-up. $200.00 may make a "good downpayment" on a UPS
that will give you any type of repeater running time.
Happy Hunting
Charlie

"It is not the class of license the Amateur holds, but the class of the
Amateur that holds the license."

Charles Mumphrey
Amateur Radio Station Kc5ozh
Kc5ozh Rowlett Repeater: 441.325 MHz + 162.2 Kc5ozh Dallas Repeater: 441.950
MHz + 162.2 Kc5ozh Rowlett Repeater II: 441.950 MHz + 110.9 Rowlett
R.A.C.E.S. Unit 823 http://www.CharliesElectronics.com
http://www.hello-radio.org
http://www.emergency-radio.org


>  Original Message 
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UPS
> From: "Don Kupferschmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, May 23, 2007 11:37 am
> To: 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking 
> to place a UPS in line for backup.
> 
> I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and what 
> to stay away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to 
> spend no more than $200.00.
> 
> Thoughts and comments appreciated.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Don, KD9PT





 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Bernie Hunt]

I've been using Belkins with my computer clients. APC is the old name in
the industry, but I found the Belkins are just as good and less
expensive.
 
This is what I use on workstations;
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=199025
 
These on servers
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=186894
 
But is going over 1500VA I have to go with APC.
 
Bernie
 




From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Kupferschmidt
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:37 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UPS



Hello all,
 
I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking to
place a UPS in line for backup.
 
I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and what to
stay away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to spend
no more than $200.00.
 
Thoughts and comments appreciated.
 
TIA,
 
Don, KD9PT
 

 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Jay Urish]

That was going to be my suggestion... You gain a boatload of efficiency 
that way.. Just build a 12v AGM battery bank and float it with a power 
supply.. oh yea.. 0ms switchover is a perk too.

Maire-Radios wrote:
> 
> 
> *I don't know what the 200.00 is going to get you but pay the shipping 
> cost.  We use a lot of Best Power UPS and the last one I got used from 
> Ebay was $1000.00 and that was without Batteries.Your other think 
> you may look at is if all the equipment is 12VDC and back it up that way.*
> ** 
>  
> 
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Don Kupferschmidt 
> *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:37 PM
> *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] UPS
> 
> Hello all,
>  
> I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking
> to place a UPS in line for backup.
>  
> I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and
> what to stay away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm
> willing to spend no more than $200.00.
>  
> Thoughts and comments appreciated.
>  
> TIA,
>  
> Don, KD9PT
>  
> 
> 

-- 
Jay Urish   CCNANetwork Engineer

Home)972-691-0125
Cell)972-965-6229

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Maire-Radios]

I don't know what the 200.00 is going to get you but pay the shipping cost.  We 
use a lot of Best Power UPS and the last one I got used from Ebay was $1000.00 
and that was without Batteries.Your other think you may look at is if all 
the equipment is 12VDC and back it up that way.


  - Original Message - 
  From: Don Kupferschmidt 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:37 PM
  Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UPS



  Hello all,

  I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking to place 
a UPS in line for backup.

  I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and what to stay 
away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to spend no more than 
$200.00.

  Thoughts and comments appreciated.

  TIA,

  Don, KD9PT


   

RE: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Charles Mumphrey Kc5ozh]

IMHO,
Don, If this is your requirements, you may need to think about going to
a straight battery back-up. $200.00 may make a "good downpayment" on a
UPS that will give you any type of repeater running time.
Happy Hunting
Charlie

"It is not the class of license the Amateur holds, but the class of the
Amateur that holds the license."

Charles Mumphrey
Amateur Radio Station Kc5ozh
Kc5ozh Rowlett Repeater: 441.325 MHz + 162.2
Kc5ozh Dallas Repeater: 441.950 MHz + 162.2
Kc5ozh Rowlett Repeater II: 441.950 MHz + 110.9
Rowlett R.A.C.E.S. Unit 823
http://www.CharliesElectronics.com
http://www.hello-radio.org
http://www.emergency-radio.org


>  Original Message 
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UPS
> From: "Don Kupferschmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, May 23, 2007 11:37 am
> To: 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking
> to place a UPS in line for backup.
> 
> I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and what
> to stay away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to
> spend no more than $200.00.
> 
> Thoughts and comments appreciated.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Don, KD9PT

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[Jay Urish]

What type of repeater equipment are you looking to backup? Please 
provide band/output power etc..

Don Kupferschmidt wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello all,
>  
> I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking to 
> place a UPS in line for backup.
>  
> I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and what to 
> stay away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to 
> spend no more than $200.00.
>  
> Thoughts and comments appreciated.
>  
> TIA,
>  
> Don, KD9PT
>  
> 

-- 
Jay Urish   CCNANetwork Engineer

Home)972-691-0125
Cell)972-965-6229

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UPS

[DCFluX]

APC makes good UPS' . Just be sure you have a regular schedule to change the
batteries. I would recommend 2 to 3 years.

Stay away from their air conditioners, they are crap.

On 5/23/07, Don Kupferschmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Hello all,

I'm in the process of rebuilding one of my repeaters and I'm looking to
place a UPS in line for backup.

I'm looking for information on make and models - what's good and what to
stay away from.  The VA range is 1300 to 1500, and I'm willing to spend no
more than $200.00.

Thoughts and comments appreciated.

TIA,

Don, KD9PT