Re: RE: Rietveld: U,V,W

2008-12-01 Thread Davor Balzar
As Maxim says, strain-related parameters are U and Y. By the same token, 
size-related parameters are P and X (both go with 1/cos(Theta). The reason is 
that this Rietveld model (the so-called TCH) assumes a Voigt function for both 
size and strain profile and therefore has to have both Lorentzian and Gaussian 
components. 

When refining the parameters, one has to keep in mind that instrumental 
broadening in general depends on the same parameters. Therefore, first refine 
all profile parameters on the diffraction pattern of the standard sample (as 
Brian said, LaB6 or similar) and then refine ONLY four parameters (U,P,X,Y) for 
the sample of interest, as far as instrumental conditions stay the same. 

More details and how to calculate size and strain from U,P,X, and Y were 
published in JAC 37 (2004) 911-924. The reprint and original data from seven 
different instruments (including synchrotron and neutron) can be found at 
http://mysite.du.edu/~balzar/s-s_rr.htm.

Davor BalzarUniversity of Denverwww.du.eduwww.du.edu/~balzar

- Original Message - 
From: Maxim V. Lobanov [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:37 pm 
Subject: RE: Rietveld:  U,V,W 
To: rietveld_l@ill.fr 


 Dear colleagues, 
  
   
  
  one question on that: 
  
   
  
  U and W should be instrumental constants that will not change with sample, 
  while V can have both an instrumental and a residual stress component. 
  
  as far as I understand, the strain broadening term should have FWMM~theta 
  dependence, i.e. Lorentzian Y in standard (GSAS) notation. 
  
  For the Gaussian part you have 
  
  FWHM^2=U*tan^2(th)+V*tan(th)+W+P/cos^2(th) 
  
  and the term that varies roughly as ~theta is U, not V. 
  
  Therefore, based on that and probably erroneously, I used to refine U 
  parameter rather than V (+ P, X, Y, of course). 
  
   
  
  I am wondering if somebody could make this more clear? 
  
   
  
  FullProf might be a bit more stable, but I think the process there 
 is about 
  the same. (BTW, if anyone works out how to convert GSAS profile 
 terms to 
  ones used in FullProf, I'd be interested to get those relationships into 
  CMPR; I am not sure if the scaling is only between centidegrees**2 and 
  degrees**2.) 
  
  So far I noticed that Fullprof uses interchanged (v.r.t. GSAS) XY, 
 i.e. X 
  corresponds to strain term there. There might be also other 
 differences, of 
  course... 
  
   
  
   
  
  Sincerely, 
  
  Maxim. 
  
   
  
  From: Brian H. Toby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 5:21 AM 
  To: May, Frank 
  Cc: rietveld_l@ill.fr 
  Subject: Re: Rietveld: U,V,W 
  
   
  
  What is the correct procedure for refining U,V,W?  It is my understanding 
  that those parameters are a function of instrument geometry.  Does 
 one use a 
  standard material to determine U,V,W and then fix their values for the 
  instrument you're using?or do the values of U,V,W change 
 depending on 
  the sample being examined?  If so, why do the values change? 
  
   
  
  The GSAS manual covers the latter part of you questions pretty well, 
 though 
  perhaps indirectly. In theory, U and W should be instrumental 
 constants that 
  will not change with sample, while V can have both an instrumental 
 and a 
  residual stress component. However, this assumes that one also 
 refines a 
  crystallite size parameter, P when needed, which many people (myself 
  included) do not. In that case, U, V  W will all change to 
 compensate for 
  crystallite broadening. 
  
   
  
  I do recommend using a standard with good sharp peaks (SRM LaB6 is the 
  ideal, though there are likely to be many other oxides handy that work 
  reasonably.) If you can't get a good fit to your standard, then you 
 do not 
  want to advance to an unknown until you understand the problems with 
 your 
  instrument/technique. 
  
   
  
  Where possible, I try to start a refinement with values that are 
 close to 
  correct for U, V  W (+ X  Y where significant) and put off refining 
 them 
  until late in the refinement, when they tend to be pretty stabile. 
  Initially, I usually refine U, V  W together and then refine X and 
 then Y 
  solo and then finally in combinations until everything is refined together. 
  Look for parameters that are refining to zero and turn them off, 
 since GSAS 
  does not deal with that very well. Also look at the widths vs 2theta 
  (widplt) to see if the functions are reasonable. 
  
   
  
  The routine in CMPR for fitting U, V  W values to a set of peak 
 widths has 
  been useful for me where I don't have good calibration information 
 for an 
  instrument. 
  
   
  
  FullProf might be a bit more stable, but I think the process there is 
 about 
  the same. (BTW, if anyone works out how to convert GSAS profile terms 
 to 
  ones used in FullProf, I'd be interested to get those relationships into 
  CMPR; I am not sure if the scaling is only between centidegrees**2 and 
  

Re: Rietveld: U,V,W

2008-12-01 Thread Jim Cline

Hi,

Self Citation: NIST Standard Reference Materials for 
Characterization of Instrument Performance Industrial Applications 
of X-ray Diffraction Ed by F. H. Chung  D. K. Smith, pp 903-917.  A 
pdf is available; email to request.


In this I outline how I use SRM 660 (it was 660 in 2000, then it was 
660a until ~July '07, we are working on 660b) for qualifying and 
characterizing instrument performance with both profile fitting and 
the Rietveld method, via GSAS.  I suggest obtaining a set of TCH 
parameters with LaB6.  The instrument specific ones thereafter 
remained fixed while the other are used as a floor for refined 
values.  With this approach I was able to obtain stable and 
meaningful results from laboratory equipment.


Regards,

Jim

At 08:25 PM 11/30/2008, you wrote:

To all:

What is the correct procedure for refining U,V,W?  It is my 
understanding that those parameters are a function of instrument 
geometry.  Does one use a standard material to determine U,V,W and 
then fix their values for the instrument you're using?or do the 
values of U,V,W change depending on the sample being examined?  If 
so, why do the values change?


Thanks in advance.

Frank May



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sun 11/30/2008 1:32 PM
To: rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: I am a newcome, how can I begin my rietveld refinement analysis



Hi, Li:

To me, the most wonderful tool to determine initial peakshape parameters is
CMPR.
CMPR is especially oriented to GSAS and gives you GU, GV, GW etc. And when
you use EXPGUI for GSAS, you can also try Graphs-widplt to see how FWHM
develops when parameters are tuned.
When you prefer Fullprof, you should take a factor to get U, V, W etc. i am
not sure about the facor exactly, maybe GX~100X(X=U, V, W), er..? Anyway,
just go ahead and make a try.

Faithfully
Jun Lu
--
Lst. Prof. Lijie Qiao
Department of Materials Physics and Chemistry
University of Science and Technology Beijing
100083 Beijing
P.R. China
http://www.instrument.com.cn/ilog/handsomeland/


James P. Cline
Ceramics Division
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Dr. stop 8520 [ B113 / Bldg 217 ]
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8523USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(301) 975 5793
FAX (301) 975 5334