Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng & environmental sustainability / Climate Action (events, reports, papers)

[Vesna Manojlovic]

Dear RIPE List,

to reply to Randy's question in a round-about way:

On 03/02/2024 20:44, Randy Bush wrote:

vesna or other fosdem attendees, did you look in on the junior track?


group of topics that "juniors" are busy with these days are: climate 
justice & environmental sustainability *in tech*... because:


“No research on a dead planet”: preserving the socio-ecological 
conditions for academia 
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feduc.2023.1237076



You can see that from the focus of upcoming academic events:

7. March: Willem De Kooning Academy (Rotterdam) : "Traces of Power" : 
https://top.permacomputing.net


21-22. March: Royal Science Academy (KNAW) (Amsterdam) :
"Sustainable Digitalisation in Europe: Focus on data infrastructures and 
cloud 
computing" https://aces.uva.nl/content/events/2024/03/sustainable-digitalisation-in-europe.html


18-19. June (Online) Tenth Workshop on "Computing within Limits"
https://computingwithinlimits.org/2024/

^^^ Call for papers & Local Hubs is open till 15th March!

More events, that I already posted to RACI list (Academic Cooperation)
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/raci-list/2024-February/000276.html
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/raci-list/2024-February/000279.html


Our industry is also busy with these topics:

* Via Chris Adams: report on "Energy Consumption in Data Centres and 
Broadband Communication Networks in the EU" (2024-02-16)

https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/handle/JRC135926

(by European Commission's Joint Research Centre)

"It gives some good analysis of the various data sources, and how they 
were collected. Page 27 is a really information dense, but helpful chart 
- showing datacenter use side by side with networks, as well as the 
share that these make up of national energy use."


* Via Rudolf van der Berg: GSMA just published a report on how telcos 
are doing with regards to Net Zero goals "2024: State of the Industry on 
Climate Action" 
 https://www.gsma.com/betterfuture/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Mobile-Net-Zero-2024-State-of-the-Industry-on-Climate-Action.pdf


My favourite quote: "Increasing the circularity of mobile phones and 
network equipment is critical to reducing value chain emissions. "



"Climate action" (#) is also known as SDG13, and it was mentioned in:

** Inter-University Sustainable Development Research Programme (IUSDRP) 
et.al paper  "The central role of climate action in achieving the United 
Nations’ Sustainable Development Goals": 
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-47746-w.


** & in the talk at ICANN's EURALO Roundtable meeting on "Internet 
Governance for Sustainable Development Goals" in February 
https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=303202361


Therefore, any activity for educating / attracting "next generation" of 
RIPE participants should be including topics of climate action.


Regards,
Vesna

(#) https://sdgs.un.org/goals/goal13

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Michele Neylon - Blacknight via ripe-list]

Well maybe a starting point would be for some of the “grey beards” to stop 
being so confrontational and generally “crusty” when it comes to engaging with 
new members of the RIPE community.

I honestly don’t see how RIPE or any of the other technical groups is going to 
flourish in the future of it continues to be dominated by a vocal group of, 
mostly, older white men who have an unhealthy relationship with a Utopian 
vision of the Internet from 20 odd years ago.

The Internet of 2024 is a very different beast from that of the 1990s.

Regards


Michele

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I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you 
to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.


From: ripe-list  on behalf of Randy Bush 

Date: Sunday, 4 February 2024 at 21:16
To: RIPE List 
Subject: [ripe-list] RIPEng
[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised 
sources.

at ripe and nanog we talk about bringing up the next generation.  at
fosdem they're doing it.

a good friend reports that fosdem has a junior track this year.  they
brought their tweens to it, and it was great!  very hands on.  vesna or
other fosdem attendees, did you look in on the junior track?

so what would be a junior program for ripe or nanog?

randy

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Sander Steffann]

Hi Randy,

> my personal take is that there are a bunch of folk focused on serving
> the younger set and making the next generation of programmers and UI
> designers.  and that is not really our main bailiwick.  we should focus
> on network and services engineering.  but i am biased.

Same for me :)

> to put my money where my mouth is (sorry for another idiom), i volunteer
> to teach basic routing, but need folk to help organise, recruit, ...
> and i don't think it is the ncc's role this season, as folk are beating
> the ncc up over budget.

I volunteer as well!
Sander


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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Leslie]

I think a great junior program would just be a "how does content get to
your phone" -- A lot of folks don't know about datacenters and networks!
And showing lots of pictures and diagrams about what datacenters and
networking gear looks like.  You can then introduce basic routing
protocols, BGP, peering, transit, last mile networks, and so on.

I am biased because I gave a (adult SRE focused) talk on this some years
back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPEZU_Uk-vM and it was really well
received and a lot of folks came up to me asking questions about networks.

On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 10:10 AM Randy Bush  wrote:

> > Maybe I misunderstood your initial goal.
>
> to incite the community to move from talking about the next generation
> to doing something other than move the mailing lists to discord.  there
> are many things we could do.  i do not class changing the color of my
> shirt among them.
>
> randy
>
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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Randy Bush]

> Maybe I misunderstood your initial goal.

to incite the community to move from talking about the next generation
to doing something other than move the mailing lists to discord.  there
are many things we could do.  i do not class changing the color of my
shirt among them.

randy

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Howard, Lee]

Maybe I misunderstood your initial goal.
If your goal is to make sure there is a new generation of network engineers to 
replace us as we get old, then you want to make sure there's are cohorts of 
working-age or very-nearly-working age people who know the fundamentals of 
network engineering. So the target demo is 18-25 year olds. I would want to 
assume very little prerequisite knowledge, and use simple enough language that 
a young teenager might still enjoy it, but that's not the goal. I know my kid 
enjoyed and contributed to IETF Hackathons even at age 10.

"Prerequisite knowledge" may be surprising, though. Students entering 
university now have a lower level of literacy than they did five years ago, 
having lost 1-2 years of school and having less focus on school since the 
pandemic. Many have no knowledge of file systems or PC hardware, having 
experienced all internet on phones and tablets.

So that's why I went straight to content. I was thinking, "What do I wish 
new/aspiring network engineers knew?"

Lee

-Original Message-
From: Randy Bush  
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2024 2:29 PM
To: Howard, Lee 
Cc: RIPE List 
Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

This message is from an EXTERNAL SENDER - be CAUTIOUS, particularly with links 
and attachments.



folk have been teaching addressingm forwarding, LANs, routing, services 
workshops since 1988.  props to Alvise Nobile of ICTP who organized the first 
workshops.  folk such as the NSRC have vast open source materials and tools to 
teach these things.  no need to reinvent the wheel.

imiho, we need to make some initial scoping on audience.  do we want to target 
tweens and early teens with programming and computer concepts?
or so we want to target older students who have grown up with laptops, the 
internet, and teach networking and services?  or ...

my personal take is that there are a bunch of folk focused on serving the 
younger set and making the next generation of programmers and UI designers.  
and that is not really our main bailiwick.  we should focus on network and 
services engineering.  but i am biased.

to put my money where my mouth is (sorry for another idiom), i volunteer to 
teach basic routing, but need folk to help organise, recruit, ...
and i don't think it is the ncc's role this season, as folk are beating the ncc 
up over budget.

randy

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Aleix]

And I’m not fully awake yet it seems, I change my assumption to have been 
Wolfgang.

> On 6. Feb 2024, at 11:16, Aleix  wrote:
> 
> Hi, I can’t see who said they’d volunteer to teach basic routing, I’ll assume 
> it was Randy given the links provided - I’m Aleix and so far relatively 
> unfamiliar with the workings of RIPE, but want to get into it more. So far I 
> have been to only a couple of events including for example the DNS Hackathon 
> in Rotterdam.
> 
> I’ll absolutely check out the material and I’m very interested in learning 
> more (and I learn fast), but I see that there is something that I can 
> contribute myself as well.
> 
> I’m not entirely clueless when it comes to routing, but not suited to teach 
> it. However, with an existent volunteer teacher - I’ve done some workshop 
> organising (and led some, but these had nothing to do with IT) and I’d know 
> quite well where, how and in some cases even who I’d potentially recruit for 
> a routing workshop or seminar.
> 
> I volunteer to put effort in for organisation and recruitment because when it 
> comes to RIPE, there’s so far not much else I can bring to the table. 
> Depending on the location if it’s not online I could potentially even source 
> a physical place for near free or even really for free.
> 
> If that’s interesting feel free to reach out to me, I’d love to help with 
> this.
> 
> Aleix
> 
>> On 6. Feb 2024, at 02:19, Randy Bush  wrote:
>> 
 to put my money where my mouth is (sorry for another idiom), i
 volunteer to teach basic routing, but need folk to help organise,
 recruit, ...  and i don't think it is the ncc's role this season, as
 folk are beating the ncc up over budget.
 
>>> Need to think about it a bit more. Happy to help. And just to be clear
>>> i dont have anything against hands on stuff with pi-style hardware. We
>>> did a basic networking track at one of the German free software
>>> conferences once with hardware demos. That's pretty cool, but we
>>> should do something networking/Internet related rather than "build
>>> your own puzzle on a RPI". That may imply a more adult audience but I
>>> may underestimate people.
>> 
>> to really freak folk out
>> 
>> the basic routing workshop o know, after being sure everyone knows what
>> a prefix and mask are, does rip using slips of paper.
>> 
>> [ i once tried to build simple routing in second life, but the so called
>> programming language sucks caterpillar snot. ]
>> 
>> randy
>> 
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>> your subscription options, please visit: 
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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Aleix]

Hi, I can’t see who said they’d volunteer to teach basic routing, I’ll assume 
it was Randy given the links provided - I’m Aleix and so far relatively 
unfamiliar with the workings of RIPE, but want to get into it more. So far I 
have been to only a couple of events including for example the DNS Hackathon in 
Rotterdam.

I’ll absolutely check out the material and I’m very interested in learning more 
(and I learn fast), but I see that there is something that I can contribute 
myself as well.

I’m not entirely clueless when it comes to routing, but not suited to teach it. 
However, with an existent volunteer teacher - I’ve done some workshop 
organising (and led some, but these had nothing to do with IT) and I’d know 
quite well where, how and in some cases even who I’d potentially recruit for a 
routing workshop or seminar.

I volunteer to put effort in for organisation and recruitment because when it 
comes to RIPE, there’s so far not much else I can bring to the table. Depending 
on the location if it’s not online I could potentially even source a physical 
place for near free or even really for free.

If that’s interesting feel free to reach out to me, I’d love to help with this.

Aleix

> On 6. Feb 2024, at 02:19, Randy Bush  wrote:
> 
>>> to put my money where my mouth is (sorry for another idiom), i
>>> volunteer to teach basic routing, but need folk to help organise,
>>> recruit, ...  and i don't think it is the ncc's role this season, as
>>> folk are beating the ncc up over budget.
>>> 
>> Need to think about it a bit more. Happy to help. And just to be clear
>> i dont have anything against hands on stuff with pi-style hardware. We
>> did a basic networking track at one of the German free software
>> conferences once with hardware demos. That's pretty cool, but we
>> should do something networking/Internet related rather than "build
>> your own puzzle on a RPI". That may imply a more adult audience but I
>> may underestimate people.
> 
> to really freak folk out
> 
> the basic routing workshop o know, after being sure everyone knows what
> a prefix and mask are, does rip using slips of paper.
> 
> [ i once tried to build simple routing in second life, but the so called
>  programming language sucks caterpillar snot. ]
> 
> randy
> 
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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Wolfgang Tremmel via ripe-list]

Hi,

let me jump in here - I have been doing BGP trainings over the last few years 
and my initial idea was just the same, just give everyone a RaspberryPI. But 
when I tested this (your experience was different from what I read) I spent way 
too much time debugging PI-issues instead of doing BGP.

So back to the drawing board and my BGP training now uses a docker-based 
FRRouting.
Source code for my BGP lab is here: 
https://gitlab.com/de-cix-public/team-academy/bgp/BGPLab
Training materials for BGP (draft!) here: 
https://de-cix-group.gitlab.io/team-academy/bgp/BGP-Seminar-Documentation/ 

Also I recorded some videos about "Networking Basics", all available for free 
here:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_gbuEiuFIEDz1frRh9ctWZzgBBtLUVSP=RttjJxLwc8P20wXs

best regards
Wolfgang


> On 5. Feb 2024, at 19:31, Howard, Lee  wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking about how I might do something similar to teach routing. . 
> .  Have 15 people at three round tables. Each with a few "households" and a 
> router. Discuss subnetting, give them subnets. Configure static routes. Then 
> connect to others at the table, see why dynamic routing is easier, learn 
> OSPF. Day 2, start connecting with other tables: BGP. Security along the way, 
> of course. The "households" might be minihardware designed to accept DHCPv6 
> and ping from a specific address to a specific address and turn green when 
> ping succeeds. Routers might be Bird on something with a handful of ports. I 
> haven't spent much time on it--suggestions welcome.

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Maria Matejka via ripe-list]

Hello!

On 2024-02-05 22:20, Franziska Lichtblau wrote:

imiho, we need to make some initial scoping on audience.  do we want to
target tweens and early teens with programming and computer concepts?
or so we want to target older students who have grown up with laptops,
the internet, and teach networking and services?  or ...

my personal take is that there are a bunch of folk focused on serving
the younger set and making the next generation of programmers and UI
designers.  and that is not really our main bailiwick.  we should focus
on network and services engineering.  but i am biased.


I agree. If we put our energy in this (and this is energy and time consuming) 
we should teach something very specific to our community. Many things are 
already there, we don't need to replicate them in a slightly worse way ;)


What is currently on my table, are two courses, one is a 3-4 days 
hands-on course for networking beginners like "how to become a small 
network admin" (wifi AP setup included) and another one,"how to setup 
your own AS", for like 2-3 days. These are kinda getting some shape.


The thing is, and sorry if this comes out too rude … preparing a good 
course is _very_ time-consuming, so i'm now aiming solely to commercial 
teaching to get the time paid. However, I'm open to collaborations, and 
if there could be some funding to do these courses for free or for an 
affordable amount, I'll very happily accept it.


Maria

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Randy Bush]

>> to put my money where my mouth is (sorry for another idiom), i
>> volunteer to teach basic routing, but need folk to help organise,
>> recruit, ...  and i don't think it is the ncc's role this season, as
>> folk are beating the ncc up over budget.
>>
> Need to think about it a bit more. Happy to help. And just to be clear
> i dont have anything against hands on stuff with pi-style hardware. We
> did a basic networking track at one of the German free software
> conferences once with hardware demos. That's pretty cool, but we
> should do something networking/Internet related rather than "build
> your own puzzle on a RPI". That may imply a more adult audience but I
> may underestimate people.

to really freak folk out

the basic routing workshop o know, after being sure everyone knows what
a prefix and mask are, does rip using slips of paper.

[ i once tried to build simple routing in second life, but the so called
  programming language sucks caterpillar snot. ]

randy

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Franziska Lichtblau]

Thank you Randy, you made the point I was trying to make, but I was probably 
too tired. 

On 5 February 2024 20:29:27 CET, Randy Bush  wrote:
>folk have been teaching addressingm forwarding, LANs, routing, services
>workshops since 1988.  props to Alvise Nobile of ICTP who organized the
>first workshops.  folk such as the NSRC have vast open source materials
>and tools to teach these things.  no need to reinvent the wheel.
>

Exactly, there's lots of stuff already there. And I have seen many people 
starting to go for the problem and underestimating that not actually what to 
teach and with what tools is the hard part. The hard part is framing your 
audience and understand how to teach them.

>imiho, we need to make some initial scoping on audience.  do we want to
>target tweens and early teens with programming and computer concepts?
>or so we want to target older students who have grown up with laptops,
>the internet, and teach networking and services?  or ...
>
>my personal take is that there are a bunch of folk focused on serving
>the younger set and making the next generation of programmers and UI
>designers.  and that is not really our main bailiwick.  we should focus
>on network and services engineering.  but i am biased.
>

I agree. If we put our energy in this (and this is energy and time consuming) 
we should teach something very specific to our community. Many things are 
already there, we don't need to replicate them in a slightly worse way ;)

>to put my money where my mouth is (sorry for another idiom), i volunteer
>to teach basic routing, but need folk to help organise, recruit, ...
>and i don't think it is the ncc's role this season, as folk are beating
>the ncc up over budget.
>
Need to think about it a bit more. Happy to help. And just to be clear i dont 
have anything against hands on stuff with pi-style hardware. We did a basic 
networking track at one of the German free software conferences once with 
hardware demos. That's pretty cool, but we should do something 
networking/Internet related rather than "build your own puzzle on a RPI". That 
may imply a more adult audience but I may underestimate people.

Cheers,
Franziska 

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Randy Bush]

folk have been teaching addressingm forwarding, LANs, routing, services
workshops since 1988.  props to Alvise Nobile of ICTP who organized the
first workshops.  folk such as the NSRC have vast open source materials
and tools to teach these things.  no need to reinvent the wheel.

imiho, we need to make some initial scoping on audience.  do we want to
target tweens and early teens with programming and computer concepts?
or so we want to target older students who have grown up with laptops,
the internet, and teach networking and services?  or ...

my personal take is that there are a bunch of folk focused on serving
the younger set and making the next generation of programmers and UI
designers.  and that is not really our main bailiwick.  we should focus
on network and services engineering.  but i am biased.

to put my money where my mouth is (sorry for another idiom), i volunteer
to teach basic routing, but need folk to help organise, recruit, ...
and i don't think it is the ncc's role this season, as folk are beating
the ncc up over budget.

randy

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Howard, Lee]

Sorry for top-posting. . .

A few years ago I was frustrated at some knowledge gaps on my team, so I put 
together a training workshop that took 3 1/2 days (the first time I did it).

I gave them each a Raspberry Pi. I walked them through boot-up, CLI, files, and 
using iptables to block all IPv4 and using ip6tables to block normal stuff. 
IPv6 addressing and SLAAC, of course.
Bought them each a domain name ($2).
Installed and configured bind as an auth server.
Installed and configured apache and showed them certbot/LetsEncrypt, and 
hand-mangling HTML.
Installed and configured postfix with DKIM and DMARC.
Security throughout, opening up firewall rules for the new services, so we 
learned about UDP and TCP. Along the way, I gradually gave them less detailed 
instructions, so they had to learn how to learn from an online tutorial.
At the end of the training, I had them take HE's IPv6 certification, and of 
course, they'd already completed all the requirements, and got the IPv6 Sage 
T-shirt.

I've been thinking about how I might do something similar to teach routing. . . 
 Have 15 people at three round tables. Each with a few "households" and a 
router. Discuss subnetting, give them subnets. Configure static routes. Then 
connect to others at the table, see why dynamic routing is easier, learn OSPF. 
Day 2, start connecting with other tables: BGP. Security along the way, of 
course. The "households" might be minihardware designed to accept DHCPv6 and 
ping from a specific address to a specific address and turn green when ping 
succeeds. Routers might be Bird on something with a handful of ports. I haven't 
spent much time on it--suggestions welcome.

Taking a setup like this and doing some basic monitoring, then device 
provisioning, with Python or Go, would seem to me the logical next step.

Maybe there's a version of data center management, layering 
cloud/virtualization services over it.

Each of these could be done in less than a week, with breaks and meals. 
Building the classes could take a couple of months each.

I'd love to build and do this, but I still have a day job.

Lee


-Original Message-
From: ripe-list  On Behalf Of Randy Bush
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 5:45 PM
To: Q Misell 
Cc: RIPE List 
Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

This message is from an EXTERNAL SENDER - be CAUTIOUS, particularly with links 
and attachments.



> I think a workshop based format would be best, it's just a matter of
> finding someone willing to teach.

perhaps WHAT to teach will help guide who might teach it.  and that will depend 
a lot on the intended audience.

i am told the fosdem track was geared toward a youngish set, and used, among 
other things, micro:bits using microblocks.  but i am hoping someone who was 
there could speak with more authority.

i am more used to teaching workshops to older entry-level engineers
  - linux/unix boot-camp, how to live on the command line,
install, configure, maintain, ...
  - ip addressing, forwarding, and building a LAN,
  - basic routing, way more basic than philip, like rip and maybe
simple use of is-is,
  - how to install and configure a few services (e.g. mail
and/or dns)
each being a separate full week hands on

but this is far too ambitious to start.  i suggest choosing a well-defined 
audience and one subject, teach it once or twice, and learn from that 
experience.

randy

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Victoria Risk]

> On Feb 5, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Sander Steffann  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> but this is far too ambitious to start.  i suggest choosing a
>> well-defined audience and one subject, teach it once or twice,
>> and learn from that experience.
> 
> I love this idea!
> Sander

I also love the idea. A variation might be, to create some program about how 
the Internet works and what are some of the key topics and issues, give it to 
*teachers*. Perhaps a bit less thrilling to the presenters than working with 
the young people directly, but it could have bigger impact over time.  


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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Sander Steffann]

Hi,

> I also love the idea. A variation might be, to create some program about how 
> the Internet works and what are some of the key topics and issues, give it to 
> *teachers*. Perhaps a bit less thrilling to the presenters than working with 
> the young people directly, but it could have bigger impact over time.  

Speaking from experience: first write it, then test it out a couple of times, 
*then* give it to other teachers :)

Cheers!
Sander


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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Michael J. Oghia]

Hi everyone,

I'm glad to see this topic coming up on the RIPE list, as how to recruit,
welcome, and onboard new community members who may not be familiar with how
RIPE works is certainly a good use of time. Thankfully, it's hardly a new
concern – meaning, there are good resources and communities out there to
assist. One is EuroDIG's youth community, and another is the IGF's Youth
Coalition on Internet Governance (YCIG).

Would RIPE consider adding a youth track? If so, I encourage you to speak
to Sandra, Nadia, and Elisabeth from EuroDIG!

Cheers,
-Michael


On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 3:15 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > Thinking about governance, policy, registry operation I'm not sure how
> that could look like. We could focus on general educational content on
> networking, especially with all the virtualization options we have these
> days there could be fun in that if done right.
>
> A room of RPis would be much more interesting than a virtual setup ;)
>
> Cheers!
> Sander
>
>
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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Sander Steffann]

Hi,

> but this is far too ambitious to start.  i suggest choosing a
> well-defined audience and one subject, teach it once or twice,
> and learn from that experience.

I love this idea!
Sander


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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Sander Steffann]

Hi,

> Thinking about governance, policy, registry operation I'm not sure how that 
> could look like. We could focus on general educational content on networking, 
> especially with all the virtualization options we have these days there could 
> be fun in that if done right.

A room of RPis would be much more interesting than a virtual setup ;)

Cheers!
Sander


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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Hesham ElBakoury]

One idea is to Explain The Cloud Like I'm 10. What do you think?

Hesham

On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 1:16 PM Randy Bush  wrote:

> at ripe and nanog we talk about bringing up the next generation.  at
> fosdem they're doing it.
>
> a good friend reports that fosdem has a junior track this year.  they
> brought their tweens to it, and it was great!  very hands on.  vesna or
> other fosdem attendees, did you look in on the junior track?
>
> so what would be a junior program for ripe or nanog?
>
> randy
>
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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Franziska Lichtblau]

On 3 February 2024 20:44:15 CET, Randy Bush  wrote:
>at ripe and nanog we talk about bringing up the next generation.  at
>fosdem they're doing it.
>
>a good friend reports that fosdem has a junior track this year.  they
>brought their tweens to it, and it was great!  very hands on.  vesna or
>other fosdem attendees, did you look in on the junior track?

I couldn't make it this year, but here's the link for everyone who wants to 
have a look.

https://fosdem.org/2024/schedule/track/junior/

>so what would be a junior program for ripe or nanog?
>
That is a very good question. At fosdem or other broadly oriented tech 
conferences the junior tracks specifically offer topics kids and teenagers are 
interested in and get them hands on with programming, building stuff etc. 
Given us as a community based on keeping the open and free Internet running as 
well as our professional interests I find it not straight forward how to 
interest a young generation / age group in that.

I've seen with many of my former students that once they got a glimpse on how 
the Internet is being run they were quite intrigued and motivated to learn. But 
much of that wasn't really hands on - sure hardware labs were always a good 
motivation. 

Thinking about governance, policy, registry operation I'm not sure how that 
could look like. We could focus on general educational content on networking, 
especially with all the virtualization options we have these days there could 
be fun in that if done right.

Given that we already have a hard time getting a steadily high influx of "new 
generation" contributing community members, thinking about younger age groups 
is even more difficult. 

Maybe some people in our community with young kids could give us an idea on 
what could be inspiring for them within our topics?

Curious about ideas there.

Best,
Franziska 

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Randy Bush]

> I think a workshop based format would be best, it's just a matter of
> finding someone willing to teach.

perhaps WHAT to teach will help guide who might teach it.  and
that will depend a lot on the intended audience.  

i am told the fosdem track was geared toward a youngish set, and
used, among other things, micro:bits using microblocks.  but i
am hoping someone who was there could speak with more authority.

i am more used to teaching workshops to older entry-level
engineers
  - linux/unix boot-camp, how to live on the command line,
install, configure, maintain, ...
  - ip addressing, forwarding, and building a LAN,
  - basic routing, way more basic than philip, like rip and maybe
simple use of is-is,
  - how to install and configure a few services (e.g. mail
and/or dns)
each being a separate full week hands on

but this is far too ambitious to start.  i suggest choosing a
well-defined audience and one subject, teach it once or twice,
and learn from that experience.

randy

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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Dan Lowe]

On Sat, Feb 3, 2024, at 2:44 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
> at ripe and nanog we talk about bringing up the next generation.  at
> fosdem they're doing it.

This topic came up on stage (and in the hallways, based on what I overheard) at 
NAF's Autocon 0 in November. There, I heard about CS grads who had come out of 
a 4-year program knowing so little about networks that they could not describe 
the relationship between an IP address and a netmask, or explain in broad 
strokes the function of a router. (Same story with coding bootcamps.) On the 
other side, network engineers can obtain certifications that cover zero 
software development ideas.

The central question of that conference was why networks are not being 
automated in the same way that systems have been for quite a while now, and 
some folks pointed a finger in the direction of education. You can't create 
effective automation or orchestration without creating some software (or at 
minimum fancy scripts), and their point was that there's very little crossover, 
educationally, between software developers and network engineers.

At $DAYJOB, I run a team that works on various automation processes for the 
network, and I concur. When I'm hiring, I need to find people who can 
competently write and maintain software, but who also understand network 
concepts and ideally even how to interact with actual routers. They aren't as 
easy to find as I'd like.

Dan

PS: Incidentally for this audience, NAF (Network Automation Forum) is holding 
Autocon 1 in Europe at the end of May.
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Re: [ripe-list] RIPEng

[Q Misell via ripe-list]

> so what would be a junior program for ripe or nanog?

This sounds excellent, we definitely need more young people involved in
RIPE. Although I suspect this may result in a noticeable increase in
personal ASN registrations, not that that's an issue.

I think a workshop based format would be best, it's just a matter of
finding someone willing to teach.
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On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 at 21:16, Randy Bush  wrote:

> at ripe and nanog we talk about bringing up the next generation.  at
> fosdem they're doing it.
>
> a good friend reports that fosdem has a junior track this year.  they
> brought their tweens to it, and it was great!  very hands on.  vesna or
> other fosdem attendees, did you look in on the junior track?
>
> so what would be a junior program for ripe or nanog?
>
> randy
>
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> your subscription options, please visit:
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>


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