Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

2010-04-11 Thread Bertrand Grottier

Hello,
Thank you for your answer and experience feedback.
Your explanations are very clear.
Regards,
Benoît

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:59:28 -0700
From: greg_bar...@yahoo.com
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

It matters on the nature of the processing.  Rules are useful when the 
algorithm involves iterative change, i.e. a rule fires, changing the data, 
which cause another rule to fire, changing the dataetc until a resting 
state has been reached.  

They're also useful if you want to handle odd cases, or global constraints, 
especially if these can directly affect the data driven processing.  This is 
what I was talking about when I said "you can do both" below.  Let's say your 
"data driven approach" involves generating the pricing rules from the data. 
(Instead of having generalized rules that act on inserted objects.)  Using this 
approach you (or the business folk) could then define other rules that execute 
alongside the generated ones for both conditions that don't follow the pattern 
of the generated rules, and global conditions
 that affect all price calculation.  This is like mixing decision tables and 
hand written rules together, a rather common practice.

That make sense?


Including a BRMS is warranted when 1) there's going to be change, and 2) funky 
processing is anticipated.  In my experience both cases are frequent.  The 
marketing folks always come by and say, "can your system handle this promotion 
we want to do?" :)

--- On Fri, 4/9/10, Bertrand Grottier  wrote:

From: Bertrand Grottier 
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Date: Friday, April 9, 2010, 10:29 AM




Hello

I am coming back to this post with new a piece of information regarding the 
number of rules: this latter may attain 5 * 10^5... This figure confirms the a 
"data driven approach".

However, if I represent "business rules" using facts, is there really an added 
value in using a brms ? (compared to a hard-coded component).

Thank you in advance for yours answers.

Regards,

Benoît

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:44:09 -0700
From: greg_bar...@yahoo.com
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

The answer to whether this is a good approach is, "It depends." :)

Does the 10^4 and 10^5 figure mean there could be that many rules?  If so, 
definitely do the data driven approach.

If not, will business folk (i.e. non technical) will be
 writing pricing rules?  If so, do the rules based approach as data driven 
rules are generally less understandable by business types. (They're a bit more 
abstract and influenced by the structure of your data model.  Business people 
should not have to deal with either abstraction or the implementation details 
of a data model.) 

There's no reason why you can't do both, though.  

--- On Wed, 4/7/10, Bertrand Grottier  wrote:

From:
 Bertrand Grottier 
Subject: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010, 9:23 AM




Hello,

I am a newbie with business rules systems.

I would like to implement a component that "compute" the price of products. 
There can be a great number of potential prices (maybe 10^4 or 10^5).

My first idea was to create template rules, "feeded" by a database. In other 
words, the information about prices would be contained in the rules.

Eventually, I decided to create Prices objects, that are also inserted in the 
Knowledge session (Prices become facts). The rule engine just "matches" the 
appropriate price object with each product (there are other rules then to 
compute the final price).

Price

{

_productId ;

_beginDate ;

_endDate ;



_price ;

}



Product

{

_id ;

_date ;

...

_

}


Are my explanations clear enough ?

Is this a good approach or is it stupid ? Why ? What are the good practices ?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Benoît


  
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Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

2010-04-09 Thread Greg Barton
It matters on the nature of the processing.  Rules are useful when the 
algorithm involves iterative change, i.e. a rule fires, changing the data, 
which cause another rule to fire, changing the dataetc until a resting 
state has been reached.  

They're also useful if you want to handle odd cases, or global constraints, 
especially if these can directly affect the data driven processing.  This is 
what I was talking about when I said "you can do both" below.  Let's say your 
"data driven approach" involves generating the pricing rules from the data. 
(Instead of having generalized rules that act on inserted objects.)  Using this 
approach you (or the business folk) could then define other rules that execute 
alongside the generated ones for both conditions that don't follow the pattern 
of the generated rules, and global conditions that affect all price 
calculation.  This is like mixing decision tables and hand written rules 
together, a rather common practice.

That make sense?

Including a BRMS is warranted when 1) there's going to be change, and 2) funky 
processing is anticipated.  In my experience both cases are frequent.  The 
marketing folks always come by and say, "can your system handle this promotion 
we want to do?" :)

--- On Fri, 4/9/10, Bertrand Grottier  wrote:

From: Bertrand Grottier 
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Date: Friday, April 9, 2010, 10:29 AM




Hello

I am coming back to this post with new a piece of information regarding the 
number of rules: this latter may attain 5 * 10^5... This figure confirms the a 
"data driven approach".

However, if I represent "business rules" using facts, is there really an added 
value in using a brms ? (compared to a hard-coded component).

Thank you in advance for yours answers.

Regards,

Benoît

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:44:09 -0700
From: greg_bar...@yahoo.com
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

The answer to whether this is a good approach is, "It depends." :)

Does the 10^4 and 10^5 figure mean there could be that many rules?  If so, 
definitely do the data driven approach.

If not, will business folk (i.e. non technical) will be writing pricing rules?  
If so, do the rules based approach as data driven rules are generally less 
understandable by business types. (They're a bit more abstract and influenced 
by the structure of your data model.  Business people should not have to deal 
with either abstraction or the implementation details of a data model.) 

There's no reason why you can't do both, though.  

--- On Wed, 4/7/10, Bertrand Grottier  wrote:

From:
 Bertrand Grottier 
Subject: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010, 9:23 AM




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{padding:0px;}
#yiv69327948 .ExternalClass #ecxyiv1286396095 .ecxhmmessage
{font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

Hello,

I am a newbie with business rules systems.

I would like to implement a component that "compute" the price of products. 
There can be a great number of potential prices (maybe 10^4 or 10^5).

My first idea was to create template rules, "feeded" by a database. In other 
words, the information about prices would be contained in the rules.

Eventually, I decided to create Prices objects, that are also inserted in the 
Knowledge session (Prices become facts). The rule engine just "matches" the 
appropriate price object with each product (there are other rules then to 
compute the final price).

Price

{

_productId ;

_beginDate ;

_endDate ;



_price ;

}



Product

{

_id ;

_date ;

...

_

}


Are my explanations clear enough ?

Is this a good approach or is it stupid ? Why ? What are the good practices ?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Benoît


  
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Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

2010-04-09 Thread Bertrand Grottier

Hello

I am coming back to this post with new a piece of information regarding the 
number of rules: this latter may attain 5 * 10^5... This figure confirms the a 
"data driven approach".

However, if I represent "business rules" using facts, is there really an added 
value in using a brms ? (compared to a hard-coded component).

Thank you in advance for yours answers.

Regards,

Benoît

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:44:09 -0700
From: greg_bar...@yahoo.com
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

The answer to whether this is a good approach is, "It depends." :)

Does the 10^4 and 10^5 figure mean there could be that many rules?  If so, 
definitely do the data driven approach.

If not, will business folk (i.e. non technical) will be writing pricing rules?  
If so, do the rules based approach as data driven rules are generally less 
understandable by business types. (They're a bit more abstract and influenced 
by the structure of your data model.  Business people should not have to deal 
with either abstraction or the implementation details of a data model.) 

There's no reason why you can't do both, though.  

--- On Wed, 4/7/10, Bertrand Grottier  wrote:

From:
 Bertrand Grottier 
Subject: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010, 9:23 AM




Hello,

I am a newbie with business rules systems.

I would like to implement a component that "compute" the price of products. 
There can be a great number of potential prices (maybe 10^4 or 10^5).

My first idea was to create template rules, "feeded" by a database. In other 
words, the information about prices would be contained in the rules.

Eventually, I decided to create Prices objects, that are also inserted in the 
Knowledge session (Prices become facts). The rule engine just "matches" the 
appropriate price object with each product (there are other rules then to 
compute the final price).

Price

{

_productId ;

_beginDate ;

_endDate ;



_price ;

}



Product

{

_id ;

_date ;

...

_

}


Are my explanations clear enough ?

Is this a good approach or is it stupid ? Why ? What are the good practices ?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Benoît


  
Envie de naviguer sur Internet sans laisser de trace? La solution avec Internet 
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[rules-users] Facts or rules ?

2010-04-07 Thread Bertrand Grottier



Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:44:09 -0700
From: greg_bar...@yahoo.com
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

>The answer to whether this is a good approach is, "It depends." :)
As usual :-)


>Does the 10^4 and 10^5 figure mean there could be that many rules?  If so, 
>definitely do the data driven approach.
These figures will be refined soon but yes, there could be that many rules.



>If not, will business folk (i.e. non technical) will be writing pricing rules? 
> If so, do the rules based approach as data driven rules are >generally less 
>understandable by business types. (They're a bit more abstract and influenced 
>by the structure of your data model.  >Business people should not have to deal 
>with either abstraction or the implementation details of a data model.) 

>There's no reason why you can't do both, though.  
Ok.



  
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Re: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?

2010-04-07 Thread Greg Barton
The answer to whether this is a good approach is, "It depends." :)

Does the 10^4 and 10^5 figure mean there could be that many rules?  If so, 
definitely do the data driven approach.

If not, will business folk (i.e. non technical) will be writing pricing rules?  
If so, do the rules based approach as data driven rules are generally less 
understandable by business types. (They're a bit more abstract and influenced 
by the structure of your data model.  Business people should not have to deal 
with either abstraction or the implementation details of a data model.) 

There's no reason why you can't do both, though.  

--- On Wed, 4/7/10, Bertrand Grottier  wrote:

From: Bertrand Grottier 
Subject: [rules-users] Facts or rules ?
To: rules-users@lists.jboss.org
Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010, 9:23 AM




Hello,

I am a newbie with business rules systems.

I would like to implement a component that "compute" the price of products. 
There can be a great number of potential prices (maybe 10^4 or 10^5).

My first idea was to create template rules, "feeded" by a database. In other 
words, the information about prices would be contained in the rules.

Eventually, I decided to create Prices objects, that are also inserted in the 
Knowledge session (Prices become facts). The rule engine just "matches" the 
appropriate price object with each product (there are other rules then to 
compute the final price).

Price

{

_productId ;

_beginDate ;

_endDate ;



_price ;

}



Product

{

_id ;

_date ;

...

_

}


Are my explanations clear enough ?

Is this a good approach or is it stupid ? Why ? What are the good practices ?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Benoît


  
Envie de naviguer sur Internet sans laisser de trace? La solution avec Internet 
Explorer 8 

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[rules-users] Facts or rules ?

2010-04-07 Thread Bertrand Grottier

Hello,

I am a newbie with business rules systems.

I would like to implement a component that "compute" the price of products. 
There can be a great number of potential prices (maybe 10^4 or 10^5).

My first idea was to create template rules, "feeded" by a database. In other 
words, the information about prices would be contained in the rules.

Eventually, I decided to create Prices objects, that are also inserted in the 
Knowledge session (Prices become facts). The rule engine just "matches" the 
appropriate price object with each product (there are other rules then to 
compute the final price).

Price

{

_productId ;

_beginDate ;

_endDate ;



_price ;

}



Product

{

_id ;

_date ;

...

_

}


Are my explanations clear enough ?

Is this a good approach or is it stupid ? Why ? What are the good practices ?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Benoît


  
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