Re: [sage-devel] Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 14 January 2024 23:21:51 GMT, Matthias Koeppe  
wrote:
>On Sunday, January 14, 2024 at 1:50:04 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>PS. The question whether an attempt to sneak the NumFocus application 
>through the back door without a proper community consultation is a 
>violation of our CoC is left as a homework for the readers.
>
>
>Thanks for sharing this exercise. Yes, to understand what a Code of Conduct 
>is about, one first has to understand what "conduct" is. Spoilers: 
>https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/36726#issuecomment-1872236857

Well, we see very well how you conduct yourself.
You gaslight reviewers until they lose temper and then you shout "Gevalt! 
Abuse! CoC violation!" over and over again. Try something different, maybe.


>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/866E4439-A648-402D-8607-739586F59022%40gmail.com.

Re: [sage-devel] Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Sunday, January 14, 2024 at 1:50:04 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

PS. The question whether an attempt to sneak the NumFocus application 
through the back door without a proper community consultation is a 
violation of our CoC is left as a homework for the readers.


Thanks for sharing this exercise. Yes, to understand what a Code of Conduct 
is about, one first has to understand what "conduct" is. Spoilers: 
https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/36726#issuecomment-1872236857

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/d7c7a528-3414-4207-a74b-44efb31bf18dn%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [sage-devel] Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[Dima Pasechnik]

I already pointed out that our project will certainly benefit from being more 
like successful Python systems, e.g. how they don't vendor compilers and a good 
portion of PyPI packages.

CoCs are a nice cherry on the tart, yes.

PS. The question whether an attempt to sneak the NumFocus application through 
the back door without a proper community consultation is a violation of our CoC 
is left as a homework for the readers.


On 14 January 2024 17:44:06 GMT, Matthias Koeppe  
wrote:
>On Sunday, January 14, 2024 at 9:07:07 AM UTC-8 David Roe wrote:
>
>Is there any reason for the quick turnaround time?
>
>
>Yes, it is motivated by the current crisis of abuse and misconduct in the 
>community.
>Our project will benefit from engaging closely with projects and 
>organizations that have working CoC with clear enforcement protocols. 
>https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct, 
>https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct/response-and-enforcement-events-meetups, 
>https://numpy.org/code-of-conduct/, 
>https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/dev/conduct/code_of_conduct.html
>
>-- 
>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>"sage-devel" group.
>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>To view this discussion on the web visit 
>https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/26be11e0-75aa-472e-b594-3dd234107f52n%40googlegroups.com.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/0F11CC36-04AD-440E-946E-44007EAFF8C4%40gmail.com.

Re: [sage-devel] Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Sunday, January 14, 2024 at 9:07:07 AM UTC-8 David Roe wrote:

Is there any reason for the quick turnaround time?


Yes, it is motivated by the current crisis of abuse and misconduct in the 
community.
Our project will benefit from engaging closely with projects and 
organizations that have working CoC with clear enforcement protocols. 
https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct, 
https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct/response-and-enforcement-events-meetups, 
https://numpy.org/code-of-conduct/, 
https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/dev/conduct/code_of_conduct.html

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/26be11e0-75aa-472e-b594-3dd234107f52n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [sage-devel] Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[David Roe]

I agree with Dima that 2 days is not enough time to gather feedback.  Is
there any reason for the quick turnaround time?
David
P.S. I'm sorry about disappearing from the other thread about disputed
PRs.  I will try to summarize the discussion on that thread and call for a
vote shortly.

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 8:55 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> Over the years, it has been suggested that our project seek affiliation
> with the NumFocus organization (https://numfocus.org/)
>
> *2016:* E.M. Bray asks in
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/8-BfX8KxFuI/m/CQRmz_3vDQAJ:  Is
> there any particular objection about approaching NumFOCUS [...]? (there is
> no objection or any response for that matter)
>
> *2018: *E.M. Bray's 2018 sage-devel post (
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/aY0GVqBwFkI/m/cTqfaBN5AQAJ)
> gives a great overview on benefits for us and the difference between
> "Affiliated projects" and "Sponsored projects"; in the same thread, D.V.
> Pasechnik reports having been put in charge of co-leading it by William,
> but notes his reservations about CoC; Jason Grout reports having given
> NumFOCUS people a heads-up.
>
> *2019:* V. Delecroix brings up NumFOCUS (
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/sGFOYBeEq-Q/m/NUCfS2zhAQAJ), S.
> Lelievre points to the 2018 post, E.M. Bray follows up with a discussion of
> questions of governance.
>
> *2022:* D.V. Pasechnik notes that the NumFOCUS effort "appears to be
> stalled".
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/G7qZkzjWDZU/m/MgrEqTqJAQAJ
>
> *As of today, 2024,* in my opinion, SageMath is clearly not able to meet
> the additional requirements of a NumFOCUS Sponsored Project (
> https://numfocus.org/projects-overview): "A transparent, publicly visible
> governance model" (), "A roadmap outlining high priority work areas"
> (although my modularization project provides
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/29705 provides a viable candidate
> for > 50% of it).
>
> *But we can easily apply to become a NumFOCUS Affiliated Project; it's 21
> easy questions in a slightly awkward web form (*
> https://numfocus.typeform.com/to/VUPE35?typeform-source=numfocus.org)*.
> The next deadline is Monday January 15*, and I will turn in an
> application on behalf of the project unless I hear serious, qualified
> objections.
>
> Below are my draft responses to the 21 questions; any suggestions and
> corrections are very welcome.
>
> 
> Question 1
> Does your project have a contributor Code of Conduct?
> *Yes*
>
> Question 2
> What is the name of your project?
>
> *SageMath*
> Question 3
> Please provide the url of your project's (primary) repo:
>
> *https://github.com/sagemath/sage *
> Question 4
> Your project's website:
>
> *https://www.sagemath.org/ *
> Question 5
> Please provide a summary description of your project in a few sentences:
> *Comprehensive mathematical software system*
>
> Question 6
> Does your project have a logo?
>
> *Yes*
>
> Question 7
> Please upload a .svg file of your project's logo. A "square" format is
> best.
> *982721.png*
>
> Question 8
> Your project's Twitter handle or other social media handles/urls:
> *https://twitter.com/sagemath ,
> https://mathstodon.xyz/@sagemath , *
> *https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sage-Math/26593144945
> , *
> Question 9
> Why do you want your project to join NumFOCUS?
> *TBD*
>
> Question 10
> Are you applying for Fiscal Sponsorship or Affiliation? For more
> information, see https://numfocus.org/projects-overview
>
> *B. affiliation*
> Question 11
> How does your project relate to or integrate with the existing ecosystem
> of NumFOCUS tools?
> *Cython, CVXpy, igraph, IPython, Jupyter, Matplotlib, NetworkX, NumPy,
> SciPy, SymPy are dependencies of SageMath. Additionally, volunteers
> maintain conda-forge packaging of SageMath.*
>
> Question 12
> Describe how your project furthers the NumFOCUS mission:
> https://numfocus.org/community/mission
> *SageMath is mathematical software with an integration mission. *
>
> Question 13
> How many active contributors does your project currently have?
>
> *70*
> Question 14
> Any comments you’d like to make on the number of your active contributors:
>
> *as per
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/graphs/contributors?from=2023-02-09&to=2024-01-13&type=c
> *
> Question 15
> What is your project doing to attract and/or mentor new contributors and
> maintainers?
>
> *Organize virtual and in-person workshops, participate in Google Summer of
> Code*
> Question 16
> Where do you host conversations about project development and governance
> (e.g. mailing lists, forums, etc.), and how many participants do you have?
>
> *https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel
> 

[sage-devel] Re: Disputed Pull Requests / Role Sage-Abuse and the Code of Conduct

[Volker Braun]

On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 1:19:52 PM UTC-5 Matthias Koeppe wrote:

I think we need to know at least some rough indication on the intended 
timeline of this proposed process.


My offer would be that I get it started (i.e. serve as the editor on the 
first batch of disputed tickets). Others will take over in the future if 
need be (though ideally its not needed, of course)

The timeline is then 1) editor makes decision to approve or decline and 2) 
done! 

Note: I'm on holiday this week

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/00bbf9d6-25a4-4126-a787-ce302425b0afn%40googlegroups.com.

[sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[Dima Pasechnik]

To add more details on the history of the (non) application,
during OpenDreamKit years, and after,
the intention was to use a to be 
established European branch of NumFocus, hence the endless delays
The branch didn't get established, as far as I know.

Dima
On Sunday, January 14, 2024 at 1:55:29 AM UTC Matthias Koeppe wrote:

> Over the years, it has been suggested that our project seek affiliation 
> with the NumFocus organization (https://numfocus.org/)
>
> *2016:* E.M. Bray asks in 
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/8-BfX8KxFuI/m/CQRmz_3vDQAJ:  Is 
> there any particular objection about approaching NumFOCUS [...]? (there is 
> no objection or any response for that matter)
>
> *2018: *E.M. Bray's 2018 sage-devel post (
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/aY0GVqBwFkI/m/cTqfaBN5AQAJ) 
> gives a great overview on benefits for us and the difference between 
> "Affiliated projects" and "Sponsored projects"; in the same thread, D.V. 
> Pasechnik reports having been put in charge of co-leading it by William, 
> but notes his reservations about CoC; Jason Grout reports having given 
> NumFOCUS people a heads-up.
>
> *2019:* V. Delecroix brings up NumFOCUS (
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/sGFOYBeEq-Q/m/NUCfS2zhAQAJ), S. 
> Lelievre points to the 2018 post, E.M. Bray follows up with a discussion of 
> questions of governance.
>
> *2022:* D.V. Pasechnik notes that the NumFOCUS effort "appears to be 
> stalled". 
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/G7qZkzjWDZU/m/MgrEqTqJAQAJ
>
> *As of today, 2024,* in my opinion, SageMath is clearly not able to meet 
> the additional requirements of a NumFOCUS Sponsored Project (
> https://numfocus.org/projects-overview): "A transparent, publicly visible 
> governance model" (), "A roadmap outlining high priority work areas" 
> (although my modularization project provides 
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/29705 provides a viable candidate 
> for > 50% of it).
>
> *But we can easily apply to become a NumFOCUS Affiliated Project; it's 21 
> easy questions in a slightly awkward web form (*
> https://numfocus.typeform.com/to/VUPE35?typeform-source=numfocus.org)*. 
> The next deadline is Monday January 15*, and I will turn in an 
> application on behalf of the project unless I hear serious, qualified 
> objections.
>
> Below are my draft responses to the 21 questions; any suggestions and 
> corrections are very welcome.
>
> 
> Question 1
> Does your project have a contributor Code of Conduct?
> *Yes*
>
> Question 2
> What is the name of your project?
>
> *SageMath*
> Question 3
> Please provide the url of your project's (primary) repo:
>
> *https://github.com/sagemath/sage *
> Question 4
> Your project's website:
>
> *https://www.sagemath.org/ *
> Question 5
> Please provide a summary description of your project in a few sentences:
> *Comprehensive mathematical software system*
>
> Question 6
> Does your project have a logo?
>
> *Yes*
>
> Question 7
> Please upload a .svg file of your project's logo. A "square" format is 
> best.
> *982721.png*
>
> Question 8
> Your project's Twitter handle or other social media handles/urls:
> *https://twitter.com/sagemath , 
> https://mathstodon.xyz/@sagemath , *
> *https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sage-Math/26593144945 
> , *
> Question 9
> Why do you want your project to join NumFOCUS?
> *TBD*
>
> Question 10
> Are you applying for Fiscal Sponsorship or Affiliation? For more 
> information, see https://numfocus.org/projects-overview
>
> *B. affiliation*
> Question 11
> How does your project relate to or integrate with the existing ecosystem 
> of NumFOCUS tools?
> *Cython, CVXpy, igraph, IPython, Jupyter, Matplotlib, NetworkX, NumPy, 
> SciPy, SymPy are dependencies of SageMath. Additionally, volunteers 
> maintain conda-forge packaging of SageMath.*
>
> Question 12
> Describe how your project furthers the NumFOCUS mission: 
> https://numfocus.org/community/mission
> *SageMath is mathematical software with an integration mission. *
>
> Question 13
> How many active contributors does your project currently have?
>
> *70*
> Question 14
> Any comments you’d like to make on the number of your active contributors:
>
> *as per 
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/graphs/contributors?from=2023-02-09&to=2024-01-13&type=c
>  
> *
> Question 15
> What is your project doing to attract and/or mentor new contributors and 
> maintainers?
>
> *Organize virtual and in-person workshops, participate in Google Summer of 
> Code*
> Question 16
> Where do you host conversations about project development and governance 
> (e.g. mailing lists, forums, etc.), and how many participants do you have?
>
> *https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel 
> 

Re: [sage-devel] Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[Dima Pasechnik]

The time scale is too tight for people who don't work on weekends (or don't 
work on Sage 5 days a week) to react, this is the main objection.

I think this needs more discussion, more detailed than just TBD, TBD proposal, 
and can wait for the next round, on April 15.

There are a number of things to check and improve, in order not to get hit by 
something like absence of licencing info on every repo in our GitHub org, 
contact persons data not easy to find, etc.

There would still be time to get the governance in better shape, write a 
roadmap, and go for the sponsored status, if possible.

Dima


On 14 January 2024 01:55:29 GMT, Matthias Koeppe  
wrote:
>Over the years, it has been suggested that our project seek affiliation 
>with the NumFocus organization (https://numfocus.org/)
>
>*2016:* E.M. Bray asks in 
>https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/8-BfX8KxFuI/m/CQRmz_3vDQAJ:  Is 
>there any particular objection about approaching NumFOCUS [...]? (there is 
>no objection or any response for that matter)
>
>*2018: *E.M. Bray's 2018 sage-devel post 
>(https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/aY0GVqBwFkI/m/cTqfaBN5AQAJ) gives 
>a great overview on benefits for us and the difference between "Affiliated 
>projects" and "Sponsored projects"; in the same thread, D.V. Pasechnik 
>reports having been put in charge of co-leading it by William, but notes 
>his reservations about CoC; Jason Grout reports having given NumFOCUS 
>people a heads-up.
>
>*2019:* V. Delecroix brings up NumFOCUS 
>(https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/sGFOYBeEq-Q/m/NUCfS2zhAQAJ), S. 
>Lelievre points to the 2018 post, E.M. Bray follows up with a discussion of 
>questions of governance.
>
>*2022:* D.V. Pasechnik notes that the NumFOCUS effort "appears to be 
>stalled". https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/G7qZkzjWDZU/m/MgrEqTqJAQAJ
>
>*As of today, 2024,* in my opinion, SageMath is clearly not able to meet 
>the additional requirements of a NumFOCUS Sponsored Project 
>(https://numfocus.org/projects-overview): "A transparent, publicly visible 
>governance model" (), "A roadmap outlining high priority work areas" 
>(although my modularization project 
>provides https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/29705 provides a viable 
>candidate for > 50% of it).
>
>*But we can easily apply to become a NumFOCUS Affiliated Project; it's 21 
>easy questions in a slightly awkward web form (*
>https://numfocus.typeform.com/to/VUPE35?typeform-source=numfocus.org)*. The 
>next deadline is Monday January 15*, and I will turn in an application on 
>behalf of the project unless I hear serious, qualified objections.
>
>Below are my draft responses to the 21 questions; any suggestions and 
>corrections are very welcome.
>
>
>Question 1
>Does your project have a contributor Code of Conduct?
>*Yes*
>
>Question 2
>What is the name of your project?
>
>*SageMath*
>Question 3
>Please provide the url of your project's (primary) repo:
>
>*https://github.com/sagemath/sage*
>Question 4
>Your project's website:
>
>*https://www.sagemath.org/*
>Question 5
>Please provide a summary description of your project in a few sentences:
>*Comprehensive mathematical software system*
>
>Question 6
>Does your project have a logo?
>
>*Yes*
>
>Question 7
>Please upload a .svg file of your project's logo. A "square" format is best.
>*982721.png*
>
>Question 8
>Your project's Twitter handle or other social media handles/urls:
>*https://twitter.com/sagemath, https://mathstodon.xyz/@sagemath, *
>*https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sage-Math/26593144945, *
>Question 9
>Why do you want your project to join NumFOCUS?
>*TBD*
>
>Question 10
>Are you applying for Fiscal Sponsorship or Affiliation? For more 
>information, see https://numfocus.org/projects-overview
>
>*B. affiliation*
>Question 11
>How does your project relate to or integrate with the existing ecosystem of 
>NumFOCUS tools?
>*Cython, CVXpy, igraph, IPython, Jupyter, Matplotlib, NetworkX, NumPy, 
>SciPy, SymPy are dependencies of SageMath. Additionally, volunteers 
>maintain conda-forge packaging of SageMath.*
>
>Question 12
>Describe how your project furthers the NumFOCUS 
>mission: https://numfocus.org/community/mission
>*SageMath is mathematical software with an integration mission. *
>
>Question 13
>How many active contributors does your project currently have?
>
>*70*
>Question 14
>Any comments you’d like to make on the number of your active contributors:
>
>*as per 
>https://github.com/sagemath/sage/graphs/contributors?from=2023-02-09&to=2024-01-13&type=c*
>Question 15
>What is your project doing to attract and/or mentor new contributors and 
>maintainers?
>
>*Organize virtual and in-person workshops, participate in Google Summer of 
>Code*
>Question 16
>Where do you host conversations about project development and governance 
>(e.g. mailing lists, forums, etc.), and how many participants do you have?
>
>*https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel, TBD participants*
>Question 17
>What license(s) does your proj