Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[David Roe]

I will delete any messages to this thread in the next week.  I encourage
people who have not yet engaged to think about the issue and see if they
have a compromise to suggest.
David

On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:24 PM G. M.-S.  wrote:

>
> Hi all.
>
> I would like to ask for a moratorium of at least 1 month on this
> discussion, as it is leading nowhere.  As a corollary, no changes on
> anything related to it for the time being.
>
> I would also like to ask if anybody could enforce this moratorium.
>
> And in addition I would like to take the occasion to thank everybody
> involved in SageMath, which is a wonderful project.
>
> Repeating an evidence, all of you are important.
>
> Best,
>
> Guillermo
>
> On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 21:59, G. M.-S.  wrote:
>
>>
>> Dima and Matthias,
>>
>> I completely agree with Nils.
>>
>> Could you (both of you) take a short vacation from SageMath, please?
>>
>> More globally, I propose to stop this discussion completely for a few
>> days.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Guillermo
>>
>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 21:14, Nils Bruin  wrote:
>>
>>> @dima, @matthias : this public forum is not an appropriate venue to
>>> discuss personal disagreements. From what you both write I get the
>>> impression you actually have a lot of common ground and only a few
>>> differences in opinion, but that personalities and discussion styles
>>> exaggerate the disagreements. I hope a moderator steps in to warn you about
>>> code of conduct and making discussions personal. In the mean time, stepping
>>> back and let things cool down is probably the better thing to do, since I
>>> don't see a positive outcome from continuing your current back-and-forth,
>>> and it's toxic for other people following the thread to be confronted by
>>> such discord between respected members of the community.
>>>
>>
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[G. M.-S.]

Hi all.

I would like to ask for a moratorium of at least 1 month on this
discussion, as it is leading nowhere.  As a corollary, no changes on
anything related to it for the time being.

I would also like to ask if anybody could enforce this moratorium.

And in addition I would like to take the occasion to thank everybody
involved in SageMath, which is a wonderful project.

Repeating an evidence, all of you are important.

Best,

Guillermo

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 21:59, G. M.-S.  wrote:

>
> Dima and Matthias,
>
> I completely agree with Nils.
>
> Could you (both of you) take a short vacation from SageMath, please?
>
> More globally, I propose to stop this discussion completely for a few days.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Guillermo
>
> On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 21:14, Nils Bruin  wrote:
>
>> @dima, @matthias : this public forum is not an appropriate venue to
>> discuss personal disagreements. From what you both write I get the
>> impression you actually have a lot of common ground and only a few
>> differences in opinion, but that personalities and discussion styles
>> exaggerate the disagreements. I hope a moderator steps in to warn you about
>> code of conduct and making discussions personal. In the mean time, stepping
>> back and let things cool down is probably the better thing to do, since I
>> don't see a positive outcome from continuing your current back-and-forth,
>> and it's toxic for other people following the thread to be confronted by
>> such discord between respected members of the community.
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[John H Palmieri]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 12:59:54 PM UTC-7 G. M.-S. wrote:


Dima and Matthias,

I completely agree with Nils.

Could you (both of you) take a short vacation from SageMath, please?

More globally, I propose to stop this discussion completely for a few days.


+100

It's time for this discussion to stop.

 

Thanks in advance.

Guillermo

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 21:14, Nils Bruin  wrote:

@dima, @matthias : this public forum is not an appropriate venue to discuss 
personal disagreements. From what you both write I get the impression you 
actually have a lot of common ground and only a few differences in opinion, 
but that personalities and discussion styles exaggerate the disagreements. 
I hope a moderator steps in to warn you about code of conduct and making 
discussions personal. In the mean time, stepping back and let things cool 
down is probably the better thing to do, since I don't see a positive 
outcome from continuing your current back-and-forth, and it's toxic for 
other people following the thread to be confronted by such discord between 
respected members of the community.

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.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[kcrisman]

Anyway, we need you.  Both of you.



+1 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[G. M.-S.]

Hi, you managed to make me laugh…  Thanks.

Anyway, we need you.  Both of you.

Best,

Guillermo

On Wed, 31 May 2023 at 02:17, Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> Hi Guillermo,
>
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 12:59:54 PM UTC-7 G. M.-S. wrote:
>
> Could you (both of you) take a short vacation from SageMath, please?
>
>
> Thanks, that's an interesting suggestion. But I think Dima would prefer to
> go on vacation with his family, not with me. ;)
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[Matthias Koeppe]

Hi Guillermo,

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 12:59:54 PM UTC-7 G. M.-S. wrote:

Could you (both of you) take a short vacation from SageMath, please?


Thanks, that's an interesting suggestion. But I think Dima would prefer to 
go on vacation with his family, not with me. ;)

Matthias

 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[G. M.-S.]

Dima and Matthias,

I completely agree with Nils.

Could you (both of you) take a short vacation from SageMath, please?

More globally, I propose to stop this discussion completely for a few days.

Thanks in advance.

Guillermo

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 21:14, Nils Bruin  wrote:

> @dima, @matthias : this public forum is not an appropriate venue to
> discuss personal disagreements. From what you both write I get the
> impression you actually have a lot of common ground and only a few
> differences in opinion, but that personalities and discussion styles
> exaggerate the disagreements. I hope a moderator steps in to warn you about
> code of conduct and making discussions personal. In the mean time, stepping
> back and let things cool down is probably the better thing to do, since I
> don't see a positive outcome from continuing your current back-and-forth,
> and it's toxic for other people following the thread to be confronted by
> such discord between respected members of the community.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/42fb0b3a-3f1c-48de-9a30-377e9dcd41cfn%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[Nils Bruin]

@dima, @matthias : this public forum is not an appropriate venue to discuss 
personal disagreements. From what you both write I get the impression you 
actually have a lot of common ground and only a few differences in opinion, 
but that personalities and discussion styles exaggerate the disagreements. 
I hope a moderator steps in to warn you about code of conduct and making 
discussions personal. In the mean time, stepping back and let things cool 
down is probably the better thing to do, since I don't see a positive 
outcome from continuing your current back-and-forth, and it's toxic for 
other people following the thread to be confronted by such discord between 
respected members of the community.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 8:04 PM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 11:56:15 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:53 PM Matthias Koeppe
>  wrote:
> > You are *assuming* that you are right, and then accuse me of blocking 
> > progress, and of wasting your time with the discussion; and then you demand 
> > that I give in, based on it.
>
> We have a disagreement on a policy, and you are in minority.
>
>
> Like many of your recent claims, also this one is unsubstantiated.

Can you count to 2? You were the reviewer against the PR, me,and the
PR author, for the PR.
This is called majority vs minority.

>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 11:56:15 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:53 PM Matthias Koeppe 
 wrote: 
> You are *assuming* that you are right, and then accuse me of blocking 
progress, and of wasting your time with the discussion; and then you demand 
that I give in, based on it. 

We have a disagreement on a policy, and you are in minority. 


Like many of your recent claims, also this one is unsubstantiated.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:53 PM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 9:14:14 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> already the discussion on these minor points has taken so much time that we 
> could have instead done 10 or 20 PRs
>
>
> This line of reasoning has been used several times already, including by you.
>
> I have to point out that it is an invalid argumentative tactic:
>
> You are *assuming* that you are right, and then accuse me of blocking 
> progress, and of wasting your time with the discussion; and then you demand 
> that I give in, based on it.

We have a disagreement on a policy, and you are in minority. Yet you
keep trying to block it by inventing alls sorts of nitpicks.
Therefore you are wrong - and you know it I suppose, you just can't stop.
I made you apologise on the last few days on one such totally
irrelevant nitpick, you want more of this fight to continue?

Fine, but the danger is that you'll get to develop Sage all by
yourself, as others will just walk away.
I'm certainly very close to quitting Sage developement.


.

>
> It is easy to make the mistake of overlooking that this is an invalid tactic, 
> based on a circular reasoning fallacy.
>
> But if used deliberately, it is abusive behavior -- namely a form of 
> bullying. As I wrote in 
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35404#issuecomment-1563435455, "Sage is 
> a mature project that is developed in the open and in which also all decision 
> making takes place in the open. Users and developers who decide to engage 
> with a project such as Sage know that this is always a long-term investment 
> on their side. They need to be able to trust that the project makes decisions 
> in a meaningful, responsible way, which reduces their perceived risk in 
> making this investment."
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[William Stein]

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:53 AM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 9:14:14 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> already the discussion on these minor points has taken so much time that
> we could have instead done 10 or 20 PRs
>
>
> This line of reasoning has been used several times already, including by
> you.
>
> I have to point out that it is an invalid argumentative tactic:
>
> You are *assuming* that you are right, and then accuse me of blocking
> progress, and of wasting your time with the discussion; and then you demand
> that I give in, based on it.
>
> It is easy to make the mistake of overlooking that this is an invalid
> tactic, based on a circular reasoning fallacy.
>
> But if used deliberately, it is abusive behavior -- namely a form of
> bullying. As I wrote in
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35404#issuecomment-1563435455, "Sage
> is a mature project that is developed in the open and in which also all
> decision making takes place in the open. Users and developers who decide
> to engage with a project such as Sage know that this is always a long-term
> investment on their side. They need to be able to trust that the project
> makes decisions in a meaningful, responsible way, which reduces their
> perceived risk in making this investment."
>


+1. This is hard to disagree with.


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> 
> .
>
-- 
-- William Stein

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 9:14:14 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

already the discussion on these minor points has taken so much time that we 
could have instead done 10 or 20 PRs


This line of reasoning has been used several times already, including by 
you.

I have to point out that it is an invalid argumentative tactic: 

You are *assuming* that you are right, and then accuse me of blocking 
progress, and of wasting your time with the discussion; and then you demand 
that I give in, based on it. 

It is easy to make the mistake of overlooking that this is an invalid 
tactic, based on a circular reasoning fallacy. 

But if used deliberately, it is abusive behavior -- namely a form of 
bullying. As I wrote 
in https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35404#issuecomment-1563435455, "Sage 
is a mature project that is developed in the open and in which also all 
decision making takes place in the open. Users and developers who decide to 
engage with a project such as Sage know that this is always a long-term 
investment on their side. They need to be able to trust that the project 
makes decisions in a meaningful, responsible way, which reduces their 
perceived risk in making this investment."

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[Dima Pasechnik]

already the discussion on these minor points has taken so much time that we
could have instead done 10 or 20 PRs, but apparently for you, Matthias, the
priorities are elsewhere - defending your point of view takes  precedence
over everything else.

I find it hugely damaging to the project.



On Tue, 30 May 2023, 17:04 Matthias Koeppe, 
wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 2:15:57 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> Once again, I think we should close ranks with the rest of scientific
> python people and start following NEP 29.
> We have much more urgent stuff to work on - buggy Pynac, buggy Singular
> interface, etc, than the Python 3.8 retrocomputing.
>
>
> Here again it is implied that that "we" are doing work to maintain the
> Python 3.8 support that would get in the way of doing more important work.
> This is unsubstantiated -- because it is simply not true.
> There was a single ticket which broke Python 3.8 support since we dropped
> Python 3.7 support (2022). It was caught by the automatic portability tests
> in the next beta, and then I made the (trivial) fix. That's all.
>
>
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> 
> .
>

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[sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 2:15:57 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

Once again, I think we should close ranks with the rest of scientific 
python people and start following NEP 29.
We have much more urgent stuff to work on - buggy Pynac, buggy Singular 
interface, etc, than the Python 3.8 retrocomputing.


Here again it is implied that that "we" are doing work to maintain the 
Python 3.8 support that would get in the way of doing more important work.
This is unsubstantiated -- because it is simply not true. 
There was a single ticket which broke Python 3.8 support since we dropped 
Python 3.7 support (2022). It was caught by the automatic portability tests 
in the next beta, and then I made the (trivial) fix. That's all.


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