Re: [sage-devel] trac notification emails

[David Coudert]

I discovered today that mails can also be put into quarantine.
Problem solved (I hope).
Best,

Le mercredi 10 mars 2021 à 09:31:59 UTC+1, David Coudert a écrit :

> I will ask the IT service of Inria.
> Thank you Dima. 
>
> Le mercredi 10 mars 2021 à 01:15:15 UTC+1, dim...@gmail.com a écrit :
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Mar 2021, 22:41 David Coudert,  wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know why, but apparently I don't receive notification emails 
>>> from the trac server since a couple of days. Did I miss some configuration 
>>> change ?
>>> Are others having the same issue ?
>>>
>>
>> I checked logs, everything is in order on the sender side, your emails 
>> are being delivered.
>> e.g.
>>
>> Mar  9 18:34:12 sagemath smtpd[93054]: 407e223ef83c2266 mta delivery 
>> evpid=519550eedbe2e43f from= to= 
>> rcpt=<-> source="46.23.93.76" relay="192.134.164.98 (
>> mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr)" delay=2s result="Ok" stat="250 ok: 
>>  Message 375249000 accepted"
>>
>> I guess it's your side that has issues. A new spam filter in INRIA?
>>
>> Dima
>>
>> -- 
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>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [sage-devel] trac notification emails

[David Coudert]

I will ask the IT service of Inria.
Thank you Dima. 

Le mercredi 10 mars 2021 à 01:15:15 UTC+1, dim...@gmail.com a écrit :

>
>
> On Tue, 9 Mar 2021, 22:41 David Coudert,  wrote:
>
>> I don't know why, but apparently I don't receive notification emails from 
>> the trac server since a couple of days. Did I miss some configuration 
>> change ?
>> Are others having the same issue ?
>>
>
> I checked logs, everything is in order on the sender side, your emails are 
> being delivered.
> e.g.
>
> Mar  9 18:34:12 sagemath smtpd[93054]: 407e223ef83c2266 mta delivery 
> evpid=519550eedbe2e43f from= to= 
> rcpt=<-> source="46.23.93.76" relay="192.134.164.98 (
> mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr)" delay=2s result="Ok" stat="250 ok: 
>  Message 375249000 accepted"
>
> I guess it's your side that has issues. A new spam filter in INRIA?
>
> Dima
>
> -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] trac notification emails

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tue, 9 Mar 2021, 22:41 David Coudert,  wrote:

> I don't know why, but apparently I don't receive notification emails from
> the trac server since a couple of days. Did I miss some configuration
> change ?
> Are others having the same issue ?
>

I checked logs, everything is in order on the sender side, your emails are
being delivered.
e.g.

Mar  9 18:34:12 sagemath smtpd[93054]: 407e223ef83c2266 mta delivery
evpid=519550eedbe2e43f from= to=
rcpt=<-> source="46.23.93.76" relay="192.134.164.98 (
mail3-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr)" delay=2s result="Ok" stat="250 ok:
 Message 375249000 accepted"

I guess it's your side that has issues. A new spam filter in INRIA?

Dima

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> 
> .
>

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[sage-devel] trac notification emails

[David Coudert]

I don't know why, but apparently I don't receive notification emails from 
the trac server since a couple of days. Did I miss some configuration 
change ?
Are others having the same issue ?

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Re: [sagemath-admins] Re: [sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[William Stein]

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 2:01 AM Harald Schilly  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:27 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
>> Also, note that GCE has an option of sending emails via G-suite,
>> perhaps if someone already has G-suite it might come out better.
>>
>
> G-Suite has an email relay server, where the limit is 10k per day, more or
> less. It's not hard to set it up.
> https://support.google.com/a/answer/2956491?hl=en
>

That sounds like what should definitely be done.  The dedicated SendGrid
option is pretty expensive (well over $100/month).
We have a G-suite subscription for "sagemath.com" so it seems like we could
use this for trac emails...


>
>
> If you have 2FA enabled, you need to create an "app specific password"
> just for sending emails, and use that as the password.
> https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833
>
> -- harald
>
>
>
>
> --
>
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> 
> .
>


-- 
William (http://wstein.org)

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Re: [sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/26/20 12:11 AM, William wrote:
> 
> We pay $15/month for a plan that lets trac.sagemath.org's send up to 40K
> emails (they charge when we go over).  During the last month, trac sent
> 23,237 emails.     Maybe there is a really good competitor for email
> today.  That page I linked to above says "SendGrid, Mailgun, and Mailjet
> offer a free tier for Compute Engine customers to set up and send email
> through their servers."   I have not investigated Mailgun or Mailjet,
> but would love to hear from Michael Orlitzky if either one of those are
> a reasonable option.

"If what they're doing isn't working, tell them to do something else."

The other two can't be any worse.

I didn't know that the web server was unable to send email. That
precludes the easy solution. It looks like google is just passing the
buck to SendGrid/Mailgun/Mailjet who then allow GCE customers to send
whatever they want, so that any abuse that would have taken place on GCE
now takes place on those three platforms.

Now you need two servers to do one thing. Paying extra for a dedicated
IP with SendGrid/Mailgun/Mailjet would solve the problem (by separating
the trac emails from everybody else's junk), but it's just stupid that
you'd have to pay extra for a second copy of what you already have at
GCE. It's also possible that Mailgun/Mailjet are better at preventing
abuse than SendGrid, and that there would be no problem with them, but
as "bulk email for hire" services I'm skeptical.

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Re: [sagemath-admins] Re: [sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[Harald Schilly]

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:27 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:

> Also, note that GCE has an option of sending emails via G-suite,
> perhaps if someone already has G-suite it might come out better.
>

G-Suite has an email relay server, where the limit is 10k per day, more or
less. It's not hard to set it up.
https://support.google.com/a/answer/2956491?hl=en

If you have 2FA enabled, you need to create an "app specific password" just
for sending emails, and use that as the password.
https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833

-- harald

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Re: [sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:11 PM William  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 6:27:21 PM UTC-7, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>> Trac server is hosted on Google Compute Engine (or whatever it's
>> called now), which
>> disallows outgoing SMTP.
>
>
> True. Docs here: https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/tutorials/sending-mail
>
>>
>> (also, it seems that the IP may change over time).
>
>
> Fortunately not true.  I just checked the GCE console, and the ip addresses 
> for our trac and wiki are static, so they do not change over time.   (If it 
> were really changing over time then trac.sagemath.org would periodically 
> completely break until either Harald Schilly or I manually change the DNS 
> configuration, and fortunately I never remember doing that.)
>
> We pay $15/month for a plan that lets trac.sagemath.org's send up to 40K 
> emails (they charge when we go over).  During the last month, trac sent 
> 23,237 emails. Maybe there is a really good competitor for email today.  
> That page I linked to above says "SendGrid, Mailgun, and Mailjet offer a free 
> tier for Compute Engine customers to set up and send email through their 
> servers."   I have not investigated Mailgun or Mailjet, but would love to 
> hear from Michael Orlitzky if either one of those are a reasonable option.
>

AWS SES is a better option money-wise, see https://aws.amazon.com/ses/pricing/
Also, note that GCE has an option of sending emails via G-suite,
perhaps if someone already has G-suite it might come out better.


Best
Dima

> Thanks,
>
>  William
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[William]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 6:27:21 PM UTC-7, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> Trac server is hosted on Google Compute Engine (or whatever it's 
> called now), which 
> disallows outgoing SMTP. 
>

True. Docs here: 
https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/tutorials/sending-mail
 

> (also, it seems that the IP may change over time). 
>

Fortunately not true.  I just checked the GCE console, and the ip addresses 
for our trac and wiki are static, so they do not change over time.   (If it 
were really changing over time then trac.sagemath.org would periodically 
completely break until either Harald Schilly or I manually change the DNS 
configuration, and fortunately I never remember doing that.)

We pay $15/month for a plan that lets trac.sagemath.org's send up to 40K 
emails (they charge when we go over).  During the last month, trac sent 
23,237 emails. Maybe there is a really good competitor for email 
today.  That page I linked to above says "SendGrid, Mailgun, and Mailjet 
offer a free tier for Compute Engine customers to set up and send email 
through their servers."   I have not investigated Mailgun or Mailjet, but 
would love to hear from Michael Orlitzky if either one of those are a 
reasonable option.

Thanks,

 William 

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Re: [sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 8:52 AM Michael Orlitzky  wrote:
>
> On 4/25/20 8:28 PM, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> >
> > We talk about 20-40K emails per month.
> > I believe that one would need a properly configured host
> > with correcrty set up DNS, SPF, DKIM, etc etc to make many mail servers
> > happy, as most people have no control over email whitelisting.
> > And it has to be on a reasonably fast and reliable network, where you
> > are able to ask admins to allow for an outgoing SMTP.
> > (here goes "free", unless you are able to utilize resources of some
> > organisation like a university or a company, or an non-profit
> > like a Linux distributor, say. A dedicated server
> > would still cost ~100$ per year at least, I guess, something we can
> > afford, though)
> > And it needs to be set up and maintained.
> >
> > Any volunteers for this job? Michael?
> >
>
> 20-40k per month isn't much. SPF and reverse DNS are trivial to set up,
> and you don't need DKIM. (That's not too hard either, but DKIM/DMARC
> often just cause your messages to get rejected again.)
>
> If the Trac web server has a static IP, all you would need to do is
> install an MTA on it and tell Trac to use the local sendmail command
> instead of connecting to SendGrid over SMTP to send these messages. That
> shouldn't cost anything extra if Trac is on a dedicated server, but I've
> no idea how that is set up. If it can send mail, and if we can change
> the PTR record for the IP, that's all we'd need.

Trac server is hosted on Google Compute Engine (or whatever it's
called now), which
disallows outgoing SMTP.
(also, it seems that the IP may change over time).
That's why we went with SendGrid as Trac was being moved our of UW hosting.



>
> The goal here is just to do better than servers that are on six
> blacklists... it doesn't take a dedicated team of full-time experts to
> do that.
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/25/20 8:28 PM, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> 
> We talk about 20-40K emails per month.
> I believe that one would need a properly configured host
> with correcrty set up DNS, SPF, DKIM, etc etc to make many mail servers
> happy, as most people have no control over email whitelisting.
> And it has to be on a reasonably fast and reliable network, where you
> are able to ask admins to allow for an outgoing SMTP.
> (here goes "free", unless you are able to utilize resources of some
> organisation like a university or a company, or an non-profit
> like a Linux distributor, say. A dedicated server
> would still cost ~100$ per year at least, I guess, something we can
> afford, though)
> And it needs to be set up and maintained.
> 
> Any volunteers for this job? Michael?
> 

20-40k per month isn't much. SPF and reverse DNS are trivial to set up,
and you don't need DKIM. (That's not too hard either, but DKIM/DMARC
often just cause your messages to get rejected again.)

If the Trac web server has a static IP, all you would need to do is
install an MTA on it and tell Trac to use the local sendmail command
instead of connecting to SendGrid over SMTP to send these messages. That
shouldn't cost anything extra if Trac is on a dedicated server, but I've
no idea how that is set up. If it can send mail, and if we can change
the PTR record for the IP, that's all we'd need.

The goal here is just to do better than servers that are on six
blacklists... it doesn't take a dedicated team of full-time experts to
do that.

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Re: [sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:22 AM Michael Orlitzky  wrote:
>
> Can we please change how our Trac notification emails are sent? SendGrid
> is absolutely atrocious. I currently have six of their shared IPs
> whitelisted on our mail server to allow these notifications through,
> because they would otherwise be blocked by the many many many blacklists
> that SendGrid is always on for sending spam. Here are those IPs, and the
> number of blacklists that they're on right now (it fluctuates).
>
> Six blacklists:
>
>   https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a167.89.100.130
>   https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a167.89.100.175
>
> Four blacklists:
>
>   https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a167.89.100.176
>
> Three blacklists:
>
>   https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a167.89.100.129
>   https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a168.245.72.219
>   https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a198.21.6.101
>
> Those are all IPs that are actively sending Trac notifications. There
> are two problems with this:
>
>   1. I don't want to be whitelisting spammers on our mail server.
>
>   2. Every once in a while, SendGrid will pick a new IP to start
>  sending Trac notifications from, and the only way I know to
>  whitelist them is that I start missing important notifications.
>
> It's impossible to do worse than this with a five-minute outgoing-only
> local postfix instance. You get a PTR record for the server, make sure
> it's not on any blacklists, and pick one poor sucker to receive the
> "bounced" mail (when someone's Trac email address stops working, we need
> to know and disable it). You might get rate-limited by Microsoft/Gmail
> at first (what kind of volume are we talking about?), but those
> notifications won't get lost forever, and that problem eventually
> corrects itself unlike this one. And it's free.

We talk about 20-40K emails per month.
I believe that one would need a properly configured host
with correcrty set up DNS, SPF, DKIM, etc etc to make many mail servers
happy, as most people have no control over email whitelisting.
And it has to be on a reasonably fast and reliable network, where you
are able to ask admins to allow for an outgoing SMTP.
(here goes "free", unless you are able to utilize resources of some
organisation like a university or a company, or an non-profit
like a Linux distributor, say. A dedicated server
would still cost ~100$ per year at least, I guess, something we can
afford, though)
And it needs to be set up and maintained.

Any volunteers for this job? Michael?

Dima

>
> Here's the entire postfix main.cf for such an instance:
>
>   compatibility_level = 2
>   inet_protocols = ipv4
>   home_mailbox = .maildir/
>   myhostname = hostname.example.com
>   smtp_skip_5xx_greeting = no
>   unknown_address_reject_code = 550
>   fast_flush_domains =
>   error_notice_recipient = postmas...@example.com
>
> Then postmas...@example.com would go to whoever is in charge of the server.
>
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[sage-devel] Trac notification emails

[Michael Orlitzky]

Can we please change how our Trac notification emails are sent? SendGrid
is absolutely atrocious. I currently have six of their shared IPs
whitelisted on our mail server to allow these notifications through,
because they would otherwise be blocked by the many many many blacklists
that SendGrid is always on for sending spam. Here are those IPs, and the
number of blacklists that they're on right now (it fluctuates).

Six blacklists:

  https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a167.89.100.130
  https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a167.89.100.175

Four blacklists:

  https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a167.89.100.176

Three blacklists:

  https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a167.89.100.129
  https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a168.245.72.219
  https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=blacklist%3a198.21.6.101

Those are all IPs that are actively sending Trac notifications. There
are two problems with this:

  1. I don't want to be whitelisting spammers on our mail server.

  2. Every once in a while, SendGrid will pick a new IP to start
 sending Trac notifications from, and the only way I know to
 whitelist them is that I start missing important notifications.

It's impossible to do worse than this with a five-minute outgoing-only
local postfix instance. You get a PTR record for the server, make sure
it's not on any blacklists, and pick one poor sucker to receive the
"bounced" mail (when someone's Trac email address stops working, we need
to know and disable it). You might get rate-limited by Microsoft/Gmail
at first (what kind of volume are we talking about?), but those
notifications won't get lost forever, and that problem eventually
corrects itself unlike this one. And it's free.

Here's the entire postfix main.cf for such an instance:

  compatibility_level = 2
  inet_protocols = ipv4
  home_mailbox = .maildir/
  myhostname = hostname.example.com
  smtp_skip_5xx_greeting = no
  unknown_address_reject_code = 550
  fast_flush_domains =
  error_notice_recipient = postmas...@example.com

Then postmas...@example.com would go to whoever is in charge of the server.

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