[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[kcrisman]

> > Thanks everyone for the replies. I'd have to do this on a local server. 
> > Ironically, there is a somewhat draconian Australian law that is a 
> > consequence of the Australian-US trade agreements that probably make it 
> > illegal for me to keep data on foreign servers, but no doubt my 
> > university would not like it either. I'll have a look and see if it is 
> > manageable. The real issue is writing the content from scratch. 
>
>
>
Something related (and open-source) is Ximera
https://ximera.osu.edu
Which I believe might support some of what you are looking for. 


> (There in addition is a French sage-education list.) 
>

Oh!  That is good to know and should be better advertised. 

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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[leif]

Andrew wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the replies. I'd have to do this on a local server.
> Ironically, there is a somewhat draconian Australian law that is a
> consequence of the Australian-US trade agreements that probably make it
> illegal for me to keep data on foreign servers, but no doubt my
> university would not like it either. I'll have a look and see if it is
> manageable. The real issue is writing the content from scratch.

Perhaps also ask on sage-education; there doesn't seem to be much
traffic, but one never knows...

(There in addition is a French sage-education list.)


-leif


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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[Andrew]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'd have to do this on a local server. 
Ironically, there is a somewhat draconian Australian law that is a 
consequence of the Australian-US trade agreements that probably make it 
illegal for me to keep data on foreign servers, but no doubt my university 
would not like it either. I'll have a look and see if it is manageable. The 
real issue is writing the content from scratch.

Andrew

On Thursday, 25 August 2016 02:07:29 UTC+10, leif wrote:
>
> Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
> > Hi Simon, 
> > the question is delicate; I know that in UK there is a number of 
> universities using SMC for teaching purposes. 
> > As well as in some other countries (William can give details on this, I 
> suppose); as well, some MOOCs probably use SMC. And, finally, Andrew, the 
> original poster, is in Sydney, Australia. 
> > 
> > IMHO your university is unclear in its position; first of all, one has 
> to define what "personal information" means. 
>
> Two lawyers, (at least) three opinions.  Especially in such cases. 
>
> I guess they -- understandably -- also want to avoid any chance of 
> getting sued, but I'd personally agree with them here (putting 
> restrictions on any kind of data which *might* look like personal 
> records). 
>
>
> > They might be right in saying that an official exam, and its records, 
> cannot be held on 
> > overseas computer systems. 
>
> Again guessing, but I bet their statement includes "cloud" services in 
> general, a fuzzy (marketing) term at least meanwhile implying 
> anti-transparency (w.r.t. where data is transferred to, stored, and 
> processed), and vulnerability. 
>
>
> > How about GCE servers located in EU? 
> > Is it legal? This way data does not leave the EU (probably, I don't know 
> for sure). 
>
> Again a grey area, as AFAIK in the past the U.S. government at least 
> tried to force U.S. (parent) companies to hand out data physically 
> located elsewhere, such that they tend to get into the dilemma of 
> violating either U.S. or European (or other national) law, not to 
> mention alleged practice of some agencies. 
>
>
> > In UK surely students can be asked to do coursework (we do not have any 
> official continuous assessments, so I guess quizzes would be just fine, 
> too) on SMC, nobody will blink at it. 
>
> For less critical data (such as ordinary exercises), it would IMHO be 
> sufficient / safe enough to let the students sign an agreement (or some 
> privacy declaration), provided they still have the option to e.g. submit 
> their work / results by other means [without getting discriminated in 
> some way in case they do]. 
>
> But it's probably already too difficult to in legal sense correctly 
> formulate such documents -- especially when it comes to "cloud" 
> services... ;-) 
>
> (How proper "anonymization" would perhaps in addition have to happen is 
> just another controversial aspect I'd say.) 
>
>
> -leif 
>
> > On the other hand, I cannot copy their academic records and other things 
> like their home addresses, anywhere outside the University, and even so 
> only under a number of conditions. 
> > 
> > Dima 
>
>
>

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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[leif]

Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> Hi Simon,
> the question is delicate; I know that in UK there is a number of universities 
> using SMC for teaching purposes.
> As well as in some other countries (William can give details on this, I 
> suppose); as well, some MOOCs probably use SMC. And, finally, Andrew, the 
> original poster, is in Sydney, Australia.
> 
> IMHO your university is unclear in its position; first of all, one has to 
> define what "personal information" means.

Two lawyers, (at least) three opinions.  Especially in such cases.

I guess they -- understandably -- also want to avoid any chance of
getting sued, but I'd personally agree with them here (putting
restrictions on any kind of data which *might* look like personal records).


> They might be right in saying that an official exam, and its records, cannot 
> be held on 
> overseas computer systems.

Again guessing, but I bet their statement includes "cloud" services in
general, a fuzzy (marketing) term at least meanwhile implying
anti-transparency (w.r.t. where data is transferred to, stored, and
processed), and vulnerability.


> How about GCE servers located in EU?
> Is it legal? This way data does not leave the EU (probably, I don't know for 
> sure).

Again a grey area, as AFAIK in the past the U.S. government at least
tried to force U.S. (parent) companies to hand out data physically
located elsewhere, such that they tend to get into the dilemma of
violating either U.S. or European (or other national) law, not to
mention alleged practice of some agencies.


> In UK surely students can be asked to do coursework (we do not have any 
> official continuous assessments, so I guess quizzes would be just fine, too) 
> on SMC, nobody will blink at it.

For less critical data (such as ordinary exercises), it would IMHO be
sufficient / safe enough to let the students sign an agreement (or some
privacy declaration), provided they still have the option to e.g. submit
their work / results by other means [without getting discriminated in
some way in case they do].

But it's probably already too difficult to in legal sense correctly
formulate such documents -- especially when it comes to "cloud"
services... ;-)

(How proper "anonymization" would perhaps in addition have to happen is
just another controversial aspect I'd say.)


-leif

> On the other hand, I cannot copy their academic records and other things like 
> their home addresses, anywhere outside the University, and even so only under 
> a number of conditions. 
> 
> Dima


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Re: [sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[William Stein]

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 3:07 AM, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> Hi Simon,
> the question is delicate; I know that in UK there is a number of universities 
> using SMC for teaching purposes.
> As well as in some other countries (William can give details on this, I 
> suppose);

https://github.com/sagemathinc/smc/wiki/Teaching

Simon:
>> My university wouldn't allow to store the student's
personal information on servers in the USA.

Accounts can be created with an arbitrary (even made up) email address,
or one such as class+num...@uni.edu, which provides a way to avoid
storing explicit personally identifying information on  SMC.
(Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.)

-- 
William (http://wstein.org)

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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[Dima Pasechnik]

Hi Simon,
the question is delicate; I know that in UK there is a number of universities 
using SMC for teaching purposes.
As well as in some other countries (William can give details on this, I 
suppose); as well, some MOOCs probably use SMC. And, finally, Andrew, the 
original poster, is in Sydney, Australia.

IMHO your university is unclear in its position; first of all, one has to 
define what "personal information" means. They might be right in saying that an 
official exam, and its records, cannot be held on 
overseas computer systems. How about GCE servers located in EU?
Is it legal? This way data does not leave the EU (probably, I don't know for 
sure).

In UK surely students can be asked to do coursework (we do not have any 
official continuous assessments, so I guess quizzes would be just fine, too) on 
SMC, nobody will blink at it. On the other hand, I cannot copy their academic 
records and other things like their home addresses, anywhere outside the 
University, and even so only under a number of conditions. 

Dima

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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[Dima Pasechnik]

Hi Simon,
the question is delicate; I know that in UK there is a number of universities 
using SMC for teaching purposes.
As well as in some other countries (William can give details on this, I 
suppose); as well, some MOOCs probably use SMC. And, finally, Andrew, the 
original poster, is in Sydney, Australia.

IMHO your university is unclear in its position; first of all, one has to 
define what "personal information" means. They might be right in saying that an 
official exam, and its records, cannot be held on 
overseas computer systems. How about GCE servers located in EU?
Is it legal? This way data does not leave the EU (probably, I don't know for 
sure).

In UK surely students can be asked to do coursework (we do not have any 
official continuous assessments, so I guess quizzes would be just fine, too) on 
SMC, nobody will blink at it. On the other hand, I cannot copy their academic 
records and other things like their home addresses, anywhere outside the 
University, and even so only under a number of conditions. 

Dima

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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[Simon King]

Hey Leif,

On 2016-08-24, leif  wrote:
>> Is that an option, if security concerns are relevant? My university
>> wouldn't allow to store the student's personal information on servers in
>> the USA.
>
> OT, but if I'm not mistaken, that's actually current law in the EU.

Possible, I don't know.

> (Which doesn't imply everybody cares...)

I was explicitly told to not use any cloud service for personal data of
students. So, *somebody* cares...

Best regards,
Simon

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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[leif]

Simon King wrote:
> Hi Dima,
> 
> On 2016-08-24, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 3:50:32 AM UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone have experience in using sage for on-line quizzes that count 
>>> towards student assessment. Of course, in addition to writing the code and 
>>> the content. there are various security issues that need to be taken care 
>>> of to do this. ...
>>  
>> SMC (i.e. cloud.sagemath.com) does have a lot of functionality for 
>> supporting courses.
>> With just a free SMC account its functionality  might be a bit too limited 
>> (e.g. it might not be fast enough for large classes) - but you can 
>> certainly try it, and have a functioning course setup. 
> 
> Is that an option, if security concerns are relevant? My university
> wouldn't allow to store the student's personal information on servers in
> the USA.

OT, but if I'm not mistaken, that's actually current law in the EU.
(Which doesn't imply everybody cares...)


-leif


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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[Simon King]

Hi Dima,

On 2016-08-24, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 3:50:32 AM UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have experience in using sage for on-line quizzes that count 
>> towards student assessment. Of course, in addition to writing the code and 
>> the content. there are various security issues that need to be taken care 
>> of to do this. ...
>  
> SMC (i.e. cloud.sagemath.com) does have a lot of functionality for 
> supporting courses.
> With just a free SMC account its functionality  might be a bit too limited 
> (e.g. it might not be fast enough for large classes) - but you can 
> certainly try it, and have a functioning course setup. 

Is that an option, if security concerns are relevant? My university
wouldn't allow to store the student's personal information on servers in
the USA.

Cheers,
Simon

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[sage-support] Re: Using sage for student quizzes

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 3:50:32 AM UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
>
> Does anyone have experience in using sage for on-line quizzes that count 
> towards student assessment. Of course, in addition to writing the code and 
> the content. there are various security issues that need to be taken care 
> of to do this. I know that MapleTA, MatLab and WebWorks all provide this 
> functionality and thought that this should be possible using sage notebooks.
>
> I'm sure that the answer to this question is yes but my trusty friend 
> google and I haven't found anything about this.
>
 
SMC (i.e. cloud.sagemath.com) does have a lot of functionality for 
supporting courses.
With just a free SMC account its functionality  might be a bit too limited 
(e.g. it might not be fast enough for large classes) - but you can 
certainly try it, and have a functioning course setup. 

Some people managed to install (full-blown, not "single-user") SMC on their 
own systems, although  this is quite tricky. 




> Andrew
>

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