You tend to get personal with people, Gymfig. Why is that? I disagree with you, but I don't get personal and say stuff like "nothing is ever humble with you". That's insulting. You don't know me on the level to say I'm never humble. I think Tracey and Martin and many people in this group--with whom I've had civil discussions--would tell you i'm not arrogant, self-righteous, or intractable in my opinions. And the more I read, this, the more I don't get your statement that I only see people as racist or not racist, with me or against me. I've never said anyting to even remotely convey that opinion.
I'm the son of a man who had an eighth grade education, who dropped out of school to work the family farm. My dad enlisted for WWII, was discharged due to medical issues, and worked odd jobs for years in a racist Texas. He and my mom adopted me when I was a young child, sparing me the life of an orphan. Dad was a minister, a barber, and worked double shifts at Bell Helicopter to support me and my two brothers. My mom was a church going woman who ran the household and made sure we had clothes to wear, food to eat, and a solid education. My family lived in a really small house, never owned a brand new car, always had to shop for the bargains. I know where I come from, i'm proud of it, and, if one can be arrogant in humility, I can say you can't get much more humble than I am. But I'm not a dunce, have opinions, and just beause I disagree with you, please don't say stuff like that. I don't want to say this, but you honestly strike me as someone who dislikes Black people, and Black men in particular. I notice that you speak with contempt-not disagreement, but contempt--whenever racism is mentioned. Rather than agree that racism still exists, and then say something like "but it isn't our only problem" (which all of us would agree on) you put down all Black people as seeking to be victims. I have a college degree in Electrical Engineering, was valedictorian of my high school, president of my college EE society, and currently work as a senior network administrator. I've worked my butt off to get where I am, and I didn't sit back and blame the world for all my problems. But I know racism exists because I've fought it. I've worked in HR before, and I know the racism still in existence in hiring and promotions in America. I've seen it. I'm successful by most standards, and I never let anything hold me down, but I know racism has made things harder for me than for m y white friends with whom i grew up. Yes there are issues of poverty, drugs, crime, lack of education, disintegration of the family, but racism still exists. I face it everyday in the good old Georgia white men at my job who would *never* vote for a Black man. It is one of a list of problems we face. i don't even see anyone in this group always crying racism first. We know Black people need to be self-reliant, take care of our kids, make a way in the world. We know it ain't all about racism. But you always take the truth of racism--even when it's only one part of a much more complex discussion--and rake us over the coals for that. Why is that? We don't use racism as a crutch, but we'd be fools to ignore it completely. Even if we were leaning on racism too much, you're like the person who helps someone when he's down by kicking them. Yelling at me, insulting me, denouncing all Blacks as wannabe victims, demeaning men--these aren't ways to help anyone listen to your point of view. Also, what is your deal with men? I've noticed over and over and over that you seize on stuff and start this "women can't make it work because of men" talk. Frankly, you cry "sexism" way more than anyone in this group has ever cried racism. It's like this thing with Obama. You keep saying he's just a man, and that Hillary as a woman never had a chance. You find all these examples of how sexism keeps women down. You diminish the accomplishment of a man of color as nothing, as if only a woman president would have any meaning. Well, first, unlike you do us, I won't rake you over the coals for decrying sexism. I know it exists too, my wife's struggles in this country are proof of that. But just like racism can't be blamed for everything, neither can sexism. Hillary Clinton lost in large part because she ran a poorly executed campaign. Just Monday I listened to a panel discussion of Dems and Republicans discuss what happened. They spoke of how Clinton arrogantly ignored the Iowa Caucus, while Obama pressed the flesh, visited diners, and clocked untold hours there. Edwards did the same thing, which is why she came in third. No one to blame but herself. You're telling me a lily white Midwestern state like that is more sexist than it is racist? Nope. Later, Clinton went after the bigger prizes, the states with more delegates, and again, virtually ignored the small states, the onesie-twosies beneath her notice. Obama, again, was out there, making himself look goofy bowling, eating in diners, speaking at high schools, outside farms, in barns, wherever. Indeed, what I find ironic is that Hillary later tried to paint Obama as out of touch and elitist, while the truth is *she* is the one who initially ignored those salt-of-the-Earth blue collar voters. Remember, it was an incredible multi-state run by Obama in all sorts of smaller states with caucases and the like that put him ahead. Obama gained more money than Hillary by getting more *people* who donated smaller sums of money. He was more the Everyman candidate than her--or McCain for that matter. People saw in him someone who had a positive outlook, who wanted to work across race and gender and party, who wanted to say the world could be better, not just a place of fear and enemies as the Bushites painted it to be. Then, when Hillary got a clue, she started turning the tide. But also note that she started winning in states like Pennsylvania, where nearly a fifth of the voters admitted that Obama's *race* was the main reason they didn't vote for him. If that many admitted this, how many more felt that way, but didn't admit it? And it was then that this whole Hillary-is-the-voice-of-blue-collar-voters thing started. Ironic that Obama was the one speaking to these people first, but Hillary then stole his gamebook, and was buoyed by an increasingly racially hostile voting turnout. And even then, she started saying the whole electoral process was unfair, decrying the caucus system, trying to go back on vows she made in Florida and Michigan. She was classless, desperate, hostile, and just plain outmanuevered, but she tried to blame everyone but herself for the failure. Yet despite all this, despite the obvious and rampant racism, Obama and his wife never made a huge deal of it. Did they discuss it? Sure, but they never sat back and said "well, we just can't win because America's racist". They acknowledged the problem, rolled up their sleeves, and kept fighting. It was Hillary and later Bill who kept crying "sexism" and "foul" at every term. The truth is, sexism and racism both played a part, but Hillary lost this thing because she came in with arrogance and lack of good planning. The sexism she encountered could have been minimized, just as Obama pulled off a stunning victory despite the racism he faced--and still faces. I find it odd that you and Hillary and those of your ilk brush aside Barak as just another man, minimizing the obstacle of his skin color, but playing up the burden of Hillary's gender. But I ask you, who among all candidates had the earliest and most serious increase in security due to threats? It wasn't Clinton, or McCain, Romney, or Edwards. Obama got so many serious threats so early in the campaign, the FBI admitted they were thngs to be taken seriously. I'd think in a country that hated women as much as you say, Hillary woud have been the one getting those death threats. Obama won fair and square. Blacks in America have been disappointed for *centuries* at losing the nearly obtained prize, at being told "wait your turn". We get hurt and upset, we roll up our sleeves, and we keep on keepin' on. When this thing started, everyone knew that one group--Blacks or women--would be disappointed.But many of us hoped that the sides would bond together in shared struggle, and support the winner as still someone to get the Republicans out of Washingtong. but in many cases that didn't happen. A bunch of women got pissed and strident, started crying "foul", and even now a part of them vow to not vote for Obama.Thing is, no one can find out what *Obama* did to them. He played by the rules, he was respectful to hillary, he's a man who values women --his mother, his grandmother, his wife, his daughters--yet they want to somehow include him with a sexist conspiracy? Balderdash. Some of these women--not all, but some--are just mad that one of theirs lost. They're sh owing a petulance and pettiness because they felt it was a woman's time. They spit on the accomplishment of Hillary getting so close by trying to blame Obama somehow, while insulting his monumental accomplishment as a Black going so far in America. They show less class in losing than Blacks have in centuries of oppression. I do'nt want to start men vs. women discussion. I respect women, I acknowledge their struggles. Again, as the husand of a strong and proud Black woman, i know what it's like for Sisters of all colors. But I'm also not going to stand by as a man who respects women and listent to a paranoid-sounding rant about how this country values Black men above women. Hillary Clinton *lost* because she blew the strategy. If this country were that incredibly sexist, why is she getting so much love at the DNC? The one thing I pray for, fight for, is for groups who've gotten shafted to work together: Mexicans and Blacks, Jews and gays, the poor and the uneducated, women and blue collar workers. Each group has a struggle and a story to tell. Each group has its history of pain, its battles to fight. The thing to do is for all of us to pull together, to help each other, to empathize and sympathize with each other's struggles and work together to create a world where *all* can be successful. But when we start this infighting, this finger pointing and attempt to out self-pty each other, nobody wins. For example, you post this list of insulting names hurled at women, but I can in less than sixty Google seconds come back with twenty equally offensive terms lobbied at Obama. Who is right? Which side is more hurt? It really doesn't matter, and I wish you and these pissed Hillary supporters would get a clue that trying to uplift yourself by elevating your pain above another group's is the stuff of dissension. Crabs in a barrel show more solidarity. We all hurt ,we all face struggle. If America is more sexist than racist, then quit compaining about it and work with us to change it. Quit attacking and diminishing men and work with us so we can together form a synergistic body to fight *all* forms of discrimination. I have to say your attitude is like poison in a spring of clear water. when this election started, my wife and I feared that women and Blacks might be at each other's throats. We prayed that whichever group "lost", it would realize the victory of either side was a victory for the other. That didn't happen with many, and you seem to be one. You want to sit there in a puzzling, sad, demoralizng pool of contempt for your own color that saddens and sickens me. You want to say women have no chance, and by extension, try to diminish the accomplishment of a Black man. You alienate the very people who might hear what you have to say with insults and charges of favoritism. In short, you're acting just like Hillary Clinton did when she blamed everything from men to the caucaus system for her problems. Whatever happened to you in life to make you self-hating, man-bashing, and self-pitying, I'm sorry for it. But i take no responsibility for it. I will ask that you stop attacking my people, stop putting down Blacks who have a reason to say they still have struggles, and stop this man bashing, which I find extremely distasteful. Hillary got a clue--it's time you did too. In my humble opinion. -------------- Original message -------------- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/27/2008 8:40:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, you're entitled to that opinion for sure. Speaking as a liberal, I'm heartened by a return to more liberal thinking. If it means we can look at people as people, instead of using sexual orientation and ethnicity as scare tactics, I'm all for it. If we can respect anyone whether they're Christian, Muslim, Jew, or atheist, then color me liberal. If we can return to a world where we talk with other nations and make decisions with them rather than try to push them around, then sign me up. And I get that just throwing a Black face in office isn't in and of itself enough. After all, two of the worst, most destructive people in recent history--Clarence Thomas and Condie Rice-are Black. But symbols are powerful.Taking a step is powerful. Opening a door is powerful. And putting a man --or woman, someday--of color in the highest office in the land is a powerful symbol. It will change us in ways we don't even comprehend right now. It won't be the Second Coming, but it will move us forward as a nation, a people, if only a little bit. Just as you and I benefited from our parents and grandparents being the first on a job, the first in a neighborhood, the first in a church, the first to vote, then we'll all benefit from the right man being the first to take the leadership of this country. In my humble opinion. Keith, Notihing is ever humble with you. I live in a traditional blue state. However they baneed gay marriege. Tehre are alot of blue states out there that don't like gay marriage. You live in a Hollywood world. A word were it is black or white. Either or. If you are against this, then you are racist. If you are for this, then you are okay. I am against illegal immigration. I am against having more Asians come over here. I think that a lack of rules is the problem in our society. Howeve I am not an Evangelical Christian. I despise them by the way. I am not to found of Christianity but I don't believe it should be vilified while other religons are celebrated. I don't think that IR are well help race relations. Actually I am not worried about race relations. I am worried about myself. I think that blaks spend way to much time worried about race and not about themselves as individuals. I think tthat they are too scared to be individuals. This country is not ready for a woman president. As long as this country focuses on race, a woman president will not happen. Therefore it will not happen. Unless the woman is non white or married to a non whte man. Bros before Hoes Mammy Nutcracker Bitch White Bitch These are terms that are acceptable acros racial and gender lines. It will not change with Obama. This country is moving forwad. However groups have to face responsibility. They chose not too because the media says it is not their fault. Slavery is the problem. Immigration. Racist white men are al the problem. Government programs are the solution. How can you be a progressive when you are told that nothing is ever your fault. You don't have to take the blame. The meida vilifies any person of color who does not fall into the victim hood category especially african americans. Obama is an excpetion. He is not a typical black person. He works hard. He is an immigrant. He does not have the stain of slavery. How can you be proud of that? Blacks have allowed liberals to feed them self doubt for too long. Yes Obama is exceptional. However why has it take us so long to believe it. That was not Bush, it was ourselves. It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
