Re: [scots-l] Oswald's English guittar (was Cumbernauld House)

2003-01-22 Thread David Kilpatrick


Toby Rider wrote:
re:

http://www.maxwellplace.demon.co.uk/pandemonium/guittar.html
and also at
http://www.robmackillop.com/


 Wow, these are some very nice photos. I can almost smell the wood. What a
fascinating axe! I noticed that the two bass strings are not doubled,
whereas all the other ones are. Do you know why they decided to set it up
that way?


As with the lute, orpharion etc. The question is more 'why do we have 
doubled basses now' on any instrument. The beats created by double bass 
strings are not pleasant, and lack the chorusing effect of double or 
treble course means and trebles - they just sound off-tune. Single 
basses are more than adequate, the thumb provides a firm pure sound of 
the correct volume. The basses should be made from catline (gut wound 
with a fine steel thread in it) or twisted brass wire, not the modern 
copper wound strings I use myself. But reproduction strings sets are 
from #40 to #80 a throw!

 Yes, the tuning mechanism is *totally* different. It actually seems like
a logical way to do this. What were the downfalls of it? I'm wondering
why this style of tuner never made it onto modern instruments.


It was 'patented' by Preston around 1734 and it does seem incredibly 
robust - mine has been
tuning away since around 1770 and still works like clockwork (which in 
engineering terms, it resembles!). Portugese guittaras and German 
waldzithers do still use these machines, but the Portugese put a big 
tuning knob on each of the 12 screws of their instrument, instead of a 
key which you have to remove and replace. The Germans use a grandfather 
clock key on harp-tuner size adjusters instead, and it's much easier to 
find those in a hurry.

  So do you think that's where the open tunings that American "old-time" 
players use originated from? I knew this was raise all of these
questions in my mind. Too bad I didn't see any sound samples of this
insturment.

I think the open triad/hexchord tuning is so fundamental it could 
equally well have come from Africa as Europe. But I would guess yes, 
that the American folk banjo, dulcimer and slide guitar tunings can from 
German-Dutch-French-English-Scots-Irish influence (old cittern tunings) 
rather than the Arabic-Spanish side (which tends be tuning in fourths, 
the exact reverse of an open tuning). The oldest and most universal 
tuning in the world is octave and fifth, as it's the most mathematically 
pure tuning. It's fundamental to most Scottish music. From there it is a 
small step to add a major third, a minor third, or ('mountain minor') a 
fourth.

Sound samples were linked somewhere! Here are some, one correctly 
Scottish (Bremner 1758):

Tweedside - http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/1617/1617988.html

and one which is just me doing a pastiche 'o'er the Border' variation in 
modern folk style, which I suspect may be the way the instrument was 
used informally, but Rob MacKillop finds too American/modern in manner:

Border Marches - http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/1416/1416640.html

I have one tune recorded, played on a modern instrument for comparison. 
This was before I acquired the guittar, Jack Campin sent me a 
transcription of a duet, on to one stave, for the 'Edinburgh Trained 
Bands March' from Bremner 1758. I worked out a single-handed soprano 
guitar arrangement from this, using a Tacoma Papoose, which has the same 
scale length as a guittar, but rather heavier single modern strings:

ETBM - http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/900/900446.html

However, the best thing to do is get Rob MacKillop's wonderful CD 
'Flowers of the Forest' which is played on several different lutes, a 
Scottish mandour (tiny renaissance ukelele-scale lute!), Scottish 
cittern, and his Broderip guittar. This CD can change your view of where 
Scottish music came from, and what happened to it when the German 
hired-hand composers got hold of it in the 18th c, and what further 
damage was done by the piano, and then the accordion :-)

David

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Re: [scots-l] Oswald's English guittar (was Cumbernauld House)

2003-01-22 Thread Toby Rider

>>
>>
>>  Wow, how well do those bone pegs work? Are they subject to the same
>> problems that the wooden pegs on fiddles are?
>
> Whoa! slow down... take a look at -
>
> http://www.maxwellplace.demon.co.uk/pandemonium/guittar.html
> and also at
> http://www.robmackillop.com/


 Wow, these are some very nice photos. I can almost smell the wood. What a
fascinating axe! I noticed that the two bass strings are not doubled,
whereas all the other ones are. Do you know why they decided to set it up
that way?


> The bone string pins are at the *other end* of the instrument, the
> tailpiece, and you loop the wire round them (I will shortly replace that
>  photo with the beautiful pins that Chris made for me). The tuner
> mechanism is different from anything you will have seen apart from a
> Portugese guitarra or German waldzither,

 Yes, the tuning mechanism is *totally* different. It actually seems like
a logical way to do this. What were the downfalls of it? I'm wondering
why this style of tuner never made it onto modern instruments.


> Banjo and dobro players use the tuning all the time, however, so a book
> of banjo chord shapes helps a long way to playing guittar or waldzither.

  So do you think that's where the open tunings that American "old-time" 
players use originated from? I knew this was raise all of these
questions in my mind. Too bad I didn't see any sound samples of this
insturment.



-- 
Toby Rider ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That puts it not unto the touch
To win or lose it all."

- James Graham, Marquis of Montrose


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Re: [scots-l] Navan

2003-01-22 Thread Toby Rider
 So they're kind of like a Gaelic version of the Manhattan Transfer :-)


> No instruments, just voices.
>
> At 07:49 AM 1/22/03 -0800, you wrote:
>>  So from their website it appears that they have 4 voices and no
>>instruments? Or did they hire some studio players in sit in on their
>> sessions?
>


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Re: [scots-l] Navan

2003-01-22 Thread Sue Richards


No instruments, just voices. 
At 07:49 AM 1/22/03 -0800, you wrote:
 So from their website it
appears that they have 4 voices and no
instruments? Or did they hire some studio players in sit in on 
their
sessions?

> I don't know whether they have been mentioned yet on this list, but
a
> new  young group from Madison, Wisconsin, called
"Navan" is well worth
> listening  to. Really tight harmonies and excellent singing.
They have
> one CD out.
>
> Sue Richards
>
> At 11:40 AM 1/21/03 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> > Slainte Mhath (from Cape Breton) makes some really
>> > interesting and danceable music using pop/techno
>> > fusion. They play fiddle, bagpipes, bodhran,
>> > keyboards, flutes and more (and stepdance!). A nice
>> > description of their style from their website:
>> >
(http://www.slaintemhath.com)
>>
>>  Slainte Mhath is great. I love those guys (and girls).
I've still got
>>their first CD on constant rotation. They're definately on the
right
>> track I think.
>>
>>
>> > As far as I can tell, thru logic and listening to 
many
>> > musicians, the "secret" to making good fusion
music is
>> > to know traditional music inside and out. If you know
>> > where it's coming from and what makes it unique, and
>> > respect that, then you're more likely to understand
>> > what will mix well with it.
>>
>>
>>  Not only knowing trad. music inside out, but you've also
got to know
>>whatever genres that make in into your "sound".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture
List - To
>> subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to:
>>http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

-- 
Toby Rider ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That puts it not unto the touch
To win or lose it all."
- James Graham, Marquis of Montrose

Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List -
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to:
http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html




Re: [scots-l] Navan

2003-01-22 Thread Toby Rider
 So from their website it appears that they have 4 voices and no
instruments? Or did they hire some studio players in sit in on their
sessions?



> I don't know whether they have been mentioned yet on this list, but a
> new  young group from Madison, Wisconsin, called "Navan" is well worth
> listening  to. Really tight harmonies and excellent singing. They have
> one CD out.
>
> Sue Richards
>
> At 11:40 AM 1/21/03 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> > Slainte Mhath (from Cape Breton) makes some really
>> > interesting and danceable music using pop/techno
>> > fusion. They play fiddle, bagpipes, bodhran,
>> > keyboards, flutes and more (and stepdance!). A nice
>> > description of their style from their website:
>> > (http://www.slaintemhath.com)
>>
>>  Slainte Mhath is great. I love those guys (and girls). I've still got
>>their first CD on constant rotation. They're definately on the right
>> track I think.
>>
>>
>> > As far as I can tell, thru logic and listening to many
>> > musicians, the "secret" to making good fusion music is
>> > to know traditional music inside and out. If you know
>> > where it's coming from and what makes it unique, and
>> > respect that, then you're more likely to understand
>> > what will mix well with it.
>>
>>
>>  Not only knowing trad. music inside out, but you've also got to know
>>whatever genres that make in into your "sound".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To
>> subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to:
>>http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html


-- 
Toby Rider ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That puts it not unto the touch
To win or lose it all."

- James Graham, Marquis of Montrose


Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To 
subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html



[scots-l] Tune Id?

2003-01-22 Thread Dominique Renaudin
Hi,

X:1
T:???
C:???
Q:1/4=200
M:4/4
L:1/8
R:reel?
K:E Minor
B,B, | G2 GG FE^DE | B,6 B,B, | E2F2G2A2 |
(B4 B2) GA | B2cB A2 BA | G2 AG F2 GA | B2 EE GFE^D |
E6 :| E^DEF G2 FG | AGFE ^D2 B,2 | E^DEF GFGA |
B6 GA | B2 cB A2 BA | G2 AG F2 GA | B2 EE GFE^D |
E6 :|

Any idea?

Thanks...

Dominique R
http://domren.free.fr

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