Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:39 AM, James Cameron qu...@laptop.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 05:51:55PM +1000, James Cameron wrote: I like Sugar Network, because the problem of content sharing is examined from a top down design perspective, including the constraint that internet connectivity might not be available, or it may be intermittent. On the other hand, the two School Server projects (XS and XSCE) seem to be bottom up designs; here's a Linux server, now how can we use it? After private mail, I retract this. It was a false impression based on the Wiki pages for XS and XSCE, which emphasise technical specifications rather than the functional specifications or features. (e.g. XS_Features is split out to another page, not on School_server, and School_server begins heavily with Linux-based and hardware recommendations.) (e.g. XS_Community_Edition explains more about the project team, communications methods, contributors, and history than it does about the features.) I suggest that the product and development content be split so this distinction is clearer. If I got it so wrong, others may too. I agree. Our challenge, and strength, is that most of the original people involved in the project support deployments as our day jobs. We all have a pretty good idea of what problems we want a school server to solve. The question at the front of our minds was not What should we do? The question was How can we do it without killing each other? Now that the project has made good progress sorting out the community stuff ( internal communication, decision making, release management ) We will see a shift towards external communication. My apologies for the misunderstanding. While painful, I found the recent threads extremely helpful. Talking (and more) amongst ourselves about how the world didn't get us, did not seem to be a particularly productive communication strategy for the XSCE community:( -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel -- David Farning Activity Central: http://www.activitycentral.com ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
Oh, it was the latter paragraph that I retract. I still think Sugar Network is a pretty cool idea that should be considered further by both XS and XSCE developers. On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 05:51:55PM +1000, James Cameron wrote: I like Sugar Network, because the problem of content sharing is examined from a top down design perspective, including the constraint that internet connectivity might not be available, or it may be intermittent. On the other hand, the two School Server projects (XS and XSCE) seem to be bottom up designs; here's a Linux server, now how can we use it? -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 05:51:55PM +1000, James Cameron wrote: I like Sugar Network, because the problem of content sharing is examined from a top down design perspective, including the constraint that internet connectivity might not be available, or it may be intermittent. On the other hand, the two School Server projects (XS and XSCE) seem to be bottom up designs; here's a Linux server, now how can we use it? After private mail, I retract this. It was a false impression based on the Wiki pages for XS and XSCE, which emphasise technical specifications rather than the functional specifications or features. (e.g. XS_Features is split out to another page, not on School_server, and School_server begins heavily with Linux-based and hardware recommendations.) (e.g. XS_Community_Edition explains more about the project team, communications methods, contributors, and history than it does about the features.) I suggest that the product and development content be split so this distinction is clearer. If I got it so wrong, others may too. My apologies for the misunderstanding. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
I like Sugar Network, because the problem of content sharing is examined from a top down design perspective, including the constraint that internet connectivity might not be available, or it may be intermittent. On the other hand, the two School Server projects (XS and XSCE) seem to be bottom up designs; here's a Linux server, now how can we use it? Haiti, for example, might benefit from a community-run Sugar Network Internet Server node [1], with an instance of the Sugar Network Gateway Server software [2] on each XSCE, and the appropriate Sugar Network additions to the laptops [3] [4]. If it works according to the design, it might greatly simplify setup of each XSCE and content. I have not tested it myself. References: 1. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Platform/Internet 2. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Platform/Gateway 3. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Platform/XO_reference_distribution 4. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Network#On_desktop -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
Hi Tony, The people developing the Sugar Network are an international team comprising people from different backgrounds. Sugar Network is not a cloud-based resource. It is an offline / online decentralized communication mechanism which runs at three levels (everyone seems to love cake charts): SUGAR NETWORK DIAGRAM +~~~+ | network.sugarlabs.org |// instance runs backend node + frontend web service +---+ / /restful API*/ / // ability clone + sync entire SN database even over USB (sneakernet) +---+ | optional schoolserver | // instance too, runs backend node + frontend web service +---+ / /same restful API*/ / // gives access to resources at server or central server +---+ | laptop with SN plugin | // XO clients have special view in sugar to access +~~~+ (*) http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Platform_Team/Sugar_Network/API The Sugar Network is designed to transport abstract objects across the connected/disconnected gap by leveraging schoolservers to concentrate user interactions and contributions and providing a workflow for synchronization, with or without a central server. Find information about the (still untested!) design of sneakernet functionality at: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Platform/Sneakernet At the moment, only XO users are authenticated to the network (using sugar's crypto keys). Web users are demo. Please try it and let us know how we can improve it, and do join the conversation at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sugar-network https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21forum/sugar-network (in cc) for technical questions. Best regards, Sebastian El 08/08/13 05:40, Tony Anderson escribió: Hi, Sebastian My concern was email access in deployments which only have access to the Internet by taking a usb drive to an internet cafe. I thought that Peru was developing such a capability at least for software distribution. The deployments I am working with do not have access to the internet and so are unable to use cloud-based resources. Tony On 08/08/2013 11:39 AM, Sebastian Silva wrote: El 06/08/13 08:33, Tony Anderson escribió: As mentioned, there are server developments at many deployments. What would be great is a co-operative team that would work to provide capabilities in a way that can be distributed widely. I am sure that Peru is working on a method to deliver email via usb drive (and internet cafes). I just don't have any visibility in the method taken, the technology employed, or whether the development can be applicable outside of Peru. We've made a significant effort to have all of our development visible upstream: http://git.sugarlabs.org/network http://git.sugarlabs.org/platform Also most of our technical and non-technical documentation is in English: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Network http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Platform_Team/Sugar_Network We are server-solution-agnostic and merely provide a set of specialized services packaged for major distributions at this time. To take advantage of all Sugar Network capabilities, a patched Sugar shell is necessary (SN-plugin). It adds a special view to participate in the Sugar Network. It is interesting that we are specifically trying to tackle the downstreams/upstream cooperation/distribution issue. Still, we're not planning to add an email gateway to the Sugar Network at this time, but expect most communication to happen over the Sugar Network support forums / knowledge base, which is also accessible using a regular browser: http://network.sugarlabs.org/ Regards, Sebastian ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
El 06/08/13 08:33, Tony Anderson escribió: As mentioned, there are server developments at many deployments. What would be great is a co-operative team that would work to provide capabilities in a way that can be distributed widely. I am sure that Peru is working on a method to deliver email via usb drive (and internet cafes). I just don't have any visibility in the method taken, the technology employed, or whether the development can be applicable outside of Peru. We've made a significant effort to have all of our development visible upstream: http://git.sugarlabs.org/network http://git.sugarlabs.org/platform Also most of our technical and non-technical documentation is in English: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Network http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Platform_Team/Sugar_Network We are server-solution-agnostic and merely provide a set of specialized services packaged for major distributions at this time. To take advantage of all Sugar Network capabilities, a patched Sugar shell is necessary (SN-plugin). It adds a special view to participate in the Sugar Network. It is interesting that we are specifically trying to tackle the downstreams/upstream cooperation/distribution issue. Still, we're not planning to add an email gateway to the Sugar Network at this time, but expect most communication to happen over the Sugar Network support forums / knowledge base, which is also accessible using a regular browser: http://network.sugarlabs.org/ Regards, Sebastian ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
Hi, Sebastian My concern was email access in deployments which only have access to the Internet by taking a usb drive to an internet cafe. I thought that Peru was developing such a capability at least for software distribution. The deployments I am working with do not have access to the internet and so are unable to use cloud-based resources. Tony On 08/08/2013 11:39 AM, Sebastian Silva wrote: El 06/08/13 08:33, Tony Anderson escribió: As mentioned, there are server developments at many deployments. What would be great is a co-operative team that would work to provide capabilities in a way that can be distributed widely. I am sure that Peru is working on a method to deliver email via usb drive (and internet cafes). I just don't have any visibility in the method taken, the technology employed, or whether the development can be applicable outside of Peru. We've made a significant effort to have all of our development visible upstream: http://git.sugarlabs.org/network http://git.sugarlabs.org/platform Also most of our technical and non-technical documentation is in English: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Network http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Platform_Team/Sugar_Network We are server-solution-agnostic and merely provide a set of specialized services packaged for major distributions at this time. To take advantage of all Sugar Network capabilities, a patched Sugar shell is necessary (SN-plugin). It adds a special view to participate in the Sugar Network. It is interesting that we are specifically trying to tackle the downstreams/upstream cooperation/distribution issue. Still, we're not planning to add an email gateway to the Sugar Network at this time, but expect most communication to happen over the Sugar Network support forums / knowledge base, which is also accessible using a regular browser: http://network.sugarlabs.org/ Regards, Sebastian ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
On 08/06/2013 03:06 PM, server-devel-requ...@lists.laptop.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Sameer Vermasve...@sfsu.edu wrote: Just noticed that on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XS_Installing_Software_0.7 it says that stable version is XS 0.7 and unstable is XSCE 0.3 Is this correct? Is XSCE to become XS 0.8? I am all in favor of the two projects merging, but as I understand it, XS and XSCE are two very*different* projects as of now. Some clarification would be great! This question has many interesting implications! While I don't know the answer to your question I do have some more specific follow on questions. Questions about today: If I am a deployment, large or small, looking to deploy a school server, which should I choose? and Why? If a deployment has the power for an Atom-based server, then XS-0.7 is the choice today. According the 0.3 release notes, XSCE is only supported on an XO. If I am a deployment, large or small, looking to make customizations to my school server, which 'base' should I choose? Should I upstream my customizations or should hold on to them? Customization has to used carefully. There is not a system administrator alive who has built a custom server configuration. None of that has any impact on server software development. For example, adding CUPS to support an attached printer is something that a deployment can do if desired. If I a contributor looking to help ICT4E move forward, which school server should I work on and why? I am not sure what ICT4E means (ICT seems to be used in education to mean studying computers as a subject, not using computers to learn). There are a number of important items still on the wish list. Adding the IIAB content is probably at the top of the list. Providing a way for a deployment to be 'librarian', e.g. with Calibre is another. Finding a way for teachers to make assignments, receive student submissions, mark them, and return annotated copies (digital copybook) is high on the list. Providing an email capability with client software on the XO and an XS facility (e.g. pop3 and smtp) which is capable of interface to Internet via removable device. Implementing Wikipedia in a child-safe form with fast full-text search. Providing an effective 'badge' mechanism to honor children who have demonstrated learning. There is no lack of things to do. Questions about the future: Is the XS feature complete? Does it do everything it can to add value to deployments? If there are ways to add more value, is there a plan or funding model to support that development? XS-0.7 is a baseline install. The question should be what can deployments usefully install on XS-0.7. If we view every change as requiring a new build, deployments are looking at huge expense. In Nepal, Abhishek and I had to download over 10GB of repositories to build XO-0.7 offline. That would take a decade at most of the schools I service (average download speed is 5kb/sec - with tens of restarts per gigabyte -not to mention loss of sleep restarting). Is the XSCE feature complete? Does it do everything it can to add value to deployments? If there are ways to add more value, is there a plan or funding model to support that development? Questions for OLCP: Are there steps OLPC can do to encourage deployments to fund further development of XS by OLPC developers? Are there steps OLPC can do to encourage direct development of XS by deployments? As mentioned, there are server developments at many deployments. What would be great is a co-operative team that would work to provide capabilities in a way that can be distributed widely. I am sure that Peru is working on a method to deliver email via usb drive (and internet cafes). I just don't have any visibility in the method taken, the technology employed, or whether the development can be applicable outside of Peru. Would it be effective for OLPC to support and fund future development of XSCE or a product based on XSCE? Would OLPC officially endorse XSCE as supported project? Questions for XSCE: What can XSCE do to ensure that it continues to improve by adding values to deployments with each quarterly release? What can XSCE do to ensure future development viability via community support, deployment support, OLPC support, or support through Activity Central? What steps can XSCE do to ensure that is solid base project for future product offerings by: OLPC-A, XS; OLPC-AU, One Network; Plan Ceibal, ?; OLE-Nepal, ?; Activity Central, Dextrose Server. Immediate questions: Is XSCE overstepping by have its wiki at laptop.org? Should XSCE remain in a user space at laptop.org? Should XCE have its own mailing list at laptop.org? Should it continue the current blend ofxsce-de...@googlegroups.com + server-devel@lists.laptop.org ? So I don't know the answer to your original question. These are the questions that come to my mind when I think about the relationship between XS and XSCE and their future:) I
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 15:33 +0200, Tony Anderson wrote: On 08/06/2013 03:06 PM, server-devel-requ...@lists.laptop.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Sameer Vermasve...@sfsu.edu wrote: Just noticed that on http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XS_Installing_Software_0.7 it says that stable version is XS 0.7 and unstable is XSCE 0.3 Is this correct? Is XSCE to become XS 0.8? I am all in favor of the two projects merging, but as I understand it, XS and XSCE are two very*different* projects as of now. Some clarification would be great! This question has many interesting implications! While I don't know the answer to your question I do have some more specific follow on questions. Questions about today: If I am a deployment, large or small, looking to deploy a school server, which should I choose? and Why? If a deployment has the power for an Atom-based server, then XS-0.7 is the choice today. According the 0.3 release notes, XSCE is only supported on an XO. Tony, that would be your choice to use XS-0.7, please don't put words in my mouth, I would use the soon to be released XSCE-0.4 on the same hardware. If I am a deployment, large or small, looking to make customizations to my school server, which 'base' should I choose? Should I upstream my customizations or should hold on to them? Customization has to used carefully. There is not a system administrator alive who has built a custom server configuration. None of that has any impact on server software development. I have, XS on F11/F14 and I disagree, it sure does as the underlying OS evolves, your customisations have to keep up, rpms may need to be re-compiled and the general adapting to the changes in the OS. For example, adding CUPS to support an attached printer is something that a deployment can do if desired. or adding Django, content, or anything else someone wanted to pay for. If I a contributor looking to help ICT4E move forward, which school server should I work on and why? I am not sure what ICT4E means (ICT seems to be used in education to mean studying computers as a subject, not using computers to learn). There are a number of important items still on the wish list. Adding the IIAB content is probably at the top of the list. Providing a way for a deployment to be 'librarian', e.g. with Calibre is another. Finding a way for teachers to make assignments, receive student submissions, mark them, and return annotated copies (digital copybook) is high on the list. Providing an email capability with client software on the XO and an XS facility (e.g. pop3 and smtp) which is capable of interface to Internet via removable device. Implementing Wikipedia in a child-safe form with fast full-text search. Providing an effective 'badge' mechanism to honor children who have demonstrated learning. There is no lack of things to do. That is kind of blurring the line between features and system administration functions. Questions about the future: Is the XS feature complete? Does it do everything it can to add value to deployments? If there are ways to add more value, is there a plan or funding model to support that development? XS-0.7 is a baseline install. The question should be what can deployments usefully install on XS-0.7. If we view every change as requiring a new build, deployments are looking at huge expense. In Nepal, Abhishek and I had to download over 10GB of repositories to build XO-0.7 offline. I think re-spinning the install iso is not that hard but you may need more than one CD or switch to the DVD format to fit all the needed rpms. That would take a decade at most of the schools I service (average download speed is 5kb/sec - with tens of restarts per gigabyte -not to mention loss of sleep restarting). I agree a fully offline install method is needed. Is the XSCE feature complete? Does it do everything it can to add value to deployments? If there are ways to add more value, is there a plan or funding model to support that development? Questions for OLCP: Are there steps OLPC can do to encourage deployments to fund further development of XS by OLPC developers? Are there steps OLPC can do to encourage direct development of XS by deployments? As mentioned, there are server developments at many deployments. What would be great is a co-operative team that would work to provide capabilities in a way that can be distributed widely. I am sure that Peru is working on a method to deliver email via usb drive (and internet cafes). I just don't have any visibility in the method taken, the technology employed, or whether the development can be applicable outside of Peru. You better have your ducks in a row when it comes to internet email, you can become subject to rbls and other such anti-spam measures by the isp or hosting service of the people you might what to email. The email subject needs to be
Re: [Server-devel] Questions for today
On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 16:46 +0200, Tony Anderson wrote: On 08/06/2013 04:22 PM, Jerry Vonau wrote: I agree a fully offline install method is needed. I think we are in substantial agreement. My model is that the deployment has someone with technical skills available who prepares the server for installation. However, at the deployment, the server should be stable enough to operate through a school year without hands-on system administration (except when the server hardware fails). Full agreement with that, except for perhaps performance tuning that might crop up with user demands. The community can provide the, probably volunteer, system administrator with a base system and a pantry of appropriate ingredients to tailor for a specific deployment without requiring the admin to give up his day job. It is perfectly feasible to install the school server from a usb drive. Yes, I'm one of original driving forces behind that. It is the build that currently requires internet access. Yup I agree, that is where the repos live unless you have created a local mirror for pungi to use offline. The pungi tool has been updated/replaced by lorax in the newer Fedora versions. The install at the moment requires a monitor, usb wired keyboard, and a usb wired mouse. Think a vnc based anaconda(the installer) install might be do-able also, to access the target machine not to retrieve rpms. These are not required after the install. By the way, the repositories need for an XS-0.7 build don't come close to fitting on a DVD. Just need access to the internet or local mirror to let pungi do its magic gathering the needed rpms and creating the anaconda installer. Jerry ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
