Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Charles Haynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I certainly want to see art that is critical, even disrespectful of religion, and I want to participate in the resulting dialog. Suppressing the expression obviously does not suppress the thought. The sad fact is that in India, not offending sentiments is more important than individual rights of expression, or freedom of thought. If you create something that offends any special interest group (read vote-bank) whether it be Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, farmers or backward castes you can be guaranteed that it will get banned. Unfortunately, intellectuals with respect for individual rights are not a significant vote bank. -- b
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
Biju Chacko wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Charles Haynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I certainly want to see art that is critical, even disrespectful of religion, and I want to participate in the resulting dialog. Suppressing the expression obviously does not suppress the thought. The sad fact is that in India, not offending sentiments is more important than individual rights of expression, or freedom of thought. If you create something that offends any special interest group (read vote-bank) whether it be Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, farmers or backward castes you can be guaranteed that it will get banned. Because our weasel Constitution explicitly makes exceptions for those things despite having freedom of speech. Compare our first constitutional amendment and contrast it to the American first amendment. ( http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/amend/amend1.htm Clause 3) Here is the restriction placed on free speech: quote (2) Nothing in sub-clause (a) of clause (1) shall affect the operation of any existing law, or prevent the State from making any law, in so far as such law imposes reasonable restrictions on the exercise of the right conferred by the said sub-clause in the interests of the security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court, defamation or incitement to an offence.; /quote That needs to be changed first. -- * Shiok Far-eastern Cuisine Indiranagar, Bangalore Visit us @ http://www.shiokfood.com Book your table online: http://www.shiokfood.com/reserve.html Shiok on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bangalore-India/Shiok/7498426855
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Madhu Menon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is the restriction placed on free speech: That needs to be changed first. You don't suppose there might have been some sort of logic behind this at the time it was framed? It, by all means, must change with in step with social mores but the fault may lie in the stasis and not the clause. -- Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org/ Join our Facebook Page too: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pratham-Books/9307274926
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
(2) Nothing in sub-clause (a) of clause (1) shall affect the operation of any existing law, or prevent the State from making any law, in so far as such law imposes reasonable restrictions on the exercise of the right conferred by the said sub-clause in the interests of the security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court, defamation or incitement to an offence.; Compare this with US restrictions on how much rope the 1st amendment gives you: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/timeplacemanner.htm In short, there's a 4 way test for government imposed restrictions on free speech: Test for Constitutional Validity of Time, Place and Manner Regulations in the Public Forum 1. Does the regulation serve an important governmental interest? 2. Is the government interest served by the regulation unrelated to the suppression of a particular message? 3. Is the regulation narrowly tailored to serve the government's interest? 4. Does the regulation leave open ample alternative means for communicating messages?
Re: [silk] The Great Firewall
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:11 AM, Udhay Shankar N [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can somebody who knows more comment? Yes, I was told this by an Etisalat sysadmin. Another Etisalat sysadmin was the first to practically implement Skype blocking. It's possible that the Middle East firewalls are much more effective because they're managed by Indian admins! Ram
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Thursday 15 May 2008 8:56:42 am Charles Haynes wrote: There are people who are offended by MF Hussain's art who find the political response to his art to be hypocritical - politicians react when art offends muslims, but they ignore art offensive to hindus. As a result those people feel they need to respond directly. Dead right Interesting you would choose that example. I assume you are aware of Marcel Duchamp's L.H.O.O.Q? In fact I had not heard of him, although a Google and one look at the picture tells me that I have seen it before and it is likely that I have a sub-conscious memory of that picture about which I have formed an opinion. Do you see violence as a legitimate form of criticism? This is an interesting question. Personally no, but that means zilch to Indians. As I shall explain below, the question itself may be a meaningless one for India. Violence is the most primal and basic response that humans display towards things that anger them. The behavior of Indians, where unmodified by fear of the Indian Penal Code often descends to violence. Man seen picking a pocket - thrash him. Bus in an accident? Stone the bus. Burn vehicles nearby. Fruit vendors fail to listen to calls to move out? A good thrashing should teach them With reference to the latter, educated and wealthy middle class residents of my locality have often said, The police are taking bribes from fruit vendors, which is why they are not thrashing them as they should. In the UK I found that anger did not seem to be followed by violence as easily as I see in India, but the Indian police are not always at hand so soon to enforce state law, as opposed to crude justice I think this propensity for violence needs to be remembered by people living in India. Indians of the social class that Silklisters belong to are often exempt from this violence because they occupy the exalted position in society that the British used to occupy. But a belief by people in this social class that the IPC applies to all Indians as it applies to them is surely mistaken. India is a country in which emotions and violence often overtake and outstrip the ability of law enforcement to apply the penal code. A failure to recall this leads to the basically meaningless question that asks if violence is a legitimate form of criticism. Legitimate or not, violence is what tends to happen in India far more often than decent society would like to see. Decent society are not bothered when violence occurs to offenders like pickpockets. But decent society tend to get uptight when their backyard - the arts and other niceties of life are given the same treatment as everyone else. Hindus are learning that intolerance works as a political force. How do you feel about that? I feel like laughing because Hindus had been convinced by Gandhi and others that they were required to tolerate some things. The charade could last only so long. Sooner or later, the real Hindu must show up. I could probably write a lot more to explain this - but will leave it for some other time. shiv
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
ss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Husain is a Muslim name. A man with a Muslim name has painted a picture of a Hindu goddess having sex with an animal. If Hindus were to invent the concept of blasphemy for themselves, there could be no better symbol than this painting to invent it for. Hindus do not have a pre-defined concept of blasphemy, but they have no dogmatic code that prevents them from inventing it if needed. In the 60's Malayalam writer Vaikom Muhammed Basheer published a collection of short stories titled A Bhagavad Gita and Some Breasts (Oru Bhagavad Gitayum Kure Mulakalum). There's no history of violence incited by hurt Hindu feelings; I'd imagine that the offence-induction potential of this title was hardly noticed. There's no question of a Muslim or even Hindu writer doing such a thing today. Kerala society has changed enough to harbour religious leaders offended by alcohol named Christian Brothers, caste-based groups bargaining hard using their assumed vote bank strength, and so on. I think these precisely are the kind of creatures that would have been fashionably scorned upon, in the more liberal days of past. And I keep wondering who invented this idea of using easily hurt feelings as a negotiation ploy. -- Don't you wish you had more energy... or less ambition? 9DB8FF06 : CB80 0BA6 7D13 B10A 6FBB D43E B4D2 28AD 9DB8 FF06
[silk] Pay attention, citizen-unit.
I am ambiguous about such a device, should it prove feasible to develop and deploy. What does the list think? Udhay http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7358863.stm Dull jobs really do numb the mind Mistakes can be predicted by patterns of brain activity Boring jobs switch our minds to autopilot, say scientists - and it means we can seriously mess up some simple tasks. Monotonous duties switch our brain to rest mode, whether we like it or not, the researchers report in Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences. They found mistakes can be predicted up to 30 seconds before we make them, by patterns in our brain activity. The team hopes to design an early-warning brain monitor for pilots and others in critical situations. The scientists say the device would be particularly suitable for monotonous jobs where focus is hard to maintain - such as passport and immigration control. Mistakes 'foreshadowed' We might be able to build a device (that could be placed) on the heads of people that makes these easy decisions, said Dr Eichele, of the University of Bergen, Norway. We can measure the signal and give feedback to the user that your brain is in the state where your decisions are not going to be the right one. Headsets could be designed to offer early warning of mistakes In the study, Dr Eichele and his colleagues asked participants to repeatedly perform a flanker task - an experiment in which individuals must quickly respond to visual clues. As they did so, brain scans were performed using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). They found the participants' mistakes were foreshadowed by a particular pattern of brain activity. To our surprise, up to 30 seconds before the mistake we could detect a distinct shift in activity, said Dr Stefan Debener, of Southampton University, UK. The brain begins to economise, by investing less effort to complete the same task. We see a reduction in activity in the prefrontal cortex. At the same time, we see an increase in activity in an area which is more active in states of rest, known as the Default Mode Network (DMN). Workplace safety This is not a sign of the brain going to sleep, says Debener. Autopilot would be a better metaphor, he explains. We can assume that the tendency to economise task performance leads to an inappropriate reduction of effort, thus causing errors. Device could help pilots and air traffic controllers maintain focus Since this state begins about 30 seconds prior to a mistake being made, it could be possible to design an early-warning system that alerts people to be more focused or more careful, said the researchers. That could significantly improve workplace safety and also improve performance in key tasks, such as driving, analysis of X-rays, or airport security screening. But MRI scanners are neither portable enough nor fast enough to be practical for these real life scenarios, so the next step is to see if more mobile EEG devices are able to detect the phenomenon. A prototype of a wireless, mobile, and lightweight EEG amplifier is currently in development and could be ready for the market in 10 to 15 years, says Dr Debener, who is based at the MRC Institute of Hearing Research, at Royal South Hants Hospital. But first, we must establish what is causing these mistakes, he adds. We do not know whether the change in brain activity we see has a causal link to the mistakes. After we establish that, we can try to develop monitoring devices. -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Thursday 15 May 2008 6:14:03 pm ashok _ wrote: In madras local lingo there is a term called dharma adi.. it literally translates to free beating (though you could extrapolate the actual meaning of dharma to it too..) IMO you have hit upon a fundamental streak in Indians - and not just Hindus. the concept of preserving dharma. Preserving dharma includes respect to elders and teachers etc - but also involves a sound beating - or even death of a wrongdoer. Many of these are actually misapplication of dharma and auto-interpretation of laws. The thief who is beaten is not reported to the police - the punishment is summary and considered complete. shiv
Re: [silk] On Intolerance -off topic
On Thursday 15 May 2008 8:23:13 pm Sajith T S wrote: leaders offended by alcohol named Christian Brothers, A friend of mine from Scotland is on the lookout for this brand. We were unable to find it in Bangalore earlier this month. shiv
Re: [silk] On Intolerance -off topic
It is a US brand (and a big one) of rum / port / sherry / brandy. Appropriately enough, from a company called Heaven Hill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Hill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ss Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:38 PM To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] On Intolerance -off topic On Thursday 15 May 2008 8:23:13 pm Sajith T S wrote: leaders offended by alcohol named Christian Brothers, A friend of mine from Scotland is on the lookout for this brand. We were unable to find it in Bangalore earlier this month. shiv
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:26 AM, ss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMO you have hit upon a fundamental streak in Indians - and not just Hindus. the concept of preserving dharma. Preserving dharma includes respect to elders and teachers etc - but also involves a sound beating - or even death of a wrongdoer. Many of these are actually misapplication of dharma and auto-interpretation of laws. The thief who is beaten is not reported to the police - the punishment is summary and considered complete. This is not fundamental to Indians alone. And I don't think it has anything to do with preserving dharma - real or imagined. I have seen first-hand, and I am sure ashok has also witnessed, such summary mob justice being meted out to pick pockets, glue sniffing street kids and many other n'er do wells in Kenya. One more definition of Dharmam (at least in Tamil) is charity/alms. I believe it is being used in this sense in the phrase 'Dharma Adi' - Every passer by adds his (it is mostly men (interesting how people tend to generalize from this sample of ~50% to all hindus)) contribution (as if adding a few paise in alms) of blows in meting out mob justice. Thaths -- Bart: We were just planning the father-son river rafting trip. Homer: Hehe. You don't have a son. Sudhakar Chandra Slacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
Biju Chacko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The sad fact is that in India, not offending sentiments is more important than individual rights of expression, or freedom of thought. If you create something that offends any special interest group (read vote-bank) whether it be Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, farmers or backward castes you can be guaranteed that it will get banned. Unfortunately, intellectuals with respect for individual rights are not a significant vote bank. I've always wondered how so many individual rights got snuck into the US constitution. I can't believe it was because the majority would have freely voted for them if they understood what it implied. Luckily, we have them anyway, and at this point it is hard for the people who don't respect them to get rid of them. -- Perry E. Metzger[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (2) Nothing in sub-clause (a) of clause (1) shall affect the operation of any existing law, or prevent the State from making any law, in so far as such law imposes reasonable restrictions on the exercise of the right conferred by the said sub-clause in the interests of the security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court, defamation or incitement to an offence.; Compare this with US restrictions on how much rope the 1st amendment gives you: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/timeplacemanner.htm In short, there's a 4 way test for government imposed restrictions on free speech: Test for Constitutional Validity of Time, Place and Manner Regulations in the Public Forum The nature of Time, Place and Manner regulations is important. They don't mean that you can prevent people from displaying a painting like The Origin of the World. They mean that you can restrict people from putting it in the middle of a street where it would block traffic. You can prevent people from playing loud music outside your window at 3am, too, but because it would wake people up and not because of what the lyrics in the music are. Time, Place and Manner restrictions can't pay attention to the nature of the content of expression, only to where and when it happens. 1. Does the regulation serve an important governmental interest? 2. Is the government interest served by the regulation unrelated to the suppression of a particular message? 3. Is the regulation narrowly tailored to serve the government's interest? 4. Does the regulation leave open ample alternative means for communicating messages? -- Perry E. Metzger[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
ss [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The behavior of Indians, where unmodified by fear of the Indian Penal Code often descends to violence. Man seen picking a pocket - thrash him. Bus in an accident? Stone the bus. Burn vehicles nearby. Fruit vendors fail to listen to calls to move out? A good thrashing should teach them With reference to the latter, educated and wealthy middle class residents of my locality have often said, The police are taking bribes from fruit vendors, which is why they are not thrashing them as they should. In the UK I found that anger did not seem to be followed by violence as easily as I see in India, I find this fascinating. In New York, where I live, one rarely if ever sees anyone express anger in that way, and certainly one doesn't hear the thought expressed much -- it would likely lead to people thinking far worse of you if you behaved that way. I wonder what the cultural history of the difference is. Is there an underlying assumption that justice will rarely be done and so it must be taken in to one's own hands? Perry -- Perry E. Metzger[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 7:36 PM, Thaths [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not fundamental to Indians alone. And I don't think it has anything to do with preserving dharma - real or imagined. I have seen first-hand, and I am sure ashok has also witnessed, such summary mob justice being meted out to pick pockets, glue sniffing street kids and many other n'er do wells in Kenya. The rule in Kenya is : 1) If you are a black man, and you are pick-pocketed / or bag snatched, you keep mum and move on. 2) If you are white / brown / or a woman, and you are pick-pocketed, you shout MWIZI (THIEF !!!) and a crowd usually beats the pickpocket to death (a few years ago they used to put a tyre around the thief's neck and set it alight... but nowadays used tires are hard to come by). (The reason for (1) being, its hard to distinguish between the thief and the victim... i have seen one instance where both the thief and the victim were fleeing for their lives)
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Friday 16 May 2008 12:10:10 am Perry E. Metzger wrote: I find this fascinating. In New York, where I live, one rarely if ever sees anyone express anger in that way, and certainly one doesn't hear the thought expressed much -- it would likely lead to people thinking far worse of you if you behaved that way. I wonder what the cultural history of the difference is. Is there an underlying assumption that justice will rarely be done and so it must be taken in to one's own hands? Many educated Indians as well as people unfamiliar with India find it difficult to believe how law and order in India (to the extent that it exists) rests on an unwritten covenant among Indians that can be traced back to what is considered as dharma or rules for preserving society. It is NOT the police, or the Indian Penal Code that is primary, but pre-existing rules in society. The Indian Penal code is a super-imposition on that. Where the penal code is not enforced, what is enforced are the pre-existing rules in society. And, yes, one could call it tribal law. But the tribal law of India is called dharma Study how people relate to dharma in India and you get an idea of how Indians behave. Dharma is non-religious and has nothing to do with any particular god. You will find non Hindus subscribing to dharma merely because the same simple rules are applicable to any human society that pre-existed modern state constitutions and law enforcement by state agencies. shiv
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
And, yes, one could call it tribal law. But the tribal law of India is called dharma Study how people relate to dharma in India and you get Have you, by any chance, considered the effect that a lack of faith in the general quality, honesty etc of local law enforcement has on mob violence or the lack of it? If a guy on the NY subway was caught picking pockets and the rest of the passengers beat him up, chances are they would all end up facing felony assault charges. And a spell in a US federal pen isn't fun (though, admittedly, they're going to feel like the president's suite at a Marriott compared to an Indian jail cell..) - besides the kind of effect a felony sentence has on the rest of your career.
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Friday 16 May 2008 8:34:36 am Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Have you, by any chance, considered the effect that a lack of faith in the general quality, honesty etc of local law enforcement has on mob violence or the lack of it? I am currently reading a book by a Sankaran Nair who once headed the Intelligence Bureau and RAW (the CIA equivalent of India) The book is entitled Inside IB and RAW. The book itself says very very little about what the IB or RAW might do, but the title is merely an excuse for writing a personal autobiography of a high-caste Mallu who received a propah British education in an era when colonials in India got proper education in a British system. What is fascinating is the stories he tells of police action in the pre-independence era (1940s I guess) The seniormost officers were always British. The junior officers were increasingly Indian - and Nair was one of them. The police were under pressure to prove that they were good at their job. Nair relates what he says is a typical story in rural/small town India A local wealthy and influential man gets murdered. If the police begin investigation in the usual way, they get blamed for inefficiency and the British have a law and order problem on their hands. So a simple solution is to catch a few people from the local criminal tribes (sic) and extract a confession from them. In fact this elegant solution would please the British senior officer more because he then would not have to be answerable to his superiors for not solving a crime and creating a law and order problem sparked by supporters of the murdered wealthy, influential man. The officer would then reward this performing junior in some way. What we retain in India is exactly this system. And just like in the British days you and I, because of our wealth, education and station in society, fall on the same side as the British and the brown sahibs. To those who face the brunt of this justice - dharma is the only solution. While we curse the Indian police we must recall that our social class benefits most from this corrupt system, but our safety and security in day to day life is often related to the dharmic rules that operate in society and not the police. By passing the blame on to the police we are in a sense washing our own sins off. along with any sense of responsibility for setting the system right. shiv
Re: [silk] On Intolerance
On Friday 16 May 2008 8:34:36 am Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: And a spell in a US federal pen isn't fun (though, admittedly, they're going to feel like the president's suite at a Marriott compared to an Indian jail cell..) Wrong. If you are an influential prisoner, you will have a comfortable bed, private toilet, cellphone, TV, cuisine of your choice, women and maybe even arms in an Indian cell. And you can stand for election. This is not praiseworthy, but to imagine that prisoners have a worse environment in Indian jails compared to US jails is forgetting they way things work for some people in India. Even prisoners. The same corruption that arrests criminal tribes for crimes they did not commit ensures that people with money get comforts in jail. shiv
Re: [silk] On Intolerance -off topic (ss)
On Thu, 15 May 2008 21:37:52 +0530, ss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : On Thursday 15 May 2008 8:23:13 pm Sajith T S wrote: leaders offended by alcohol named Christian Brothers, A friend of mine from Scotland is on the lookout for this brand. We were unable to find it in Bangalore earlier this month. shiv Hmm...now that you mention, I do not recall seeing it on Shelves of the Thekhas (liquor shop) in New Delhi [actually, read that as South Delhi] last winter. If I find it, would you like me to pick up one for you / your friend? - Anil KUMAR
Re: [silk] On Intolerance -off topic (ss)
Christian Brothers was a brand in California (they produced brandy and wine) for several decades. They really were Christian Brothers as the establishment was run by Franciscan monks (see http:// www.christianbrothersbrandy.com/history.html for a nice picture of their former winery on Hwy 29 in Napa County...now the home of the Culinary Institute of America (an upscale cooking school) http:// www.inetours.com/PagesWT/WTLndmrkVws/Culinary_Inst.html. When I was a child we always stopped off at Christian Brothers on our way home from vacation. It was the first cellar I ever visited and it was cool even when the outside temp got up around 40C because the building was made of stone and the cellar was underground. Danese On May 15, 2008, at 8:54 PM, Anil Kumar wrote: On Thu, 15 May 2008 21:37:52 +0530, ss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : On Thursday 15 May 2008 8:23:13 pm Sajith T S wrote: leaders offended by alcohol named Christian Brothers, A friend of mine from Scotland is on the lookout for this brand. We were unable to find it in Bangalore earlier this month. shiv Hmm...now that you mention, I do not recall seeing it on Shelves of the Thekhas (liquor shop) in New Delhi [actually, read that as South Delhi] last winter. If I find it, would you like me to pick up one for you / your friend? - Anil KUMAR
