Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: Hello: I'd like to state that by my true faith and belief, an avatar of the Flying Spaghetti Monster -- the Moderately Mobile Shavige Baath -- was born on the outskirts of Agra a gazillion years ago. All true Pastafarians revere this spot. However, in the intervening period some pesky invading Islamic terrorists...err...invaders defiled the spot by burying some woman or other there. The Curch of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to reclaim the spot, knock down whatever nonsense is there and build something more pasta-like. Who's with me? Sorry brother, I too am a Pastafarian but I believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster and all avatars and forms of it are born and seen at their regal best in Nigella Lawson's kitchen. The basis for my faith is my daily sojourn through the medium of a chalchitra. What's your basis?
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Monday 04 Oct 2010 9:34:33 am Deepa Mohan wrote: Recently, I have become involved in volunteer birding...volunteers go on birdwatching trip with schoolchildren, to introduce them to the natural world all around them (I don't concentrate only on the birds!)...and I have found that several schools for the alleged underprivileged children, provide so many facilities for them that I don't want to tag the children with the underprivileged appellation at all! I was so impressed with the children, and the teachers, of Parikrama Foundation, and Ananya in Bellandur. By the time a child reaches std 8 in India about 60 to 90% of parents of children in that class are usually demanding that the school ensures good performance in maths and science so that the child can become a doctor or engineer.(in IIT of course) The humanities get forgotten, and sports gradually takes a back seat. By 9th standard about half a typical school class is alrady attending extra classes between 6 and 8 AM and later 6 and 9 PM so that the child can perform well in the IIT, AIEEE or medical entrance exams. The remaining children - whose parents imagine that that their child should have a normal life do not do this. Most children muddle through till the 10th std. After 10 of course are 11th and 12. That is when all pretence of education for anything other than engineering or medicine are given up. Since half the class are already attending extra coaching the teacher can skim through complex trigonometry and calculus and the parents who do not send their child for extra classes might find that their child is unable to cope. It is another matter that the children who are attendng classes from 6 AM to 8 PM every day are also going insane separately. Everyone is trying to reach for the insane goal of knowing what frist eyar engineering and medicine students know - becasue that is what entrance exams demand. if the school can't offer this - the school loses out and does not attract kids. I will try and draw a grahical representation of my thoughts on this, (I hope it works) There are two lines of dashes below and a line of asterisks below that. Both lines are limited by and . The line of dashes on the left represents school knowlegde up to std 12 and the one to its right is college knowledge imparted in he first year. One is supposed to take over where the other left off (in theory). In practice te school is forced to attempt to teach the child the knowldge encompassd by the line of asterisks because college entrance exams in India go far beyond school knowledge. Stupid but true. 12th std--1st year med/engg- entrance exam requirement What happens is that schools do not stop at coaching for the 12th std curriculum. They force children to move ahead and learn the 1st year college requrements because entrance exams demand that. Unless school children do well in the entrance exams the schools cannot advertise themselves as successful So it is a complex mesh of parental aspiration, reputation of profession and college, reputation of school, actual content of school curriculum as determined by the exam board (like ICSC, CBSE or SSLC) and the entrance exam requirements that all interact together to drive our children to suicide. Anyone who thinks his child might get away may be in for a rude shock. I say this as a warning. shiv
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
Biju Chacko wrote: Who's with me? I must be, as a devoted pastafarian. It's painful for me to admit my guilty ignorance of your wonderful branch of the True Church - the Moderately Mobile Shavige Baath. g
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Monday 04 Oct 2010 9:24:43 am Biju Chacko wrote: My gut feel is that with increasing numbers of parents who are dissatisfied with the education that they received, simple economics is going to drive development of more progressive schools. Unfortunately, as with most so-called progress in India this will probably benefit only us -- the rich, well educated elite. -- b I wish your child luck. I presume you have actually seen a child reach std 10 in India before writing your conclusions about the Indian education system. I hope your feelings are true for the sake of children in india. But i see nothing that changes my view. The rich elite don't escape. They only hack the system as best they can. The others don't have the financial clout to do that. And schools can't help. It gets worse in college. shiv
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Sunday 03 Oct 2010 12:16:50 pm Heather Madrone wrote: Oh, the children have friends all right, and some of them are even their own ages. There are plenty of opportunities for children to mix with others their own age: sports activities, park days, theatre programs, choir, dance, scouting, church, etc. I showed your mail to my wife Shashi who is also deeply intersted in this. One of her pet peeves is why children are rigidly clubbed by age in schools. I was reminded of a study (in the US I think) that showed how children born in the first half of the year were on average better at sport than children born in the second half of the year. The reason was that in a given class, little children born earlier in a given year are just that much older and physically bigger and stronger than children born later who are just a little youner and smaller. When you are 6 years old, 6 or 7 months make a big difference. The same holds true for learning other skills. But the education system is too dumb to undertand. shiv
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
On Monday 04 Oct 2010 9:58:36 am Biju Chacko wrote: Hello: I'd like to state that by my true faith and belief, an avatar of the Flying Spaghetti Monster -- the Moderately Mobile Shavige Baath -- was born on the outskirts of Agra a gazillion years ago. All true Pastafarians revere this spot. However, in the intervening period some pesky invading Islamic terrorists...err...invaders defiled the spot by burying some woman or other there. The Curch of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to reclaim the spot, knock down whatever nonsense is there and build something more pasta-like. Who's with me? -- b Do you have a caste certificate? Then a lot of this trouble can be bypassed. Or else you have to play minority card. If you are a TamBram - you can stuff it. You are not eligible for either. shiv
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
On 04-Oct-10 7:46 PM, ss wrote: Who's with me? -- b Do you have a caste certificate? Then a lot of this trouble can be bypassed. Or else you have to play minority card. If you are a TamBram - you can stuff it. You are not eligible for either. Biju, AFAIK, is neither Tam nor Bram, though by a complex series of events, he can claim cousinship of a sort with me. Not that he asked for it, mind [1]. Udhay [1] This line added to preempt Ram/IG. -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to state that by my true faith and belief, an avatar of the Flying Spaghetti Monster -- the Moderately Mobile Shavige Baath -- was born on the outskirts of Agra a gazillion years ago. All true Pastafarians revere this spot. However, in the intervening period some pesky invading Islamic terrorists...err...invaders defiled the spot by burying some woman or other there. The Curch of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to reclaim the spot, knock down whatever nonsense is there and build something more pasta-like. I declare that this Shavige religion of yours is faux. The Real Noodle In The Sky visited us in the form of the venerable Pho. Thaths -- Marge: Quick, somebody perform CPR! Homer: Umm (singing) I see a bad moon rising. Marge: That's CCR! Homer: Looks like we're in for nasty weather. Sudhakar Chandra Slacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On 4 October 2010 19:01, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday 04 Oct 2010 9:24:43 am Biju Chacko wrote: My gut feel is that with increasing numbers of parents who are dissatisfied with the education that they received, simple economics is going to drive development of more progressive schools. Unfortunately, as with most so-called progress in India this will probably benefit only us -- the rich, well educated elite. -- b I wish your child luck. I presume you have actually seen a child reach std 10 in India before writing your conclusions about the Indian education system. You are not required to have the Std. 10 exam certificate (not sure about 12th). I did my 10th in the US and got a certificate from IAU (Indian Association of Universities) that stated by 10th education in the US was equivalent to the 10th standard exam. I haven't faced any issues in getting admission to undergrad or post grad courses in India because of this. I am assuming a school could just get a blanket certification for all their students if their system differs from the standard syllabi. I should mention that competing with other students on the entrance exams of course is a different matter. I somehow managed because I went through 11th and 12th in India and the standard crash course for engineering entrance exams. Kiran
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 6:31 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: I wish your child luck. I presume you have actually seen a child reach std 10 in India before writing your conclusions about the Indian education system. Here is a great video from a contemporary school goer's PoV: http://www.youtube.com/user/killcure#p/u/5/uILmQEiwGs8 I'm glad the educational system has not managed to completely crush the creativity of some young people. Thaths -- Marge: Quick, somebody perform CPR! Homer: Umm (singing) I see a bad moon rising. Marge: That's CCR! Homer: Looks like we're in for nasty weather. Sudhakar Chandra Slacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
You mean the venerable Phở. As in our sacred hymn: Psycho killer qu'est-ce c'est Phở Phở Phở Phở Phở Phở Phở Phở Phở Phở -T On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to state that by my true faith and belief, an avatar of the Flying Spaghetti Monster -- the Moderately Mobile Shavige Baath -- was born on the outskirts of Agra a gazillion years ago. All true Pastafarians revere this spot. However, in the intervening period some pesky invading Islamic terrorists...err...invaders defiled the spot by burying some woman or other there. The Curch of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to reclaim the spot, knock down whatever nonsense is there and build something more pasta-like. I declare that this Shavige religion of yours is faux. The Real Noodle In The Sky visited us in the form of the venerable Pho. Thaths -- Marge: Quick, somebody perform CPR! Homer: Umm (singing) I see a bad moon rising. Marge: That's CCR! Homer: Looks like we're in for nasty weather. Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
I showed your mail to my wife Shashi who is also deeply intersted in this. One of her pet peeves is why children are rigidly clubbed by age in schools. I was reminded of a study (in the US I think) that showed how children born in the first half of the year were on average better at sport than children born in the second half of the year. The reason was that in a given class, little children born earlier in a given year are just that much older and physically bigger and stronger than children born later who are just a little youner and smaller. When you are 6 years old, 6 or 7 months make a big difference. The same holds true for learning other skills. But the education system is too dumb to undertand. My son's school, which is not that mainstream, has such activities. They have a mixed age group, the kids in nursery do stuff together during such sessions. Similarly class 1-4 get together, grouped by house colours, on projects. Recently each house did a project on some state of India, there was enormous effort put in by each kid over a month, and each child got to do and learn something; they presented it all one day, inviting all parents, showing off their creations and knowledge from weaving to food items to wildlife...I appreciate the teachers who mentored them.. I think Biju's right, there is a small but definite minority, that is changing. -Meera
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
So it is a complex mesh of parental aspiration, reputation of profession and college, reputation of school, actual content of school curriculum as determined by the exam board (like ICSC, CBSE or SSLC) and the entrance exam requirements that all interact together to drive our children to suicide. Anyone who thinks his child might get away may be in for a rude shock. I say this as a warning. shiv Education is the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent. John Maynard Keynes I struggle against the schooling my son recieves, in that he is given *facts* as opposed to the reasoning that allowed us to arrive at those facts. Given that they are only the best theories which fit observations so far... Learning is for life and I'd rather he was taught the processes that allow us to continually learn and assimilate raw data and formulate new theories and hypothesese. Alas, time is not on my side and my current circumstances don't allow for home schooling and my time to him vs school is woefully inadequate. I can only hope I can do the best I can. Howevewr, I have a question for the list... Given the huge population of India, what is the percentage of young adults studying engineering or medicine? What of the percentage (who can quantify?) that can never conceive the idea of going to a school, college, or university that offer these courses? Keith
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Tuesday 05 Oct 2010 3:44:26 am keith.adam0 wrote: Given the huge population of India, what is the percentage of young adults studying engineering or medicine? What of the percentage (who can quantify?) that can never conceive the idea of going to a school, college, or university that offer these courses? When I was a young man (I joined college in 1972) it was mainly the elite who entered college and among them the particular courses that were thought to guarantee employment were engineering and medicine and there was intesnse competition for those courses. But competition in those days was nothing compared to today. India produces 400,000 engineers a year (and 100,000 of them are employable as engineers) India produces perhaps 20,000 to 30,000 medical graduates a year. If you take the total figure as half a million you have to set that up against (I'm guessing) about 18-20 million people reaching the age of 18 every year. Since those half million engineering and medical seats represent (in the minds of Indians) the top of the heap - they are aspirational and a school system that does not gear a child up for engineering or medicine will be rejected in India. A healthy society requires people other than doctors and engineers and some form of education is necessary. Many children figure out what they need to fall back on once they do not get that prized engineering or medicine seat (to the great disappointment of many parents) . Schools do not guide or equip children to become anything else. Colleges do. Children are efectively asked to choose between engineering or medicine by the time they are 15 years old and failing that they have to start wondering what else it is that they can do. This is less true for the elite who are able to reel off a list of lucrative alternative vocations. But for a school going child who has no intention of becoming a doctor or engineer, it is what we discussed earlier - tough shit. The elite in India send their kids to fancy schools who charge good money to fulfil the requirements of those parents' dreams of an ideal school. The children in those schools are exposed to a few dozen of their socio-economic peers. It's only by the time a child starts approaching college that he begins to see what Indian education is all about. The child finds himself competing with perhaps a million others who are all equipped to write an engineering or medicine entrance exam and practically nothing else. shiv
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
On Monday 04 Oct 2010 8:27:11 pm Udhay Shankar N wrote: Who's with me? -- b Do you have a caste certificate? Then a lot of this trouble can be bypassed. Or else you have to play minority card. If you are a TamBram - you can stuff it. You are not eligible for either. Biju, AFAIK, is neither Tam nor Bram, though by a complex series of events, he can claim cousinship of a sort with me. Not that he asked for it, mind [1]. Well I was certainly referring to a related note - which is what the original question was all about Who inherits India? Who are the people to whom India belongs? shiv
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 3:44 AM, keith.adam0 keith.ad...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: Howevewr, I have a question for the list... Given the huge population of India, what is the percentage of young adults studying engineering or medicine? What of the percentage (who can quantify?) that can never conceive the idea of going to a school, college, or university that offer these courses? I'd disagree with Shiv on only medical and engineering...but agree that professional courses of all kinds are sought after. There is now Law, and Catering and Fine Arts, and so the list growsbut education in India is job-oriented and this is the reason for everyone wanting to get a bachelor's degree that isn't worth the paper it is printed on. Yes, I'd also like to know some figures... I will add a point of my own...most of us, on this list, are the products of precisely the kind of educational system that we can see so many flaws in, and don't want to inflict on our children (but, mostly have inflicted, anyway.) . But...we seem to have turned into thinking adults, with ideas of our own and the ability to think for ourselves. So...is the educational system all that bad? I don't like the stress it places on only rote memory, but rote memory is not an entirely bad thing, as any Indian, faced with a supermarket assistant who needs a calculator for the simplest reckoning, will agree. So...I am still looking for an educational system which is a good blend of the two types of education...the I teach and the you learn methods. HmmKeith..there is at least one person on this list, who grew up in urban India, who did not go to college...I learnt this fact only yesterday, and I don't know whether it was choice or chance. I've had long, pleasant, and sometimes intense conversations with this person. The lack of a college education, to me, has no relevance at all to anything...not the thinking, not the ability to earn the living, or be a good human being. Deepa.
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Tuesday 05 Oct 2010 6:59:01 am Deepa Mohan wrote: There is now Law, and Catering and Fine Arts, and so the list grows. Deepa. Currently Law, catering and fine arts are tier 3 (where medicine and engineering are tier 1). Tier 2 is Commerce But no child who finishes class 10 in India has an inkling of the type of skills and knowledge required to do commerce, law, fine arts or catering. However 100% of children leaving class 10 know what is required for engneering or medicine. For those of you who live in India I ask you to perform a simple experiment - which should be easy for silk-listers who are also book readers. The next time you are in a book shop ask for the text books for 11th or 12th standard, and then compare the material offered wih the requirements for an engineering, law or medical entrance exam. You will find nothing that helps a child write a law entrance exam. Catering and fine arts are not even considered options - except by the elite - who are (like I said earlier) able to reel off a list of alternative vocations. Catering has no entrance exams. Only one fine arts course that I know of has an entrance exam. And who in India actually thinks of nursing, physiotherapy, archaeology, economics as career options? Why is it that children who enter 9th standard know about engineering and medicine (and nowadays commerce) but get nothing in their curriculum to inform them let alone equip them to follow courses like law, fine arts or catering? shiv
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
Who inherits India? Who are the people to whom India belongs? The question is problematic, for it has to be answered with a list of identity markers. To address the Mandir-Masjid issue, the question needs to be different. Perhaps: How to remove discrimination on the ground on the basis of identity?
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
On 4 October 2010 20:27, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: [1] This line added to preempt Ram. You can't preempt Ram. He is a legal person born 4000 years ago, and now has a court judgement to prove it. Even physical structures can't preempt him, as a bunch of monkeys proved 18 years ago. Chuck Norris and Rajni can't begin to conceive of the merest possibility of dreaming of preempting him. He suffered from intense hypothermia as a result of an unfortunate experiment with liquid nitrogen in his search for propulsion systems for his non-preemptable aircraft, before ultimately settling on mulligatawny soup. Properly spiced, said soup has amazing propulsive properties. As a result of the hypothermia, his skin turned blue. Another unfortunate side-effect of the liquid nitrogen was emasculation, which, amazingly, is a condition inherited by all Indian men. And Shiv would say, the Indian state, as well. Ram
Re: [silk] FSM-janmabhoomi
Oh, I forgot to add that sacred cows make the best burgers, and that Onanism is a festival celebrated by all Mallu men. Which brings us back full circle to Biju. Ram
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: HmmKeith..there is at least one person on this list, who grew up in urban India, who did not go to college...I learnt this fact only yesterday, and I don't know whether it was choice or chance. I've had long, pleasant, and sometimes intense conversations with this person. The lack of a college education, to me, has no relevance at all to anything...not the thinking, not the ability to earn the living, or be a good human being. Not sure who this is - I can think of several on this list. :) I broadly agree with your point, but it needs to be noted that the lack of a degree adds a layer of annoyance to the process of finding a job - I have faced this myself, as I don't have a postgrad degree. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On 5 October 2010 09:41, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: HmmKeith..there is at least one person on this list, who grew up in urban India, who did not go to college...I learnt this fact only yesterday, Not sure who this is - I can think of several on this list. :) A certain double-barreled, birdwatcher who was staying with Deepa recently? You can't guess? But seriously, Deepa, there are many more people on Silk who dropped out or never attended university. Ram
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote:but it needs to be noted that the lack of a degree adds a layer of annoyance to the process of finding a job - I have faced this myself, as I don't have a postgrad degree. Yes, I agree...I mentioned 'earning a living' not 'finding a job'. I don't think that the person would have found a job through the 'regular' channels.
Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.comwrote: A certain double-barreled, birdwatcher who was staying with Deepa recently? You can't guess? No, I can't guess, who could this possibly be? But seriously, Deepa, there are many more people on Silk who dropped out or never attended university. You know, Ram, it's very funny...I detested my school education because I was made to take the Science stream (in fact, I rather think that much of my aversion to Maths is because of the way it was taught) but when I went to college, I totally loved what I was learning...I had a liberal arts education before that term was invented (it was actually referred to by my relatives as useless for a job!...which it probably was.)English (honours) and Philosophyand enjoyed myself very much indeed, continuing.. So I sort of dropped in...! However, I never ever wanted to do a doctorate and still don't feel the need. Yes, I realize that there must be many people who have not attended university on this list; in other countries, a college education is never the must that it is here. Deepa.
