[silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
Somehow he doesn't sound too happy... ;) From: crip...@pitt.edu Reply-to: cc...@list.pitt.edu To: cc...@list.pitt.edu Sent: 10/25/2010 2:04:15 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time Subj: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT) Not that the Indian Embassy didn't try their hardest to blow it. Here's the complete story in a nutshell in case any of you ever have to deal with them again. Their visa application isn't just strict, it's calculated to insure as few visitors as possible actually go to India. It is complex enough that many would by visitors would abandon it quickly. They want birth certificates which few Americans actually have. Most have hospital certificates of live birth which isn't the same thing and is unacceptable. And as Darwin found out, they are very difficult to find. Then the actual application is something like five pages long, designed like an application to be a nuclear engineer and requiring simply useless information that's time and labor intensive to figure out. Then the cost is ridiculous. Almost a hundred dollars, plus another $50 to air bill overnight coming and going. It took hours to get this work done. Then when the application arrived to them on 10/10/10, I got an e-mail back that I couldn't go to a two day medical meeting on a tourist visa. Had to be a one year Business Visa, which cost US$100 more and had to be accompanied by letters from the meeting organizers and my Department stating that I was a real doctor, never had any history of terrorist activities, had never been anywhere near Pakistan, didn't know anyone in Pakistan and I had money to get out of India so I wouldn't land on their welfare. The formats of the original letters were not exactly right and they had to be resubmitted in the exact language the Indians wanted. That took two days. Now I should add that one of the persons at the Visa office told me when I complained, that I was lucky I honestly told them I was going to a meeting. Most meeting-goers don't mention that fact on applications for reasons which should now be obvious. So whatever passes for the Immigration service in India is on the lookout for a bunch of foreigners congregating in a city all of a sudden, then looks to see what's going on. If they start sniffing around and find out these people are going to a meeting and only have tourist visas, they cancel the visas and these guys cannot get out of the country until they pony up for a business visa, which could take days and lots of new service/penalty fees. Then they wrote back and said they thought the Indian Government might be involved in this meeting, and if so, I would need yet another kind of visa having to do with government business (more money and more support letters). I told them this meeting was private and not associated with the government. They diplomatically said they didn't believe me and would check. That took two days before they couldn't find any government influence. Then they noticed that my passport didn't have the required two contiguous empty pages (mentioned in the fine print). The visa is on half of one page. So they overnighted it back to me. Every office that officially adds new pages has a 3 to 6 week wait. But the NYC office will do it in one day if hand delivered. So their sister service had someone walk over to the passport office in New York City (a few blocks) for placement of extra pages and pick it up the next day (US$250.00). Then the Sister service refused to overnight or hand deliver the passport back to the Indian Passport Office because they lose things, so they overnighted it back to me and I overnighted it back to the Indians next day. (US$27.00 per overnight for each of these mailings). They got it and finally sent if to the Indian Consulate for placement of the visa. The same Consulate that doesn't answer their phone and if they do puts you on endless hold then hangs up. The Embassy dicked around with it for a few days then sent it back. So Last Friday, 10/22/10, I got a message from Federal Express that it was to be shipped overnight and delivered here today Monday. OK. Then at 3 pm last Friday I happen to check the tracking number to find that the shipment of the airbill had been cancelled by them. So I called and was told that the visa had not been actually signed by the Embassy person and was not valid. So it had to go back to the Consulate Friday. But it didn't go back Friday, it went back this morning Monday. My plane leaves Wednesday morning early so if it doesn't arrive tomorrow Tuesday, that's the end of this story. So I called this morning to plead with them to please consider this an emergency. An expensive non-refundable, non-transferrable business class seat was on the line and I needed to be at this meeting to speak. They said they were pretty sure the embassy could get the visa back in time to Fed Ex it here by tomorrow. Maybe someone call the Embassy to get a human on the
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue, October 26, 2010 2:05 pm, Eugen Leitl wrote: Somehow he doesn't sound too happy... ;) And clearly hasn't applied for a US visa. Or maybe one from Argentina (which, for indian citizens at least, needs an affidavit sealed by a notary public) I just suppose he's lucky that someone in the Indian embassy didn't google for Dr.Crippen, find the first hit on Google and deny the application outright. -srs
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: On Tue, October 26, 2010 2:05 pm, Eugen Leitl wrote: Somehow he doesn't sound too happy... ;) And clearly hasn't applied for a US visa. Or maybe one from Argentina (which, for indian citizens at least, needs an affidavit sealed by a notary public) I just suppose he's lucky that someone in the Indian embassy didn't google for Dr.Crippen, find the first hit on Google and deny the application outright. -srs I agree with Suresh. This has nothing to do with being Indian. All embassies are this way - or atleast the ones you have intentions to visit anyways. This para had me laughing though: So whatever passes for the Immigration service in India is on the lookout for a bunch of foreigners congregating in a city all of a sudden, then looks to see what's going on. If they start sniffing around and find out these people are going to a meeting and only have tourist visas, they cancel the visas and these guys cannot get out of the country until they pony up for a business visa, which could take days and lots of new service/penalty fees. Sounds like an awesome plotline for Rajini's next movie :) -- --- The Blog: www.vijayanand.name Twitter: www.twitter.com/vijayanands
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
Not that the Indian Embassy didn't try their hardest to blow it. If it gives you any consolation, I (an Indian citizen resident in India) am in the process of renewing my US visit visa. The cost is higher, the form is longer, the questions are more onerous and after my (usually highly efficient) assistant gave up, and I had to hire an outside person at the cost of Rs. 2,000 just to fill the from - as that would take one entire day of an unbroken http session online. I have held a 10-year business visa before. And I still have no idea if I'll get a renewal. I do know for a fact that the costs are reciprocal. India charges nationals of other countries exactly what those countries charge our nationals. But now I sense the ordeal is also reciprocally arranged. Mahesh
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: find. Then the actual application is something like five pages long, designed like an application to be a nuclear engineer and requiring simply useless information that's time and labor intensive to figure out. This guy appears spoiled from not having to fill out too many visa applications. Good for him, though. UK visa application form was 21 pages not too long back; More recently it is down at about 10 pages for many categories. Ofcourse he can argue about the 'nuclear engineer skills' required to fill them out :-)
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
This guy appears spoiled from not having to fill out too many visa applications. Good for him, though. UK visa application form was 21 pages not too long back; More recently it is down at about 10 pages for many categories. Ofcourse he can argue about the 'nuclear engineer skills' required to fill them out :-) I've had to get 9 new visas this year. I find that the key difference between those that are onerous and not is the clarity and specificity of the necessary documents and procedures, not the quantum and detail of information required. The only time I've had difficulty was at the Italian visa service in India which invented new requirements at each stage of the process. That said, those Indian embassies I have interacted with do the country no favours at all on perceptions of efficiency or quality of service. Everything from their physical appearance to the demeanour of staff are at best dreary and at worst Kafkaesque. I was amused however by the reciprocal visa fees Argentina imposes only on citizens of the US, Australia and Canada which are explicitly justified as recompense for the excessive visa fees charged by those countries.
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Sriram Karra ska...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: find. Then the actual application is something like five pages long, designed like an application to be a nuclear engineer and requiring simply useless information that's time and labor intensive to figure out. This guy appears spoiled from not having to fill out too many visa applications. Good for him, though. UK visa application form was 21 pages not too long back; More recently it is down at about 10 pages for many categories. Ofcourse he can argue about the 'nuclear engineer skills' required to fill them out :-) Many embassies in India have multiple copies of mylast 3 years IT returns, 3 months of bank statements and I have lost track of how many copies of my appointment letter. How long do they retain them and why cant they simply check their own records for redundancy is something I have never bothered to understand. I dont know if visitors to India need to get finger prints taken but that is some thing we need to reciprocate. And we should use the dirty ink stamp pads for finger printing which they use in post offices Deepak
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai(OT)
UK visa office in New Delhi, India returned all the copies of documents that I submitted, when handing back my passport with visa stamp. This was for a short-visitor visa. I don't know if the procedure is different for other visa categories. -Anil Kumar Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -Original Message- From: Deepak Misra yahoogro...@deepakmisra.com Sender: silklist-bounces+anilkumar.nagaraj=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:30:28 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT) On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Sriram Karra ska...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: find. Then the actual application is something like five pages long, designed like an application to be a nuclear engineer and requiring simply useless information that's time and labor intensive to figure out. This guy appears spoiled from not having to fill out too many visa applications. Good for him, though. UK visa application form was 21 pages not too long back; More recently it is down at about 10 pages for many categories. Ofcourse he can argue about the 'nuclear engineer skills' required to fill them out :-) Many embassies in India have multiple copies of mylast 3 years IT returns, 3 months of bank statements and I have lost track of how many copies of my appointment letter. How long do they retain them and why cant they simply check their own records for redundancy is something I have never bothered to understand. I dont know if visitors to India need to get finger prints taken but that is some thing we need to reciprocate. And we should use the dirty ink stamp pads for finger printing which they use in post offices Deepak
[silk] Is There an Indian Way of Thinking?
Dear all, I read A.K. Ramanujan's 'Is There an Indian Way of Thinking: An Informal Essay' many years back in the form of a photocopy. Since then I've wanted to send that essay to some others, but haven't been able to locate a non-paywalled online copy[1]. Would any of you have a digital copy? I'd be most grateful if you could pass it on. Cheers, Pranesh [1]: Paywall copy is available here: http://cis.sagepub.com/content/23/1/41.short signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue 26/10/10 9:40 AM , Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net sent: On Tue, October 26, 2010 2:05 pm, Eugen Leitl wrote: Somehow he doesn't sound too happy... ;) And clearly hasn't applied for a US visa. Or maybe one from Argentina (which, for indian citizens at least, needs an affidavit sealed by a notary public) Suresh makes the point I was just about to make, but to add to it: I know on an intellectual level why we need to make it easier for foreigners to visit India (I even wrote an op-ed in the Indian Express a couple of years ago arguing for visa free travel to India for more countries - it's a perennial argument in the Indian government with the Home ministry usually winning on security grounds). But whenever I hear stories like this, my first reaction is usually Welcome to my world and a touch of schadenfreude. There's even a reality TV show (I'm not kidding) called UK Border Force which is all about the way in which the UK border authorities hassle people trying to enter the country (I imagine there is a similar US show somewhere). And to illustrate the attitude of the average US citizen to travel, I can do no more than to mention the signs at Heathrow airport in London. When you arrive at immigration you see a short, fast moving line at a sign saying UK/EU nationals and an *enormous*, slow moving line at a sign saying All other passports. I think the attitude of the average US citizen is summed up by the fact that the second sign also says in big letters This includes US citizens. Badri
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
I have heard applying for Brazil visa is also painful for US citizens. @timbray care to comment ? -- Vinayak On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.netwrote: On Tue, October 26, 2010 2:05 pm, Eugen Leitl wrote: Somehow he doesn't sound too happy... ;) And clearly hasn't applied for a US visa. Or maybe one from Argentina (which, for indian citizens at least, needs an affidavit sealed by a notary public) I just suppose he's lucky that someone in the Indian embassy didn't google for Dr.Crippen, find the first hit on Google and deny the application outright. -srs
Re: [silk] Is There an Indian Way of Thinking?
Google search: 4th result: http://www.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/Is_there_an_Indian_Way_of_Thinking_An_Informal_Essay.pdf Cheeni On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, I read A.K. Ramanujan's 'Is There an Indian Way of Thinking: An Informal Essay' many years back in the form of a photocopy. Since then I've wanted to send that essay to some others, but haven't been able to locate a non-paywalled online copy[1]. Would any of you have a digital copy? I'd be most grateful if you could pass it on. Cheers, Pranesh [1]: Paywall copy is available here: http://cis.sagepub.com/content/23/1/41.short
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On 26 October 2010 14:55, Sriram Karra ska...@gmail.com wrote: This guy appears spoiled from not having to fill out too many visa applications. About ten years ago, my then employer, a large telco, asked me to organise a series of lectures by tech celebrities to publicise the launch of a new ISP. I duly invited one such celebrity, a US citizen, and worked out dates and terms and so on. On the day he was to land, I went to the airport to pick him up. International flights land in India at the worst possible hours of the day. His was at 1am, I think. When he didn't come out of the airport till 3am, I tried calling him on his US cellphone. It went to voicemail because his carrier (CDMA, of course) did not have roaming in India. Then he managed to get word out that Indian immigration had detained him because he didn't have a visa. They had ordered him to be repatriated by the airline on the next flight out. The principal shareholder in the telco, now a member of the Indian parliament, woke up people in the Home Ministry in Delhi, and they managed to arrange a special, one-off, on arrival visa for our guest. The guest hadn't bothered getting a visa because as a US citizen, every country other than China issued him visas on arrival. And he was a well-traveled man. He was upset because I hadn't told him to get a visa. As an Indian, the thought that you could expect to get a visa on arrival had never occurred to me. Ram
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue 26/10/10 12:42 PM , Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com sent: On 26 October 2010 14:55, Sriram Karra .com wrote: This guy appears spoiled from not having to fill out too many visa applications. The guest hadn't bothered getting a visa because as a US citizen, every country other than China issued him visas on arrival. And he was a well-traveled man. He was upset because I hadn't told him to get a visa. As an Indian, the thought that you could expect to get a visa on arrival had never occurred to me. Very common. Have heard this story many times. Nowadays airlines check visas of everyone boarding a plane to most countries because otherwise the government of the country in which the plane lands will impose a fine for allowing someone to get on the plane without checking their visa/immigration status for the destination.
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On 26 October 2010 14:18, Mahesh Murthy mahesh.mur...@gmail.com wrote: If it gives you any consolation, I (an Indian citizen resident in India) am in the process of renewing my US visit visa. The cost is higher, the form is longer, the questions are more onerous and If you have a problem with the form, pray that you're not asked to attend an interview. You get groped, prodded, and relieved of your phone and any other personal belongings not deemed essential to the process of applying for the visa. Then you are granted the privilege of standing in a queue (no seating) of about 3-400 people for 3 or more hours while two counters slowly interview applicants. This after being granted an appointment. When applying for a visit visa for my wife and son, we waited for about an hour before my wife decided it wasn't worth that much trouble just to go to a wedding. As we were walking out, one of the people-herders asked us why we were leaving. Then we got called to a new counter and were processed in about 30 seconds. Ram
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On 26 October 2010 17:19, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: Nowadays airlines check visas of everyone boarding a plane to most countries because otherwise the government of the country in which the plane lands will impose a fine for allowing someone to get on the plane without checking their visa/immigration status for the destination. Yes, but this was before 9/11. Air travel was very different. Ram
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai(OT)
Carrier's liability is an old piece of legislation, dating to pre-9/11 times, and European and Asian airlines have routinely checked visas before people board, to keep out asylum seekers/refugees. Each non-visa-carrying passenger not given entry costs the airline something like $3000 the last time I checked. (They have to fly the dude back, too). The airline's assumption must be that Americans don't need a visa. Now Europe is much worse in giving visas. Americans are OK if you have a clean entry-exit record. I've had many foreigners assuming that they don't need an Indian visa. Those incredible India ads should say something like - come for excitement, come with a visa :-) Salil Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue 26/10/10 12:57 PM , Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com sent: On 26 October 2010 17:19, Badri Natarajan om wrote: Nowadays airlines check visas of everyone boarding a plane to most countries because otherwise the government of the country in which the plane lands will impose a fine for allowing someone to get on the plane without checking their visa/immigration status for the destination. Yes, but this was before 9/11. Air travel was very different. Indeed. Once when I was a kid (1991), I was flying to New York with my father. We transited through Heathrow and went through security again and the security officer found a large wooden knife in my baggage. It was a toy that I had forgotten to take out when packing but it was six inches long and quite sharp. In those halcyon days he didn't even confiscate it off me - just put it deep in my baggage, smiled and said I shouldn't take it out till I reached my destination.. If it happened now, we'd still be in jail..
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:45 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: Indeed. Once when I was a kid (1991), I was flying to New York with my father. We transited through Heathrow and went through security again and the security officer found a large wooden knife in my baggage. Halcyon, indeed. Anjana, my daughter, travelled through JFK with a khukri in her hand baggage in the nineties! A few years ago she asked me if I could get her a curved sword for her belly-dancingI asked her whether she wanted me to stay in the US at the government's expense. Deepa.
Re: [silk] Is There an Indian Way of Thinking?
On 2010-10-26 16:56, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Google search: 4th result: Silk-list: the place where your lack of google-fu becomes public. (Heck, I even searched JSTOR!) http://www.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/Is_there_an_Indian_Way_of_Thinking_An_Informal_Essay.pdf BTW, would anyone have a *text* version of this? Need to send it to a blind friend, and would like to skip the hassle of OCR'ing. - Pranesh signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [silk] Is There an Indian Way of Thinking?
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.com wrote: On 2010-10-26 16:56, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Google search: 4th result: Silk-list: the place where your lack of google-fu becomes public. (Heck, I even searched JSTOR!) I prefer, Silk-list: the place where you can crowd soruce google-fu. http://www.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/Is_there_an_Indian_Way_of_Thinking_An_Informal_Essay.pdf BTW, would anyone have a *text* version of this? Need to send it to a blind friend, and would like to skip the hassle of OCR'ing. Google docs failed to OCR it :( Cheeni
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Ingrid ingrid.srin...@gmail.com wrote: I've had to get 9 new visas this year. I find that the key difference between those that are onerous and not is the clarity and specificity of the necessary documents and procedures, not the quantum and detail of information required. The only time I've had difficulty was at the Italian visa service in India which invented new requirements at each stage of the process. That said, those Indian embassies I have interacted with do the country no favours at all on perceptions of efficiency or quality of service. I'm in the process of helping my Dad get a tourist visa to visit New Zealand. All together it's a pretty pleasant experience. As Ingrid said, they have very specific requirements and providing them seems to be all they need. My Dad's visa application is on hold because they have some (reasonable) queries, but even that was not annoying at all. In fact the most annoying part of the process is the ridiculous attitude of my Dad's travel agents. They seem to think any visa application should be handled as if they were sending a newly graduated software engineer working for a shady bodyshopper to the US on an H1B for the first time. They sent my Dad a document list that seemed to be every document ever asked by any embassy in every case they ever handled. -- b
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
Biju Chacko [26/10/10 20:40 +0530]: In fact the most annoying part of the process is the ridiculous attitude of my Dad's travel agents. They seem to think any visa application should be handled as if they were sending a newly graduated software engineer working for a shady bodyshopper to the US on an H1B for the first time. Screw the travel agent. Book your tickets online and get your visa direct from the consulate / through vfs
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: And clearly hasn't applied for a US visa. Or maybe one from Argentina (which, for indian citizens at least, needs an affidavit sealed by a notary public) Really? I applied for an Argentine visa last year in Bombay and it was painless. And because I was going for a conference, they gave it to me gratis.
Re: [silk] Fwd: [CCM-L] Looks pretty good for me coming to Chennai (OT)
Gautam John [26/10/10 20:47 +0530]: (which, for indian citizens at least, needs an affidavit sealed by a notary public) Really? I applied for an Argentine visa last year in Bombay and it was painless. And because I was going for a conference, they gave it to me gratis. Delhi, and the semi literate UP wala who was playing visa clerk in an office that was basically the basement of the argentine ambassador's villa Not just a notarized affidavit, which I produced. The SOB wanted me to produce a FRESH affidavit that was typed, rather than handwritten by me before being witnessed by a notary. This desite my telling him (quite correctly) that I was going to a conference organized by the argentine government. I think a call from the argentine ministry concerned to the ambassador helped sort that little contretemps out.
Re: [silk] Is There an Indian Way of Thinking?
Here's an Adobe Reader OCR'ed version of the file. https://docs.google.com/a/edgeplay.org/leaf?id=0B_oayye0KbyZZDFmNjM5OTctNmRkYS00NTRkLWIwNGYtNjgzOWE5Nzg0MDVl -- Charles
Re: [silk] Is There an Indian Way of Thinking?
On 27-Oct-10 9:02 AM, Charles Haynes wrote: Here's an Adobe Reader OCR'ed version of the file. https://docs.google.com/a/edgeplay.org/leaf?id=0B_oayye0KbyZZDFmNjM5OTctNmRkYS00NTRkLWIwNGYtNjgzOWE5Nzg0MDVl Slipped by Charles. I was just putting a copy up on http://silk.arachnis.com/anthro/ Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
