Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Feb 23, 2012 8:49 AM, ashok _ listmans...@gmail.com wrote: Its interesting you mention the ming dynasty in this context. Sometime back i finished reading Charles Mann's 1493 ( http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-Columbus-Created-ebook/dp/B004G606EY ). there is a really interesting part of the book about the silver trade with the spanish colonies in the americas and its huge impact on the chinese economy. they would become so dependent on spanish silver that it became the de-facto currency in china ... and all this eventually led to the ming empires decline and fall. Yes, a rather sad turn of events. New world silver was impacting the old world like little else, the Mughals too had to deal with the sudden wealth of the traders. The Ming dynasty started with a policy of self sufficiency and lack of trade or money in the villages. The very rich and the very poor effectively didn't have or have the need for money. The Ming dynasty lasted nearly 300 years and with the move of the capital to Beijing many policies changed. The navy grew to enormous proportions both as a fleet and also as singularly large ships, a single Ming treasure ship was larger than all of the ships of Christopher Columbus put end to end according to some accounts. The famous eunuch admiral Zheng he invaded Sri Lanka and had the local king (Akalesvara) clasped in chains and brought to Beijing for no more a crime than an assumed insult to the Chinese emperor. The delicious irony is how each of the inhuman conquistadors, Christopher Columbus, Francisco Pizarro, Hernan Cortez all ended up either shipped back to Spain in chains, or put to death or died begging for a living.
Re: [silk] aqvavit
And all the other little decadences of the mings didn't have a thing to do with this? Just an influx of spanish silver into their economy? -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:50:59 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] aqvavit On Feb 23, 2012 8:49 AM, ashok _ listmans...@gmail.com wrote: Its interesting you mention the ming dynasty in this context. Sometime back i finished reading Charles Mann's 1493 ( http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-Columbus-Created-ebook/dp/B004G606EY ). there is a really interesting part of the book about the silver trade with the spanish colonies in the americas and its huge impact on the chinese economy. they would become so dependent on spanish silver that it became the de-facto currency in china ... and all this eventually led to the ming empires decline and fall. Yes, a rather sad turn of events. New world silver was impacting the old world like little else, the Mughals too had to deal with the sudden wealth of the traders. The Ming dynasty started with a policy of self sufficiency and lack of trade or money in the villages. The very rich and the very poor effectively didn't have or have the need for money. The Ming dynasty lasted nearly 300 years and with the move of the capital to Beijing many policies changed. The navy grew to enormous proportions both as a fleet and also as singularly large ships, a single Ming treasure ship was larger than all of the ships of Christopher Columbus put end to end according to some accounts. The famous eunuch admiral Zheng he invaded Sri Lanka and had the local king (Akalesvara) clasped in chains and brought to Beijing for no more a crime than an assumed insult to the Chinese emperor. The delicious irony is how each of the inhuman conquistadors, Christopher Columbus, Francisco Pizarro, Hernan Cortez all ended up either shipped back to Spain in chains, or put to death or died begging for a living.
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: And all the other little decadences of the mings didn't have a thing to do with this? Decadence rarely on its own brings an empire down, but it often precedes a fall. A new currency, whether it is silver or tea, or opium as China repeatedly discovered, can always be a cause for drastic changes in fortune. Britain ended up becoming an opium trader, and then invading China to enforce the trade because it didn't have the silver that China wanted for the tea.
Re: [silk] aqvavit
But by that same logic the brits with all their opium, cotton etc from india would have crashed and burned long back, not after labor era socialism, the loss of their colonies etc The east india company did go bust after a while but that was more due to mismanagement and costly local wars than an influx of wealth --Original Message-- From: Srini RamaKrishnan Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net To: silklist@lists.hserus.net ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] aqvavit Sent: Feb 23, 2012 17:10 On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: And all the other little decadences of the mings didn't have a thing to do with this? Decadence rarely on its own brings an empire down, but it often precedes a fall. A new currency, whether it is silver or tea, or opium as China repeatedly discovered, can always be a cause for drastic changes in fortune. Britain ended up becoming an opium trader, and then invading China to enforce the trade because it didn't have the silver that China wanted for the tea. -- srs (blackberry)
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: But by that same logic the brits with all their opium, cotton etc from india would have crashed and burned long back, not after labor era socialism, the loss of their colonies etc They've gone into a slow decline, or haven't you noticed? The pound is no longer the world currency, the financial markets no longer only depend on London, the Oxbridge circuit isn't the only place to get a world class education and on and on. The east india company did go bust after a while but that was more due to mismanagement and costly local wars than an influx of wealth The East India company like the Spanish conquistadors was chopped off at the knees by the monarch because it got too big for its shoes.
Re: [silk] aqvavit
Srini RamaKrishnan [23/02/12 13:18 +0100]: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: But by that same logic the brits with all their opium, cotton etc from india would have crashed and burned long back, not after labor era socialism, the loss of their colonies etc They've gone into a slow decline, or haven't you noticed? The pound is Yes. Post labor era socialism, post the loss of their colonies in the 40s and 50s. And an economy that was drained by world war II. The east india company did go bust after a while but that was more due to mismanagement and costly local wars than an influx of wealth The East India company like the Spanish conquistadors was chopped off at the knees by the monarch because it got too big for its shoes. hah no. rather way off I'm afraid. remember, the british government and the crown were very large shareholders in the EIC, seats on the board and such. take a look at the share price of the EIC .. 1753 - £195 1757 - £140 (Third Carnatic War begins, also 7 years war elsewhere) 1761 - £145 1763 - £175 (End of Seven Years War and 3rd carnatic war) 1765 - £150 (Clive resumes Governorship) 1767 - £280 (Clive quits Governorship beginning of Mysore war) 1769 - £280 1772 - £225 (Hastings as Governor General) 1773 - £140 1774 - £140 (Famine in Bengal) 1777 - £170 1781 - £150 1782 - £127 (Hastings condemned in parliament) 1785 - £130 (Hastings leaves for England) 1789 - £170 1793 - £200 1797 - £165 1801 - £200 1805 - £190 (Napoleonic Wars upto 1813) 1809 - £190 1813 - £165 1817 - £200 1821 - £230 so on and forth till 1857 when an enron like crash took place. Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan in the 1750s and 1760s. Then the bengal famine in the 1770s. A gradual recovery after that, mainly because of the industrial revolution and more raw material exported out of India to fuel it .. the 1857 mutiny was what put a stop to the EIC, which was found incompetent to actually govern the country, having treated it simply as a money spinner and ignored all the political crises they faced. That caused the british government to effectively nationalize the EIC and bring India under crown rule. Not as much too big for their boots as too incompetent and greedy to be worth all the trouble and expenditure to the crown. Remember, the company had its own army in India, and they were joined by king's troops when the 1857 mutiny spiraled out of control. Even after 1857, they retained the reasonably lucrative tea trade from India till 1873, and the company was finally wound up in 1874. Those figures are from Niall Ferguson's excellent book Empire, How britain made the modern world, by the way ..
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On 2/23/2012 6:38 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: so on and forth till 1857 when an enron like crash took place. No mention of Dalhousie? It was his wars, reforms and attempts to Empirify (Empirificate? Empiricise?) India that sucked the Company dry, turned India into a cost center for the Crown, and almost directly led to the revolt in the first place. Of course, opinions on this are still somewhat divided, but... Those figures are from Niall Ferguson's excellent book Empire, How britain made the modern world, by the way .. ... we can always rely on Niall Ferguson to come down firmly on the side of the Empire. I don't think there's a more dependable apologist alive these days. -Taj.
Re: [silk] aqvavit
Hah. Notice I didn't take much more than share prices and dates from his book. I had it handy and it was easier to get from there --Original Message-- From: Sirtaj Singh Kang Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net To: silklist@lists.hserus.net ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] aqvavit Sent: Feb 23, 2012 19:43 On 2/23/2012 6:38 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: so on and forth till 1857 when an enron like crash took place. No mention of Dalhousie? It was his wars, reforms and attempts to Empirify (Empirificate? Empiricise?) India that sucked the Company dry, turned India into a cost center for the Crown, and almost directly led to the revolt in the first place. Of course, opinions on this are still somewhat divided, but... Those figures are from Niall Ferguson's excellent book Empire, How britain made the modern world, by the way .. ... we can always rely on Niall Ferguson to come down firmly on the side of the Empire. I don't think there's a more dependable apologist alive these days. -Taj. -- srs (blackberry)
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.netwrote: But by that same logic the brits with all their opium, cotton etc from india would have crashed and burned long back, not after labor era socialism, the loss of their colonies etc The east india company did go bust after a while but that was more due to mismanagement and costly local wars than an influx of wealth --Original Message-- From: Srini RamaKrishnan Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Off topic. A question about netiquette. So Is it no longer gauche to top-post? Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 06:28:48AM -0800, Thaths wrote: Off topic. A question about netiquette. So Is it no longer gauche to top-post? It is gauche, but nobody cares about decorum anymore. We're all neanderthals now. Ooga.
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 6:36 AM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 06:28:48AM -0800, Thaths wrote: Off topic. A question about netiquette. So Is it no longer gauche to top-post? It is gauche, but nobody cares about decorum anymore. We're all neanderthals now. Ooga. On the other hand, I've had people go the way of the top-post because text input on a smart phone keyboard is as convenient as typing with two left hands. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:20:25AM -0800, Thaths wrote: On the other hand, I've had people go the way of the top-post because text input on a smart phone keyboard is as convenient as typing with two left hands. People voluntarily using braindamaged tools for their own convenience tops plain old courtesy now?
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Feb 23, 2012, at 9:13 AM, Sirtaj Singh Kang wrote: ... we can always rely on Niall Ferguson to come down firmly on the side of the Empire. I don't think there's a more dependable apologist alive these days. Amen and amen. jrs
Re: [silk] aqvavit
On Feb 23, 2012, at 5:56 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: The delicious irony is how each of the inhuman conquistadors, Christopher Columbus, Francisco Pizarro, Hernan Cortez all ended up either shipped back to Spain in chains, or put to death or died begging for a living. Dear list: I hope to have something poetic and profound to say about this delicious irony at some point in the recent future, if I don't forget what I want to say or run out of time. Meanwhile, thank you all for this excellent discussion. jrs
Re: [silk] aqvavit
Or because, on a blackberry, there's no way not to top post. Personally I don't make a conscious effort not to top post unless I want to quote some specific part of someone's message. -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Thaths tha...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:20:25 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] aqvavit On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 6:36 AM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 06:28:48AM -0800, Thaths wrote: Off topic. A question about netiquette. So Is it no longer gauche to top-post? It is gauche, but nobody cares about decorum anymore. We're all neanderthals now. Ooga. On the other hand, I've had people go the way of the top-post because text input on a smart phone keyboard is as convenient as typing with two left hands. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] aqvavit
Cheeni found that ironic :). And for every such empire builder type who died poor, there's no shortage of his peers who started out poor but died filthy rich. I wish we could say this was about natural justice coming home to roost after all that oppression .. -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:29:26 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] aqvavit On Feb 23, 2012, at 5:56 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: The delicious irony is how each of the inhuman conquistadors, Christopher Columbus, Francisco Pizarro, Hernan Cortez all ended up either shipped back to Spain in chains, or put to death or died begging for a living. Dear list: I hope to have something poetic and profound to say about this delicious irony at some point in the recent future, if I don't forget what I want to say or run out of time. Meanwhile, thank you all for this excellent discussion. jrs
