Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On 06/09/13 17:45, SS wrote: All this changed after world war 2 when European racism was beaten down to its current dormant state. Not as dormant as I'd like... There's a lot of outraged MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS ARE STEALING OUR JOBS AND CLAIMING ALL THE WELFARE STATE BENEFITS up here in the UK. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ being a prominently groan-worthy mouthpiece thereof. ABS -- Alaric Snell-Pym http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/alaric/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:38 AM, SS cybers...@gmail.com wrote: specifically demonstrate that the 1910 book reference is a one-off anomaly Any Indian author of a printed book in those years would have been forced to submit their ideas to British egos. Severe censorship laws had placed the written word under strict supervision. Assuming the writing didn't offend the British one still had to come up with a considerable sum of money, and the support of friends in high places to actually produce a book. The work of a historian is a lot of field work, and a lot less of theorizing. No Indian or Indian organization in 1910 had the money or power to perform serious archaeology, so instead they put out a lot of arm chair analysis. See PT Srinivasa Iyengar's History of the Tamils, from the earliest times to 600AD. Published in 1929, it offers inspired reasoning to make the case that Tamils conquered the Mesopotamian valley and started the Sumerian civilization. Until the discovery of the Indus Valley civilization (circa 1920) most Indians believed the 200 year old British hypothesis about the inferiority of their civilization. In Indian writing on history one can see this epochal effect. Pre-valley Indian authors rarely make bold claims about Indian ancestry. Post-valley there's a rash of over-compensation, and for the next 20 years or so the claims grow bold and ridiculous, but always in the non-threatening and non-verifiable ancient past. There's a reason most Indian epics don't carry an author's name. They thought it was egotistic to imagine the work belongs to the author when the author is animated by the Bramhan. Indians have never been very strong on recording egotistic history. What's the point when it's a cycle of endless lives reanimated?
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: You know, sometimes I think that Mr. Mahadevan may be as over-enthusiastic in finding dravidian connections for Indus script as some of the right-leaners are about finding Sanskrit connections. Oh say, did you know the Pallavas were the Pahlevis of Iran. ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Parthian_Kingdom http://iranian.com/History/2003/May/Pallava/ http://www.hindu.com/mp/2008/03/31/stories/2008033150300500.htm I think there's a line in the humanities (history, philosophy, the arts) that gets crossed often, even by the best minds. When the thinker gets carried away by the utter brilliance of the idea without pausing to consider if it can be substantiated in fact, or whether it has useful outcomes.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: You know, sometimes I think that Mr. Mahadevan may be as over-enthusiastic in finding dravidian connections for Indus script as some of the right-leaners are about finding Sanskrit connections. Oh say, did you know the Pallavas were the Pahlevis of Iran. ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Parthian_Kingdom http://iranian.com/History/2003/May/Pallava/ http://www.hindu.com/mp/2008/03/31/stories/2008033150300500.htm I think there's a line in the humanities (history, philosophy, the arts) that gets crossed often, even by the best minds. When the thinker gets carried away by the utter brilliance of the idea without pausing to consider if it can be substantiated in fact, or whether it has useful outcomes. The Lambadis are from Lombard. (insert lungi-tearing joke here)
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 09:29 +0530, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: You know, sometimes I think that Mr. Mahadevan may be as over-enthusiastic in finding dravidian connections for Indus script Problem is that there are very profound linkages between Dravidian and non Dravidian Indian languages indicating links that no one has explained properly. The fact that non Dravidian Indian languages (eg Hindi, Bengali) are nowadays classified as Indo European ( formerly Indo-Aryan) is a historic hangover from a European search for roots older than Semitic history (as found in Assyria) which caused much jealousy and heartburn among 19th century European scholars. It was their theories and machinations that eventually led to Hitler's pogroms. When Sanskrit was found in India, it was necessary to include the daughter languages of Sanskrit (such as Hindi and Bengali) along with European languages to claim the antiquity of the Aryan(==Northern European) line, but the linkages between Dravidian languages and Sanskrit, Hindi and Bengali were ignored and sidelined by a cooked up racist story that initially postulated European kinship with the fair complexioned north Indian Brahmin while dismissing the pigmented south Indian as black heathendom. I have a 1910 book that clearly refers to south Indians/Dravidians as black heathendom whose gross corruptions sullied the purity of the Aryans. All this changed after world war 2 when European racism was beaten down to its current dormant state. This racist balderdash was cheerfully swallowed by the fair skinned north Indian upper caste Indians, and later the Church got into the fray to rescue the poor (formerly derided and dismissed as dull by the same Europeans) Dravidians from the clutches of the horrible Aryan Brahmins who had relegated the darkies to their sorry state. An entire political class and Dravidian political parties have been built up on cooked up history. There is no such thing as Dravidian, any more than there is Aryan, although the southern languages tend to be called Dravidian languages. There are links with these southern languages all along the coast up to Gujarat, Sindh and further North - and perhaps as far away as the homeland of the Finno-Ugric languages. So a connection with Sanskrit would not be surprising, given that retroflex phonemes are common to Dravidian and other Sanskrit derived Indian languages but are absent in all other Indo European languages outside India. It is not clear that Mr. Mahadevan is wrong. That may be what upsets people who do not see themselves as right leaners The fact that issues of languages are linked with a political colour is indicative of the fact that linguistics the speciality moved out of science long ago and became political. Interestingly even your reference to right leaners in a discussion of linguistics is indicative of exactly which route these discussions take. shiv
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:45 AM, SS cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 09:29 +0530, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: You know, sometimes I think that Mr. Mahadevan may be as over-enthusiastic in finding dravidian connections for Indus script Problem is that there are very profound linkages between Dravidian and non Dravidian Indian languages indicating links that no one has explained properly. What is to explain? For populations to exist side by side exchanging cuisines, culture, genes and words is self explanatory and not profound. One sees Tamil and Malayalam blending in Palghat. Telugu and Tamil blending in Tirupathi. There are many more such examples. That said, linguists use tools more powerful than anecdotal books published in 1910 to support their case. And the consensus opinion among contemporary linguists (not Evil European ones of the 1910 vintage) is that South Indian languages (like Tamil, Telugu, etc.) belong to a family of languages different from North Indian languages (like Hindi, Punjabi, Gujarati, etc.). And that there was liberal exchange of words between these languages over the last few millenia. Also, the Tamil (words and grammar) spoken today is significantly different from the Tamil spoken in the Sangam period. To backport the modern similarities between contemporary Tamil and Hindi to Sangham Tamil and Pali is not how Linguistics is done. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
An entire political class and Dravidian political parties have been built up on cooked up history. There is no such thing as Dravidian, any more than there is Aryan, although the southern languages tend to be called Dravidian languages. There are links with these southern languages all along the coast up to Gujarat, Sindh and further North - and perhaps as far away as the homeland of the Finno-Ugric languages. So a connection with Sanskrit would not be surprising, given that retroflex phonemes are common to Dravidian and other Sanskrit derived Indian languages but are absent in all other Indo European languages outside India. When the Piltdown man was shown to be a hoax, many evolution-deniers used it as an excuse to say that evolution itself is a hoax. Similarly, as we improve our understanding of what race means, some people seem to want to throw out the fairly solid work done in understanding our languages. There are numerous linguistic features that are considered when classifying languages. Prevalence of retroflex consonants in Dravidan languages may often be cited as one, but that's hardly the only reason. Words for primary objects (i, you, he them etc), word order, cases case markers, inclusive exclusive wes, gendering, types of agglutination, negation etc are different enough that they are classified in a different family. The origins of Dravidian politics have about as much to do with linguistic theories as the origin of the Bible belt in the USA had to do with the Bible. Whatever narrative of history is presented, someone will twist it to suit their political needs. They are just convenient origin myths used to teach simplistic views of history. BTW, I just wrote an answer to similarities between Hindi Tamil that you may find interesting: https://www.quora.com/Tamil-language/What-are-some-important-similarities-between-Tamil-and-Hindi
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 10:43 -0700, Thaths wrote: What is to explain? For populations to exist side by side exchanging cuisines, culture, genes and words is self explanatory and not profound. One sees Tamil and Malayalam blending in Palghat. Telugu and Tamil blending in Tirupathi. There are many more such examples. Tsk tsk Thaths. I believe you are on the right track here. Would you be able to hazard a guess (or state from any extensive reading you may have done) as to how long the populations have existed side by side and influenced each other? That said, linguists use tools more powerful than anecdotal books published in 1910 to support their case. Indeed they do. But your response is disappointingly par for the course, being high on rhetoric and low on substance. I put it to you that you have actually not done any reading in depth and are simply trying to bluff your way out of this one. Please provide references to which tools you believe linguists use that are so powerful. What tools are you speaking of that would specifically demonstrate that the 1910 book reference is a one-off anomaly that can be discarded? I would be happy to see an analysis and critique of these powerful tools from within the community of linguists of which there are many, I can assure you. And do you believe that others must not judge the utility of such tools critically? I think we could have an interesting discussion here. The subject is a minefield and worthy of some debate, if it opens more eyes about what linguists have actually been doing rather than the run of the mill indignant responses that appear with boring regularity. Linguistics is full of angry people ready to fight. I would be happy to tell you what I think about any powerful linguistic tools that you may care to list. If you consult Uncle Google for that, I would be equally happy to see if you can come up with references that I have not looked at yet and judge them for myself. shiv
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:38 AM, SS cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 10:43 -0700, Thaths wrote: What is to explain? For populations to exist side by side exchanging cuisines, culture, genes and words is self explanatory and not profound. One sees Tamil and Malayalam blending in Palghat. Telugu and Tamil blending in Tirupathi. There are many more such examples. Tsk tsk Thaths. I believe you are on the right track here. Would you be able to hazard a guess (or state from any extensive reading you may have done) as to how long the populations have existed side by side and influenced each other? Tamil Telugu are epigraphically attested (in Asokan edicts) neighbours since at least about 200BC, but likely at least 500 years before that, so you're looking at a contnuum of about 2500 years. Tamil and Malayalam were basically dialects of the same language till about 1000 AD. But Palakad is a special case - apart from being a fusion point, like Kanyakumari, the Palakad dialect was heavily influenced by the migration of Brahmins from the Chola country between the 14th 18th centuries. It preserves some very interesting snippets of the Vaisnava Paribhasha from that time that have been lost among Tamil Brahmins. That said, linguists use tools more powerful than anecdotal books published in 1910 to support their case. I think we could have an interesting discussion here. The subject is a minefield and worthy of some debate, if it opens more eyes about what linguists have actually been doing rather than the run of the mill indignant responses that appear with boring regularity. Linguistics is full of angry people ready to fight. I would be happy to tell you what I think about any powerful linguistic tools that you may care to list. If you consult Uncle Google for that, I would be equally happy to see if you can come up with references that I have not looked at yet and judge them for myself. This page contains a good list of approaches linguists use to understand words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_linguistics . But if you really want to get deep into their application in practice, read some of Michael Witzel's published work (mainly because his work is on Sanskrit, which should be more accessible).
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On 03/09/13 13:52, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: I have degrees in fashion design, sociology and information systems. I dabble in history, language (speak/read தமிழ், മലയാളം, ಕನ್ನಡ, तोडा सा हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil inscriptions), culture. I find I lack the patience to learn languages when there's lots of arbitrary grammar and vocabulary to learn (I suspect that learning English as a first language has pretty much tired me out in that respect...), but I've always felt left out by not being much of a linguist, so I've been learning Lojban when I have the time over the past few years. Being a constructed language, and constructed by nerds at that, it's delightfully minimalistic and powerful, and by providing me with a core model of how knowledge can be represented, has made it a lot easier for me to think about the true meaning of statements in English too! I try to practice mindfullness, humility/kindness and progressive thinking. Good plan! -- Alaric Snell-Pym http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/alaric/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Venkat Mangudi - Silk s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: Go to a website dedicated exclusively to Gobi Manchurian of you want to be free from Madman, er, Madhu Menon. :-P Or perhaps one dedicated to the mallu variant, Gopi Manjuri. -- b
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Wed, 2013-09-04 at 12:23 +0530, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: where I grew up (Cuddalore) Interesting. I used to pass through Cuddalore (which I believe should be spelt Cuddle-oor, which is how it is pronounced :) ) with reasonable frequency. I studied in Pondicherry a long time ago and spent some of the best years of my life there in the 70s and early 80s. Cuddalore had the slowest train to Bangalore in the world - it used to take something like 26 hours (or was it 30 hours?) for 300 odd miles. The area is rich with some seriously ancient history. Cuddalore is one site where ancient Roman coins have been found indicative of sea trade with Rome a couple of thousand years ago. Even more spectacular is the finding of Indus valley like script on pottery in Nagapattinam south of Cuddalore. But nothing can beat Tiruvakkarai - a place with 30 million year old fossilized trees which I vandalized a few decades ago. I still have the stuff I filched. (Well actually I picked up loose bits and pieces lying around and left the tree trunks alone. I felt that it would be bothersome to carry a 1000 kg tree trunk on my bike) shiv
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Shoba Narayan sh...@shobanarayan.com wrote: From: Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.com I have degrees in fashion design, sociology and information systems. I dabble in history, language (speak/read ?, ??, ?, ?? ?, picola di Italiano muy pocito Espa?ol, read Brahmi and some Tamil inscriptions), culture. I try to practice mindfullness, humility/kindness and progressive thinking. Hi Kingsley: we met at the last Silk Meet. Have you been to Molkalmuru near Bellary? My brother in law is crazy about Brahmi and dragged me on a trip there. Very old inscriptions, although I can't recall if they were Brahmi. Must have been, right? Hi Shobha, Good to reconnect. I haven't visited places north of Bangalore in Karnataka, but Chitradurga seems to have a lot historic sites. I'd guess Kadamba inscriptions would be in halegannada script, but not sure. Do you know Iravatham? Not Indra's elephant, but the professor who is an authority on this sort of thing. Chennai based. Not personally, but I'm familiar with a lot of Iravatham Mahadevan's work on Tamil Brahmi and theories on Indus script. Great to have you on Silk. Welcome. I am a mindfulness wannabe but for now, I play n back 2 games on my iPhone. BTW, didn't realise you were friends with Ranvir Shah. I worked for him right after fashion school, and I'm sure he still remembers me. I'd appreciate a reconnect with him.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 9:33 AM, SS cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2013-09-03 at 18:22 +0530, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: ಕನ್ನಡ, तोडा सा हिंदी Nitpick about Hindi. The word thoda uses the retroflex phoneme for th which is थ Also technically I think is should be thodi si Hindi and not thoda sa hindi shiv Thanks for the corrections to my Hindi. I got a late start on it, because a) where I grew up (Cuddalore), nobody spoke Hindi and b) I thought I'd somehow be less of a Tamil boy if I learnt it :) Coming from a Tamil background, both aspirated (nitpick:थ is aspirated, not retroflex :) consonants and subject-gendered verbs/adverbs are very difficult, but hopefully i'll pick it up at some point.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
We might have met. Hi!
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Madhu Menon m...@madhumenon.com wrote: We might have met. Hi! Is there any corner of the interwebs that offer refuge from your presence? ;) Good to to see you, Madhu.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
Go to a website dedicated exclusively to Gobi Manchurian of you want to be free from Madman, er, Madhu Menon. :-P On Sep 4, 2013 2:09 PM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Madhu Menon m...@madhumenon.com wrote: We might have met. Hi! Is there any corner of the interwebs that offer refuge from your presence? ;) Good to to see you, Madhu.
[silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
I'm Kingsley Jegan Joseph, a denizen of many internet communities, from 4chan to imgur/reddit to fb/twitter. By profession, I make decisions, position, price market, write code, design and manage products for my 2 startups, TripThirsty.com (travel) and BiteMeCompany.com (cupcakes). I've worked in companies of various sizes, in India the US, from salesforce.com BNY-Mellon to my current 5-person teams. I'm now based in Bangalore, having returned from an 8-yr stint in the US and loving it here, recessions and exchange rates be damned. I have degrees in fashion design, sociology and information systems. I dabble in history, language (speak/read தமிழ், മലയാളം, ಕನ್ನಡ, तोडा सा हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil inscriptions), culture. I try to practice mindfullness, humility/kindness and progressive thinking. And ... back to your regularly scheduled programming! - Kingsley PS: There is always a danger, when sending this intro email to a new group, akin to merging into a freeway, of swerving right into the middle of a 14-wheeler of a conversation with no context. Here's hoping that doesn't happen.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil Welcome. Where did you learn Brahmi (or why did you choose it). Asking since it is a pretty unusual choice. - Kingsley PS: There is always a danger, when sending this intro email to a new group, akin to merging into a freeway, of swerving right into the middle of a 14-wheeler of a conversation with no context. Here's hoping that doesn't happen. You should find quite a few familiar faces here like me and Jace. Thanks Vinayak
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil Welcome. Where did you learn Brahmi (or why did you choose it). Asking since it is a pretty unusual choice. Self-taught, there are a lot of glyph tables online, and all Indian scripts being Brahmi-derived, very easy to pick up the concepts. Being into history, have always wanted to read inscriptions. Learning Brahmi allowed me to read Asokan edicts, which was pretty cool (even though the underlying Pali was hard, picking out place and people names was cool). - Kingsley PS: There is always a danger, when sending this intro email to a new group, akin to merging into a freeway, of swerving right into the middle of a 14-wheeler of a conversation with no context. Here's hoping that doesn't happen. You should find quite a few familiar faces here like me and Jace. Thanks Vinayak Thanks, good to see you too :)
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On 03-Sep-2013, at 18:37, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: PS: There is always a danger, when sending this intro email to a new group, akin to merging into a freeway, of swerving right into the middle of a 14-wheeler of a conversation with no context. Here's hoping that doesn't happen. You should find quite a few familiar faces here like me and Jace. And me I think - half of india-gii and ilug-* is also here. Welcome -srs
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
You seem like an Interesting Person, and that is what Udhay collects. Your only mistake seems to be to assume that 14-wheelers of conversations happen here. Pass along, pass along. Cheers, Deepa. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: I'm Kingsley Jegan Joseph, a denizen of many internet communities, from 4chan to imgur/reddit to fb/twitter. By profession, I make decisions, position, price market, write code, design and manage products for my 2 startups, TripThirsty.com (travel) and BiteMeCompany.com (cupcakes). I've worked in companies of various sizes, in India the US, from salesforce.com BNY-Mellon to my current 5-person teams. I'm now based in Bangalore, having returned from an 8-yr stint in the US and loving it here, recessions and exchange rates be damned. I have degrees in fashion design, sociology and information systems. I dabble in history, language (speak/read தமிழ், മലയാളം, ಕನ್ನಡ, तोडा सा हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil inscriptions), culture. I try to practice mindfullness, humility/kindness and progressive thinking. And ... back to your regularly scheduled programming! - Kingsley PS: There is always a danger, when sending this intro email to a new group, akin to merging into a freeway, of swerving right into the middle of a 14-wheeler of a conversation with no context. Here's hoping that doesn't happen.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: You seem like an Interesting Person, and that is what Udhay collects. Your only mistake seems to be to assume that 14-wheelers of conversations happen here. Pass along, pass along. Cheers, Deepa. What?! I am disappoint. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: I'm Kingsley Jegan Joseph, a denizen of many internet communities, from 4chan to imgur/reddit to fb/twitter. By profession, I make decisions, position, price market, write code, design and manage products for my 2 startups, TripThirsty.com (travel) and BiteMeCompany.com (cupcakes). I've worked in companies of various sizes, in India the US, from salesforce.com BNY-Mellon to my current 5-person teams. I'm now based in Bangalore, having returned from an 8-yr stint in the US and loving it here, recessions and exchange rates be damned. I have degrees in fashion design, sociology and information systems. I dabble in history, language (speak/read தமிழ், മലയാളം, ಕನ್ನಡ, तोडा सा हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil inscriptions), culture. I try to practice mindfullness, humility/kindness and progressive thinking. And ... back to your regularly scheduled programming! - Kingsley PS: There is always a danger, when sending this intro email to a new group, akin to merging into a freeway, of swerving right into the middle of a 14-wheeler of a conversation with no context. Here's hoping that doesn't happen.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: On 03-Sep-2013, at 18:37, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: PS: There is always a danger, when sending this intro email to a new group, akin to merging into a freeway, of swerving right into the middle of a 14-wheeler of a conversation with no context. Here's hoping that doesn't happen. You should find quite a few familiar faces here like me and Jace. And me I think - half of india-gii and ilug-* is also here. Welcome -srs Thanks Suresh.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On 3 September 2013 19:11, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.com wrote: You should find quite a few familiar faces here like me and Jace. And me I think - half of india-gii and ilug-* is also here. Hi, We met IRL sometime last month and since I will be Bangalore quite often perhaps we will meet sometime soon again. Welcome! -gabin -- They pay me to think... As long as I keep my mouth shut.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:24 AM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.com wrote: हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil Welcome. Where did you learn Brahmi (or why did you choose it). Asking since it is a pretty unusual choice. Self-taught, there are a lot of glyph tables online, and all Indian scripts being Brahmi-derived, very easy to pick up the concepts. Being into history, have always wanted to read inscriptions. Learning Brahmi allowed me to read Asokan edicts, which was pretty cool (even though the underlying Pali was hard, picking out place and people names was cool). Hi Kingsley, I've seen your name around. Don't believe we've actually met. Since you are interested in languages/scripts, you'll be interested in one of the projects I'm working on - developing a harmonious font family to cover all of the world's (encoded) languages. More details (including some fonts to download) at noto.googlecode.com It has been a fun experience learning about Egyptian Hieroglyphics, Sumero-Akkadian Cuneiform and Brahmi as we build fonts for those scripts. Thaths PS: For the cypherpunks of the list, we are also building a font for Linear B. -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
Kingsley Welcome to silk. It's interesting that this thread has not yet drifted. But I can see it happening very soon. On Sep 3, 2013 7:25 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:24 AM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.com wrote: हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil Welcome. Where did you learn Brahmi (or why did you choose it). Asking since it is a pretty unusual choice. Self-taught, there are a lot of glyph tables online, and all Indian scripts being Brahmi-derived, very easy to pick up the concepts. Being into history, have always wanted to read inscriptions. Learning Brahmi allowed me to read Asokan edicts, which was pretty cool (even though the underlying Pali was hard, picking out place and people names was cool). Hi Kingsley, I've seen your name around. Don't believe we've actually met. Since you are interested in languages/scripts, you'll be interested in one of the projects I'm working on - developing a harmonious font family to cover all of the world's (encoded) languages. More details (including some fonts to download) at noto.googlecode.com It has been a fun experience learning about Egyptian Hieroglyphics, Sumero-Akkadian Cuneiform and Brahmi as we build fonts for those scripts. Thaths PS: For the cypherpunks of the list, we are also building a font for Linear B. -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: Since you are interested in languages/scripts, you'll be interested in one of the projects I'm working on - developing a harmonious font family to cover all of the world's (encoded) languages. More details (including some fonts to download) at noto.googlecode.com A quick tangent - you don't have a font off the Noto family for Bengali, do you? -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
Wow, that's really, really ambitious. I'd love to know what tactics you use to maintain stroke thicknesses for intricate scripts like Sinhala or vertical-consonant-stackers like Kannada/Telugu. Good luck! Kingsley Joseph On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:24 AM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.com wrote: हिंदी, picola di Italiano muy pocito Español, read Brahmi and some Tamil Welcome. Where did you learn Brahmi (or why did you choose it). Asking since it is a pretty unusual choice. Self-taught, there are a lot of glyph tables online, and all Indian scripts being Brahmi-derived, very easy to pick up the concepts. Being into history, have always wanted to read inscriptions. Learning Brahmi allowed me to read Asokan edicts, which was pretty cool (even though the underlying Pali was hard, picking out place and people names was cool). Hi Kingsley, I've seen your name around. Don't believe we've actually met. Since you are interested in languages/scripts, you'll be interested in one of the projects I'm working on - developing a harmonious font family to cover all of the world's (encoded) languages. More details (including some fonts to download) at noto.googlecode.com It has been a fun experience learning about Egyptian Hieroglyphics, Sumero-Akkadian Cuneiform and Brahmi as we build fonts for those scripts. Thaths PS: For the cypherpunks of the list, we are also building a font for Linear B. -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:58 AM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sankarshan.mukhopadh...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: Since you are interested in languages/scripts, you'll be interested in one of the projects I'm working on - developing a harmonious font family to cover all of the world's (encoded) languages. More details (including some fonts to download) at noto.googlecode.com A quick tangent - you don't have a font off the Noto family for Bengali, do you? Sankarshan, The Sans font for Bengali (regular and bold weights) and Bengali UI (vertically constrained glyphs) are available at https://code.google.com/p/noto/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2Ffonts%2Findividual%2Funhinted Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On 3 September 2013 21:57, Venkat Mangudi - Silk s...@venkatmangudi.comwrote: Kingsley Welcome to silk. It's interesting that this thread has not yet drifted. But I can see it happening very soon. Welcome Kingsley. I see more meta-discussion about thread-drift than the actual thread-drift itself. I think that's a sign of something, I don't know what. Dibyo
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: Wow, that's really, really ambitious. I'd love to know what tactics you use to maintain stroke thicknesses for intricate scripts like Sinhala or vertical-consonant-stackers like Kannada/Telugu. Good luck! Sinhala is one of the ones where we are having a tough time coming up with a design that users like (and is harmonious with other scripts). A vast majority of native Sinhala speakers seem to prefer variable stroke widths in Sinhala fonts and react poorly to proposals with uniform stroke width. I think that uniform stroke width is actually easier to read for large blocks of text and it is a matter of overcoming the visceral reaction against it. Kannada and Telugu haven't been that bad. Tibetan and Myanmarese are more challenging. And then there is Nastaleeq (urdu) which where words begin up and to the right somewhere above the baseline and descend down and left ending at the baseline. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
Sinhala is one of the ones where we are having a tough time coming up with a design that users like (and is harmonious with other scripts). A vast majority of native Sinhala speakers seem to prefer variable stroke widths in Sinhala fonts and react poorly to proposals with uniform stroke width. I think that uniform stroke width is actually easier to read for large blocks of text and it is a matter of overcoming the visceral reaction against it. I don't know about uniform stroke width for all scripts. Bangla seems like it would be less legible without variable stroke widths. Kannada and Telugu haven't been that bad. Did you make the new Kannada script in Google Transliterate? If so, nice improvement over the previous one. I'm using it for signage. Vertical stacking of consonant clusters still hurts legibility though (no matter what font is used), but not sure what can be done about that. Also, the characters appear less rounded than what I'm used to. Tibetan and Myanmarese are more challenging. And then there is Nastaleeq (urdu) which where words begin up and to the right somewhere above the baseline and descend down and left ending at the baseline.
[silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
From: Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.com I have degrees in fashion design, sociology and information systems. I dabble in history, language (speak/read ?, ??, ?, ?? ?, picola di Italiano muy pocito Espa?ol, read Brahmi and some Tamil inscriptions), culture. I try to practice mindfullness, humility/kindness and progressive thinking. Hi Kingsley: we met at the last Silk Meet. Have you been to Molkalmuru near Bellary? My brother in law is crazy about Brahmi and dragged me on a trip there. Very old inscriptions, although I can't recall if they were Brahmi. Must have been, right? Do you know Iravatham? Not Indra's elephant, but the professor who is an authority on this sort of thing. Chennai based. Great to have you on Silk. Welcome. I am a mindfulness wannabe but for now, I play n back 2 games on my iPhone.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, 2013-09-03 at 18:22 +0530, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: ಕನ್ನಡ, तोडा सा हिंदी Welcome Two comments The first language seems to read Kannada but uses Telugu (or some other unfamiliar) script if I am not mistaken. It seems to read K-N-N-D which is like a transcription of the English spelling of kannada into the wrong font. Maybe what I am seeing what Evolution mail thinks it is, but the word is not showing up right in Kannada. Nitpick about Hindi. The word thoda uses the retroflex phoneme for th which is थ Also technically I think is should be thodi si Hindi and not thoda sa hindi shiv
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 9:33 AM, SS cybers...@gmail.com wrote: The first language seems to read Kannada but uses Telugu (or some other unfamiliar) script if I am not mistaken. It seems to read K-N-N-D which is like a transcription of the English spelling of kannada into the wrong font. Maybe what I am seeing what Evolution mail thinks it is, but the word is not showing up right in Kannada. Displays OK on my system (Windows/Thunderbird) and on gmail. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Tue, 2013-09-03 at 18:22 +0530, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: read Brahmi and some Tamil inscriptions If you read Brahmi and are interested in ancient scripts here is something that might interest you: 1. A man called Wim Borsboom has developed a hypothesis to say how modern Roman alphabet may be derived from Brahmi. He says that the order of letters was mixed up and some letters lost in transit. The story is original and makes a good yarn if nothing else. It can neither be proven nor ruled out IMO. Here it is http://www.academia.edu/1513607/_Alphabet_or_Abracadabra_-_Reverse_Engineering_The_Western_Alphabet 2.This image is of a table that lists the ten most common signs in the Indus Script and Brahmi https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bYm9PeEJzU1ctQkk/edit?usp=sharing shiv
