Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
shiv sastry wrote: PS: Rhetorical question of the day: Did Microsoft lead the way in changing the spelling of honour to honor? You might want to install the British English dictionary to keep the spellings non-American.
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
Shiv, Your comments were quite interesting and pungent! I don't think the problem is that the otherindians are responsible for everything that goes wrong. to give you an example, when traveling from Goa to Bangalore, I carried every piece of plastic that contained food, drink in my bag, even after i had eaten or had my drink. this is because it was either carry it or dump it into the open garbage like everyone else did and i refused to do that. But it is really hard for me to see my educated cousin drop her plastic container 6 inches away from her after eating her yogurt. its hard NOT to conclude that there are other indians who do not feel the need for cleanliness. so its indeed really a problem with conclusions and not responsibility. There are always going to be some people within a community that are more civic minded than others and are probably doing things to remedy the situation. I do feel that there is a systemic level of change required. for example, if community members were to go to the municipality and say that they could handle the garbage themselves and more efficiently how would that go down? would the municipality feel threatened about loss of jobs or would they shape up? so i don't think that its enough that there are some people who are already trying to effect change. I would like the municipalities to not feel secure about their jobs without feeling an equal need to perform. As to explaining india, I have often wondered how much living exactly is enough to earn one the possibility of expressing a viewpoint on india? an interesting aspect of how people living in india view NRIs is that the most formative, longer periods of time spent in india are ALWAYS discounted unfavorably against the smaller, and not necessarily more influential periods of time spent outside the country. The other point you made about the domestics situation is absolutely dead on. When i worked in Goa, I argued in favor of the domestic cook getting leave and not having to be at the beck and call of employees until all hours of the night. I was absolutely amazed to see that 20 year olds were the least democratic of the lot and in fact the most conformist-their only dream was upward mobility. They indulged my dreams of equality ascribing it to my long stay without a domestic in the US As to marrying the domestic's daughter, good luck! People don't even have the courtesy to offer the domestic a seat at the table to eat, where's the question of marriage! Radhika 2007/1/1, shiv sastry [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Another characteristic of some Indians is a very positive image of oneself in contrast to the feeling that other Indians lack all the positive qualities that one has. Stemming from this is the feeling that since faulty, inadequate, other Indians are responsible for what is wrong they (someone else/other Indians) should do someting about correcting all those things that one perceives as wrong. One personally does not have to go beyond the ceaseless pointing out of all that is wrong. Actually getting one's hands dirty and involving oneself in such cleaning up activities is not considered possible because everyone else (apart from me) is beyond redemption. So we have collections of individual Indians who consider themselves orderly, law abiding, clean and uncorrupt who are able to point out the absence of these qualities in everyone around them. Among those who actually live inside faulty Indian communities one finds that there are people doing things to change and improve what is around them. The clever perceptive people who do not see this could probably help if they realize that entire communities are not actually any worse or corrupt than oneself. Huge problems require more time, effort and patience to solve than some perceptive people are able provide. The few that do begin to see the real social issues that create the conditions that they see. I had coined an acronym for the elite ruling class of Pakistan - RAPE - Rich Anglophone Pakistani Elite. The same mindset exists among Indians and I had coined an acronym for that as well, but (unsurprisingly) nobody liked it and it never became as popular (in some circles) as RAPE. The acronym was IYER - for Indian, Yindoo, English speaking, Rich. Both these groups are disconnected from the average Indian/Pakistani and generally find it easier to relate to the state of affairs in developed Western nations than that within India or Pakistan. That however does not discourage them from using any existing unfair system in India (or Pakistan) as long as they benefit from it. They rationalize that such activity is fine and dandy because everyone else is doing it. Here are a few of many questions that contribute to explaining India. Do you live in India? If you live in India do you have a servant? Is she 18 years or older? Do you pay her the minimum wage stipulated? Do you know what the minimum wage is? Do you give her a day off a week? Do you allow her at least
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
On Tuesday 02 Jan 2007 1:37 pm, Radhika, Y. wrote: There are always going to be some people within a community that are more civic minded than others and are probably doing things to remedy the situation. I do feel that there is a systemic level of change required. for example, if community members were to go to the municipality and say that they could handle the garbage themselves and more efficiently how would that go down? would the municipality feel threatened about loss of jobs or would they shape up? The problem is not that municipalities feel a threat. Private public partnership for garbage disposal is AFAIK is going on in Surat, Coimbatore, Bangalore and a whole lot of other places. As I see it, traditional Indian garbage as recently as 50 yeas ago was all biodegradable. The traditional India as recently as 50 years ago was 80% rural and garbage disposal was a matter of throwing something organic out, and it would be eaten by large or small animals/plants/bacteria. For rich city dwellers like my grandfather(a miniscule minority from a privileged class) garbage disposal was the act of getting a servant to chuck it over the back wall into the conservancy where it would decompose or be eaten or scavenged by humans or animals. 50 years ago there were perhaps 300 milion Indians who taught their children how to dispose garbage (as above). 50 years later there are 1000 million Indians who imagine that this is the way garbage gets disposed. But in these 50 years we built pukka pavements and roads and drains which are not conducive to the degradation of bio-waste. And in these 50 years we have change the nature of our garbage from 100% biodegradable to a whole lot of plastic, glass and metal. And the amount of garbage has gone up. Our systems are unable to cope because of ignorance AND development AND population explosion AND globalization/improvement in economy. Children (and your cousin) must be taught and encouraged to look for appropriate solutions. That is actually happening. But you will not know if you live outside India. As to explaining india, I have often wondered how much living exactly is enough to earn one the possibility of expressing a viewpoint on india? an interesting aspect of how people living in india view NRIs is that the most formative, longer periods of time spent in india are ALWAYS discounted unfavorably against the smaller, and not necessarily more influential periods of time spent outside the country. NRIs sometimes say and do extraordinarily stupid (or ignorant) things and get upset when they are told off. I have been an NRI myself (lived in the UK for 8 years) I've been back for 16 years now. You need at least a decade as an adult in India, working and earning a living (not as a student) to begin to see issues the way they are seen here rather than try and apply paradigms and solutions lifted from elsewhere. If you live in India and move out for more than two years - you forget, and in 4 years your are a foreigner. It will take you ten years to catch up. India is not static, but memories and cultural traditions carried by NRIs to foreign lands are frozen in time from the minute they moved abroad. The other point you made about the domestics situation is absolutely dead on. When i worked in Goa, I argued in favor of the domestic cook getting leave and not having to be at the beck and call of employees until all hours of the night. If you cannot go on a a ceaseless jihad to try and change this for at least one servant near you, any complaint that you make about India rings hollow and sounds like the cocktail circuit chatterati. There is no time for complaints IMO - anyone who is concerned need to learn what is being done and join with others who are doing just that. shiv
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
the garbage business has several aspects to it-not just the kind of waste produced, but transportation and management by municipalities. on this level, the efforts are too few and too sporadic-systemic change has not occurred yet. I think your points are logical but a little too black and white regarding living situations and perhaps a little too rigid about change. your notions of NRIs might be frozen in the time that you were one and when you met other NRIs. All NRIs don't go out at the same age and this may surprise you, but some have plenty of work experience in india before leaving! there are so many different work and living arrangements now that its impossible to generalize. Plus there are n number of people whose work lives are fluid so they spend their time in a variety of countries rather than any one other. Neither complaint nor failure equal defeat. All organized or individual protest depends on that persistence. As to knowing what is going on, one cannot know everything about India even when living there (its too large and complex a country and no single indian can claim to know everything -it depends on too many variables of class, education etc!). There is also a romantic notion amongst desis about who constitutes the real india. Considering how urbanized india is, it is quite strange that usually these notions don't include urban middle-class people. We will just have to agree to disagree! Radhika 2007/1/2, shiv sastry [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tuesday 02 Jan 2007 1:37 pm, Radhika, Y. wrote: There are always going to be some people within a community that are more civic minded than others and are probably doing things to remedy the situation. I do feel that there is a systemic level of change required. for example, if community members were to go to the municipality and say that they could handle the garbage themselves and more efficiently how would that go down? would the municipality feel threatened about loss of jobs or would they shape up? The problem is not that municipalities feel a threat. Private public partnership for garbage disposal is AFAIK is going on in Surat, Coimbatore, Bangalore and a whole lot of other places. As I see it, traditional Indian garbage as recently as 50 yeas ago was all biodegradable. The traditional India as recently as 50 years ago was 80% rural and garbage disposal was a matter of throwing something organic out, and it would be eaten by large or small animals/plants/bacteria. For rich city dwellers like my grandfather(a miniscule minority from a privileged class) garbage disposal was the act of getting a servant to chuck it over the back wall into the conservancy where it would decompose or be eaten or scavenged by humans or animals. 50 years ago there were perhaps 300 milion Indians who taught their children how to dispose garbage (as above). 50 years later there are 1000 million Indians who imagine that this is the way garbage gets disposed. But in these 50 years we built pukka pavements and roads and drains which are not conducive to the degradation of bio-waste. And in these 50 years we have change the nature of our garbage from 100% biodegradable to a whole lot of plastic, glass and metal. And the amount of garbage has gone up. Our systems are unable to cope because of ignorance AND development AND population explosion AND globalization/improvement in economy. Children (and your cousin) must be taught and encouraged to look for appropriate solutions. That is actually happening. But you will not know if you live outside India. As to explaining india, I have often wondered how much living exactly is enough to earn one the possibility of expressing a viewpoint on india? an interesting aspect of how people living in india view NRIs is that the most formative, longer periods of time spent in india are ALWAYS discounted unfavorably against the smaller, and not necessarily more influential periods of time spent outside the country. NRIs sometimes say and do extraordinarily stupid (or ignorant) things and get upset when they are told off. I have been an NRI myself (lived in the UK for 8 years) I've been back for 16 years now. You need at least a decade as an adult in India, working and earning a living (not as a student) to begin to see issues the way they are seen here rather than try and apply paradigms and solutions lifted from elsewhere. If you live in India and move out for more than two years - you forget, and in 4 years your are a foreigner. It will take you ten years to catch up. India is not static, but memories and cultural traditions carried by NRIs to foreign lands are frozen in time from the minute they moved abroad. The other point you made about the domestics situation is absolutely dead on. When i worked in Goa, I argued in favor of the domestic cook getting leave and not having to be at the beck and call of employees until all hours of the night. If you cannot go on a a ceaseless jihad to try and change
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
Seems we have both come down a few notches;-) All right Shiv, Enquiry, Empathy and Study are excellent-God forbid that Complaint and failure could coexist with the former three:-) 2007/1/2, Thaths [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/2/07, shiv sastry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Enquiry, empathy and study are more positive, appealing and win more allies. Who are you? And what have you done with our beloved Shiv? :-) Thaths -- Homer: He has all the money in the world, but there's one thing he can't buy. Marge: What's that? Homer: (pause) A dinosaur. -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
On a completely different note - I believe it is true to say that Indians traditionally carry with them a needless burden of honor being maintained by external validation. Honor does not necessarily come from work or honesty, but is colored by what others say, or what others may be saying The theme of external validation being an issue for Indians extends across languages in India. What will four people say is a transliteration of a saying in Kannada and Tamil which asks if a person should not be ashamed because of the expected reaction of others (four people) to something. In Hindi the equivalent is Log kya kahenge (What will people say?). India (particularly Hindu India) requires that a person's life should go from education, to work, to marriage, children, acquiring one's own house and then getting grandchildren. Leave aside the actual people who are supposed to do all this - it is the extended family, i.e. parents, grandparents, uncles, cousins and the like feel shame/embarrassment and there is a loss of honor if if this route is not followed by someone. One cliche is the mother in law telling daughter in law Shantiben next door has two grandchildren and you have not prodcued any for me yet. What is the matter with you? In contrast, there is the show off factor - the acquisition of honor by what four people say if your extended family does some things more show-off worthy or faster than someone else. Is you son doing Mechanical in Dumbdown Engg college? My son has got into Information Technology in IIT. (So there - you can eat shit. This is revenge for getting a son earlier than me. My honor is redeemed) Daughter being seen with boys is loss of honor. Getting a firstborn son means more honor. The eldest daughter in law of the house has a status just above mop and maidservant until her first child turns out to be a son. That newborn first child of the eldest son is future king (the Rajkumar) and status of daughter in law goes up after that. Of course anyone who wants to change these things in India has to be willing to get into fights with his closest relatives - starting with his parents. Not for the faint hearted. shiv PS: Rhetorical question of the day: Did Microsoft lead the way in changing the spelling of honour to honor?
[silk] Indians and the honor system
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1572805,00.html snip Paying the check by honor system has its risks; there are always those who will exploit the opportunity and eat for free — perhaps more so in big cities. At Babu, an Indian restaurant in New York City, the pay-what-you-feel-is-fair method resulted in too many people getting a free meal. One Friday night, a rowdy group of 10 young Indians walked in and took over the restaurant's large central table. Their response to no prices was to leave no money; not even a tip for the wait staff. Babu now states their prices. snip Why is it that we, one of the oldest civilization on the earth, lack basic civic sense (apparent from the trash thrown out of a speeding luxury car) and honoring others' labor? The 30-day return policy would never work in India, in my opinion. I have met quite a few desis in the US who used to buy camcorders 'for the vacation trip'. Your thoughts?
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
On 01-Jan-07, at 7:14 PM, Venkat Mangudi wrote: Why is it that we, one of the oldest civilization on the earth, lack basic civic sense (apparent from the trash thrown out of a speeding luxury car) and honoring others' labor? The 30-day return policy would never work in India, in my opinion. I have met quite a few desis in the US who used to buy camcorders 'for the vacation trip'. Sweeping Generalisation Alert! There's a similar Indian restaurant in Singapore that, to the best of my knowledge, continues to be able to justify staying open. -- Kiran Jonnalagadda http://jace.seacrow.com/
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote: Sweeping Generalisation Alert! 1. Do we have a garbage disposal system that works efficiently? Nope, there is a rudimentary system in most cities. Our civic minded citizens still chuck bags/paper and general trash anywhere as long as it is not their home. Funny, that. 2. Do we have friendly traffic? Are we pedestrian friendly? Are pedestrians traffic friendly? No, no and no! The traffic in most cities is a big mess. I remember reading a funny email making rounds a few years ago. Driving in India is generally accomplished by pointing the vehicle in the general direction you wish to go and try to keep yourself from hitting any other object. I find that this is generally the case. Utter disregard for traffic rules, lanes are just a suggestion, pedestrian crossings are generally the worst place to cross the road... I could go on. And don't get me started on the honking habit we have. I remember my wife telling me that her driving instructor here asked her to be liberal with the horn to warn the population, especially at intersections. 3. Environment consciousness is growing, but not at the rate it should. I don't have to say anything here. Lot of politics and conflicting public messages have actually confused the general populace what we are doing and what we have to do to save the environment. But I should give you credit for catching my mistake. The issue is only in the cities, in my opinion. The villages are far more civic minded, and I am told that this is because of the sense of belonging. The villagers typically treat the entire village as their home and thus do not defile it. In the cities and the suburbia, you see people only caring for their own property and no more. There's a similar Indian restaurant in Singapore that, to the best of my knowledge, continues to be able to justify staying open. Where is this restaurant? I would be surprised if it was in Serangoon. I have noticed that most of us are on our best behaviour outside India. The same people who would not honk unnecessarily in the US, are honk-happy here. Is it us or is it India?
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
We are the worst when it comes to civic consciousness. I went to Sri Lanka and was utterly humiliated to see the contrast between what they have done with their resources and what we are doing. Of course, they are smaller, their population is lower(and why is that not to their credit???) but they have hardly any caste system, Buddhism and environmental consciousness have been very successfully tied together in motivating people to be clean and (Venkat, you've hit the nail on the head) ownership makes it easy for them to be vested. Most people in SL own their own house, if not in the city, then in the village. The only two problems i noticed were prostitution(could be made safer at least by legalization) and alcoholism(exacerbated by development aid by all accounts). I work on a project where tsunami affected communities are participating and even the tsunami camps are better off than most indian slums-and you've guessed it-even in these areas the streets are clean-there is a modest amount of garbage-nothing compared to desh unfortunately. I remember traveling from Goa to bangalore in 2004 and it was unbelievable how many towns were stifled by garbage(this in a relatively cleaner part of the country!). A group of community minded people ought to be able to hire a contractor who takes the garbage to a designated landfill. But i can also imagine the horror of trying to get that information from the municipal offices-they would feel threatened for their jobs. it all seems so vicious and pointless. I am also tired of hearing myself rant and would like to do something about it. the problem is what is the effectiveness of doing anything from this distance when its really something locals should do in their own communities, neighborthoods and towns? Radhika 2007/1/1, Venkat Mangudi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote: Sweeping Generalisation Alert! 1. Do we have a garbage disposal system that works efficiently? Nope, there is a rudimentary system in most cities. Our civic minded citizens still chuck bags/paper and general trash anywhere as long as it is not their home. Funny, that. 2. Do we have friendly traffic? Are we pedestrian friendly? Are pedestrians traffic friendly? No, no and no! The traffic in most cities is a big mess. I remember reading a funny email making rounds a few years ago. Driving in India is generally accomplished by pointing the vehicle in the general direction you wish to go and try to keep yourself from hitting any other object. I find that this is generally the case. Utter disregard for traffic rules, lanes are just a suggestion, pedestrian crossings are generally the worst place to cross the road... I could go on. And don't get me started on the honking habit we have. I remember my wife telling me that her driving instructor here asked her to be liberal with the horn to warn the population, especially at intersections. 3. Environment consciousness is growing, but not at the rate it should. I don't have to say anything here. Lot of politics and conflicting public messages have actually confused the general populace what we are doing and what we have to do to save the environment. But I should give you credit for catching my mistake. The issue is only in the cities, in my opinion. The villages are far more civic minded, and I am told that this is because of the sense of belonging. The villagers typically treat the entire village as their home and thus do not defile it. In the cities and the suburbia, you see people only caring for their own property and no more. There's a similar Indian restaurant in Singapore that, to the best of my knowledge, continues to be able to justify staying open. Where is this restaurant? I would be surprised if it was in Serangoon. I have noticed that most of us are on our best behaviour outside India. The same people who would not honk unnecessarily in the US, are honk-happy here. Is it us or is it India?
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
On 1/1/07, Venkat Mangudi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: have noticed that most of us are on our best behaviour outside India. The same people who would not honk unnecessarily in the US, are honk-happy here. Is it us or is it India? I think it is because of two interconnected things - the crumbling civic infrastructure of the country in some areas (power, roads, garbage collection, water supply, sewage, etc.) and the fact that India is an almost a failed state. I call it an almost failed state because people seem to have lost trust in the legislature (netas) , executive (babus) and judiciary (a court system where there is still no justice for the 1984 anti-sikh riots in Delhi). Thaths -- Homer: He has all the money in the world, but there's one thing he can't buy. Marge: What's that? Homer: (pause) A dinosaur. -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
Another characteristic of some Indians is a very positive image of oneself in contrast to the feeling that other Indians lack all the positive qualities that one has. Stemming from this is the feeling that since faulty, inadequate, other Indians are responsible for what is wrong they (someone else/other Indians) should do someting about correcting all those things that one perceives as wrong. One personally does not have to go beyond the ceaseless pointing out of all that is wrong. Actually getting one's hands dirty and involving oneself in such cleaning up activities is not considered possible because everyone else (apart from me) is beyond redemption. So we have collections of individual Indians who consider themselves orderly, law abiding, clean and uncorrupt who are able to point out the absence of these qualities in everyone around them. Among those who actually live inside faulty Indian communities one finds that there are people doing things to change and improve what is around them. The clever perceptive people who do not see this could probably help if they realize that entire communities are not actually any worse or corrupt than oneself. Huge problems require more time, effort and patience to solve than some perceptive people are able provide. The few that do begin to see the real social issues that create the conditions that they see. I had coined an acronym for the elite ruling class of Pakistan - RAPE - Rich Anglophone Pakistani Elite. The same mindset exists among Indians and I had coined an acronym for that as well, but (unsurprisingly) nobody liked it and it never became as popular (in some circles) as RAPE. The acronym was IYER - for Indian, Yindoo, English speaking, Rich. Both these groups are disconnected from the average Indian/Pakistani and generally find it easier to relate to the state of affairs in developed Western nations than that within India or Pakistan. That however does not discourage them from using any existing unfair system in India (or Pakistan) as long as they benefit from it. They rationalize that such activity is fine and dandy because everyone else is doing it. Here are a few of many questions that contribute to explaining India. Do you live in India? If you live in India do you have a servant? Is she 18 years or older? Do you pay her the minimum wage stipulated? Do you know what the minimum wage is? Do you give her a day off a week? Do you allow her at least a couple of weeks off as vacation every year? Does she stay in your house in servants quarters and not pay rent/electricity bills - which serve as justification or recompense for her working conditions? Is she a daily wage laborer who works 2 hours in a day for you for which you pay her what you think is fair? Have you married into your caste or community? Would you cheerfully allow your son to choose to marry your maidservant if that was his wish and he said that its' his life and not yours? If you have a servant and treat her like all other Indians do - you are no different except that bitter complaints put you among the chatterati class who have the time and opportunity to say how everything is bad. What have you done to make your friends, relatives (parents?) and others comply with what is right, or do you feel that in India the system works in a particular way and that there is no use trying to change it? If that is the case what makes you different from all the other Indians whom you sought to differentiate yourself from when you recognized all those things that are wrong? shiv
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
On 1/1/07, Kiran Jonnalagadda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 01-Jan-07, at 7:14 PM, Venkat Mangudi wrote: Why is it that we, one of the oldest civilization on the earth, lack basic civic sense (apparent from the trash thrown out of a speeding luxury car) and honoring others' labor? The 30-day return [...] Sweeping Generalisation Alert! There's a similar Indian restaurant in Singapore that, to the best of my knowledge, continues to be able to justify staying open. Indeed, I'd like to add that there is a restaurant in Coimbatore that does not state a fee and it's been the experience of the organization that runs it that people tend to overpay more than the value of the meal. It could be a function of the locality it's opened in. An honor system isn't a proven business model, there aren't easy rules to follow here. Cheeni
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
On 1/2/07, Srini Ramakrishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Indeed, I'd like to add that there is a restaurant in Coimbatore that does not state a fee and it's been the experience of the organization that runs it that people tend to overpay more than the value of the meal. It could be a function of the locality it's opened in. An honor system isn't a proven business model, there aren't easy rules to follow here. I'd also like to point out the following items: The Bagelman chronicles as featured in the best seller Freakonomics - Levitt, Dubner: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/06/magazine/06BAGEL.html?ei=5070en=58739b078c23fa95ex=1167800400pagewanted=allposition= Also mirrored at: http://www.stephenjdubner.com/journalism/bagelman.html The above is a real life example of dishonesty, returning products though is just gaming the system. An intro note on price positioning: http://www.gaebler.com/Pricing-and-Positioning.htm The restaurant that I mentioned earlier is run along the lines of an ashram, and the profits reportedly go to charity. That may have a desirable effect in curbing free riders. It could just be that Babu chose a rather unfortunate positioning and pricing strategy. Most major US retailers who accept returns these days track the purchaser using their credit card and flag habitual returners. The 30-day return camcorder toting holidayers aren't all Indian, it's been my experience that it extends to all ethnicities. The average large chain American retailer offers return incentives and mail in rebates and other marketing sops on the assumption that enough customers will just buy the stuff and never contact the retailer ever again. If it makes economic sense for someone to stand and wait in the return line, use multiple credit cards and make multiple trips to the store in order to execute the free camcorder holiday, then power to them for they are exploiting the weaknesses of the system. This is no more a crime than being a coupon cutter or an ebay sniper - to name a few other similar pastimes. Of course the odds are against the returnee customer being an Indian doctor driving a Lexus and making more than $250 an hour. In addition, if returning goods habitually is a crime then what is the moral stand of retailers like CompUSA that price a wireless router that routinely sells online for $20 at $80 and targets these special offers at its geriatric customers? Cheeni P.S. I don't see this returnee example as necessarily extending to the civic cleanliness and traffic arguments of your OP
Re: [silk] Indians and the honor system
Shiv, I too agree with you in toto. :-) Thanks. The one at Coimbatore is called Annalakshmi (near mardudamalai and not the one on racecourse road) - and this is part of a chain of hotels (and much else run by a group called 'shiva family' in australia, singapore, coimbatore, madras...) - I know many of this group personally and I can say that since 'profit' is not a motive at all, they manage to lumber along. Many guys do pay - and there are these urban young guys who confidently trot out after having a sumptuous meal for gratis and without making an eye contact with the cashier - and there are guys who pay much more than what they ought to... interesting experiment - but the folks behind the show are committed to continue with this. There were at least two 'messes' in Madras which were then in business for some 15 years or so (some 10 years back) - having the same 'pay, if you can' policy. There are INNUMERABLE choultries which dont even say 'you pay what you can' - and merely keep serving up food for free if you are there within a timeslot... I also know quite a few 'homestays' kind of places run by excellent and self-contended homesteader folks in India (who dont whine at all, surprise-surprise), living in nice, scenic places who also have this policy of 'pay what you can, if you think it is fair, and not at all, if you cant, and of course we enjoyed having you on board) - and by and large this works too. And, I dont think the notion of the predatory mode of eating off the commons or abusing politeness and fair practices is limited to a nation or race or whatever. This is because, I also personally know of the instances of many folks (from Australia, Germany (many), US, Canada and England) who have had excellent times in many of these 'homestay' places for extended weeks and somehow managed to quitely vanish without paying a paisa, sometimes taking a book or two with them, from the personal libraries of the hosts, for good measure. Once again, it is gratifying (to me, that is) to note that (surprisingly) melanin levels in skin does not count at all! :-) And of course, more gratifying is the realization that the types that were exemplified by Shiv, dont count too. Warm regards: __r. On 1/2/07, Kiran Jonnalagadda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 02-Jan-07, at 8:12 AM, shiv sastry wrote: snip Thanks, Shiv. That was needed. :) -- Kiran Jonnalagadda http://jace.seacrow.com/
