Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: [...] It is easy for one who has voted with his feet to condemn those who can't. No sense going after the arguer, please do attack the argument. Without some sensitivity a lot of very valid concerns sound like, You must deny yourself the consumerist comforts that I enjoy to improve my quality of life. Or in this case, Walk to work so that I have something pretty to look at. While I have genuine sympathies for your plight, I am not entirely sure nothing can be done. To say so, would be to subscribe to that awful Bangalore phrase sandwich of defeatism, escapism and fatalism, We are like this only, adjust maadi. If the only options on the table are either to sigh in resignation, or to bristle with discontent, I choose the latter in the hope it musters up change.
[silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
“The Government of Karnataka will have to evacuate half of Bangalore in the next ten years, due to water scarcity, contamination of water and diseases.” http://www.firstpost.com/india/will-bangalore-have-to-be-evacuated-by-2023-697649.html
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:29 PM, freeman murray free...@jaaga.in wrote: “The Government of Karnataka will have to evacuate half of Bangalore in the next ten years, due to water scarcity, contamination of water and diseases.” http://www.firstpost.com/india/will-bangalore-have-to-be-evacuated-by-2023-697649.html Ironically, evacuating them right away might fix Bangalore's problems. Of course, it will probably create a new set elsewhere. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 04:55:12PM +0530, Udhay Shankar N wrote: http://www.firstpost.com/india/will-bangalore-have-to-be-evacuated-by-2023-697649.html Ironically, evacuating them right away might fix Bangalore's problems. Of course, it will probably create a new set elsewhere. Limits to Growth is still on track for Fun in 2030.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
I am yet to see a calamity that will force Indians to evacuate. If Indians were the kind that would quit unhealthy environments, then prices of land in Bangalore should be falling right now. Bhopal never skipped a beat even when its citizens were falling dead from poisonous gas, and it's dusty roads are even today filling up with malls when the monuments to the disaster are forgotten all too willingly. One can only grow angry or sad that this isn't going to end nicely. In an ideal world no one would pay half a million dollars for an apartment built on a toxic waste dump, like you can see in any large Indian city, but it happens here. When things hit a new low Indians shockingly grow dumb to its ills and persist. It's almost as if Indians have been actively engaged in finding ways to lose the ability to see what's good for them. An ugly public building comes up right next to a 1500 year old temple. A monument to incompetence and corruption built in the backyard of a millennial legacy of elegance and brilliance, and no one bats an eyelid. Life couldn't rub their noses in the dirty reality any harder, and yet they are either by choice, or otherwise, blind to the irony. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:29 PM, freeman murray free...@jaaga.in wrote: “The Government of Karnataka will have to evacuate half of Bangalore in the next ten years, due to water scarcity, contamination of water and diseases.” http://www.firstpost.com/india/will-bangalore-have-to-be-evacuated-by-2023-697649.html
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
Srini - I totally agree. I see it as the 'over-glorification of Jugaad.'
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: I am yet to see a calamity that will force Indians to evacuate. If Indians were the kind that would quit unhealthy environments, then prices of land in Bangalore should be falling right now. This is quite true of most places in India. A combination of dust, smoke, concrete and other assorted particulate matter have made most urban/semi-urban habitats next to impossible to live in without some version of respiratory disease. One can only grow angry or sad that this isn't going to end nicely. In an ideal world no one would pay half a million dollars for an apartment built on a toxic waste dump, like you can see in any large Indian city, but it happens here. I'm also going to add here that a general aversion that Indians have to risk means that they won't go to a place that's relatively less unhealthy. They have found ways of making their lives more comfortable without having to migrate at the cost of their livelihoods. And in India, livelihoods trump everything, even life expectancy. When things hit a new low Indians shockingly grow dumb to its ills and persist. It's almost as if Indians have been actively engaged in finding ways to lose the ability to see what's good for them. This sounds like you believe most Indians actually have a choice. See above for the livelihood argument. An ugly public building comes up right next to a 1500 year old temple. A monument to incompetence and corruption built in the backyard of a millennial legacy of elegance and brilliance, and no one bats an eyelid. I refuse to accept that any building constructed several hundreds of years ago is brilliant or elegant purely by being there for that long. I find a number of temples in India to be festering eyesores, and while I'd balk at calling modern structures beautiful, they're not ugly just because they're new, either. I'm drifting from the topic at hand, but unless you're referring to something specific, I'm going to call bullshit on this sort of generalization. Life couldn't rub their noses in the dirty reality any harder, and yet they are either by choice, or otherwise, blind to the irony. I think they recognize their dirty reality better than most, and with a shrug of their shoulders, follow that maxim their former colonists employed during the Battle of Britain: they keep calm and carry on. -- Sumant Srivathsan http://sumants.blogspot.com
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
If there's any innovation in Jugaad, it is in talking a tall tale. There is no ethnic flavor to innovation, not Indian, Chinese or African. Sure when you take away the resources and / or laws, then new solutions with trade-offs become possible. Like the Chinese mobile phone clones or Indian drug clones that don't respect IP or clean room norms to discount the price. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Caitlin Marinelli caitlin.marine...@gmail.com wrote: Srini - I totally agree. I see it as the 'over-glorification of Jugaad.'
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
Srini RamaKrishnan [18/04/13 19:49 +0530]: If there's any innovation in Jugaad, it is in talking a tall tale. Jugaad is precisely what gives us characters like Harshad Mehta and Ramalinga Raju. It simply means zero lack of ethics and bare or zero adherence to standards.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:48 PM, Sumant Srivathsan suma...@gmail.com wrote: An ugly public building comes up right next to a 1500 year old temple. A monument to incompetence and corruption built in the backyard of a millennial legacy of elegance and brilliance, and no one bats an eyelid. I refuse to accept that any building constructed several hundreds of years ago is brilliant or elegant purely by being there for that long. I find a number of temples in India to be festering eyesores, and while I'd balk at calling modern structures beautiful, they're not ugly just because they're new, either. I'm drifting from the topic at hand, but unless you're referring to something specific, I'm going to call bullshit on this sort of generalization. Oh I had a specific example in mind, from my neighborhood. The MRTS in Thiruvanmiyur - this - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Thiruvanmiyur_MRTS_station.JPG Versus this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marundeeswarar_Temple which has a poem dedicated to it in the Thevaram as a towering glory that blocks out the moon on a bright moon's night, when the sound of the temple bells silence the buzz of the bees of the forest and the roars of the waves. I am waiting for some contemporary poet to write something similar about the MRTS station. I am sure I won't be disappointed now.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On 18 Apr 2013 19:58, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: Oh I had a specific example in mind, from my neighborhood. The MRTS in Thiruvanmiyur - this - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Thiruvanmiyur_MRTS_station.JPG Versus this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marundeeswarar_Temple which has a poem dedicated to it in the Thevaram as a towering glory that blocks out the moon on a bright moon's night, when the sound of the temple bells silence the buzz of the bees of the forest and the roars of the waves. I am waiting for some contemporary poet to write something similar about the MRTS station. I am sure I won't be disappointed now. Much as I like the marundeeswarar and much as I don't like the MRTS station, your comparison doesn't hold true. Temple poetry is more about exaggeration of the attributes of the diety and less of architectural critique.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan chandrachoo...@gmail.com wrote: Much as I like the marundeeswarar and much as I don't like the MRTS station, your comparison doesn't hold true. Temple poetry is more about exaggeration of the attributes of the diety and less of architectural critique. I can see poetry in imagining a time when this place was covered with forest, and the imprint of man was vanishingly small - and out of it arose a tower like no other, made brilliant by lines of oil lamps - built with muscle and sinew - a paean to faith - towering over the trees of the forest and adding its brass timbre to the chorus of the birds. Man's voice as a challenge to nature. The MRTS evokes only the poetic character of yesterday's putrefying vomit.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
I can see the MRTS evoking some Marxist / North Korean poetry. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan chandrachoo...@gmail.com wrote: Much as I like the marundeeswarar and much as I don't like the MRTS station, your comparison doesn't hold true. Temple poetry is more about exaggeration of the attributes of the diety and less of architectural critique. I can see poetry in imagining a time when this place was covered with forest, and the imprint of man was vanishingly small - and out of it arose a tower like no other, made brilliant by lines of oil lamps - built with muscle and sinew - a paean to faith - towering over the trees of the forest and adding its brass timbre to the chorus of the birds. Man's voice as a challenge to nature. The MRTS evokes only the poetic character of yesterday's putrefying vomit.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Mahesh Murthy mahesh.mur...@gmail.com wrote: I can see the MRTS evoking some Marxist / North Korean poetry. You mean of the fascist joy through suffering variety, indeed. We should let Hitler know.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:48 PM, Sumant Srivathsan suma...@gmail.com wrote: This is quite true of most places in India. A combination of dust, smoke, concrete and other assorted particulate matter have made most urban/semi-urban habitats next to impossible to live in without some version of respiratory disease. Respiratory infections kill the most in India. http://www.healthmetricsandevaluation.org/gbd/visualizations/gbd-2010-leading-causes-and-risks-region-heat-map
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
The mrts does help people get around without traffic jams. Yes it could be better - those stations are all poorly sited and poorly constructed over-large, in the vague hope that people would turn those structures into shopping malls and the footfall would be far more than it currently is on the velachery - beach line (compared to the tambaram - beach commuter rail line, which is crowded even on holidays). As for the temples - yes, beautiful, cultural, need to be preserved and all that, but do you seriously expect thiruvanmiyur to revert back to being a dense forest to set off the beauty of the temple and its tank? preferably with water lilies rather than pond scum but that's a detail. --srs (iPad) On 18-Apr-2013, at 20:15, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan chandrachoo...@gmail.com wrote: Much as I like the marundeeswarar and much as I don't like the MRTS station, your comparison doesn't hold true. Temple poetry is more about exaggeration of the attributes of the diety and less of architectural critique. I can see poetry in imagining a time when this place was covered with forest, and the imprint of man was vanishingly small - and out of it arose a tower like no other, made brilliant by lines of oil lamps - built with muscle and sinew - a paean to faith - towering over the trees of the forest and adding its brass timbre to the chorus of the birds. Man's voice as a challenge to nature. The MRTS evokes only the poetic character of yesterday's putrefying vomit.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 07:48:53PM +0530, Sumant Srivathsan wrote: This is quite true of most places in India. A combination of dust, smoke, concrete and other assorted particulate matter have made most urban/semi-urban habitats next to impossible to live in without some version of respiratory disease. I think the farmer suicides are a canary in the coal mine though. Precipitation shift + fossil water depletion are not a good combination. India isn't immune from what's creaming Pakistan.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
Eugen Leitl [18/04/13 17:22 +0200]: I think the farmer suicides are a canary in the coal mine though. Precipitation shift + fossil water depletion are not a good combination. India isn't immune from what's creaming Pakistan. Farmer suicides have also been due to a debt trap they've got into. [though yes drought is a contributing factor of course] Several private banks decided to fulfil their mandatory quota of rural banking customers - the so called priority sector where banks need to lend 40% of their loans for agriculture, student loans and such .. by hardselling tractor loans to farmers that'd have like a small plot of land and would be much better off just renting one for the small part of the year that it is needed. Several farmers would just get these loans and use them to, say, marry off their daughters. And then wind up unable to pay - and faced with hard nosed collection agents (or even hired thugs, with more than one bank), they'd just drink pesticide and die. Shiv might have some theory on why organophosphorous pesticide is such a favored means of committing suicide in India.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 08:30:10AM -0700, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Several farmers would just get these loans and use them to, say, marry off their daughters. And then wind up unable to pay - and faced with hard nosed collection agents (or even hired thugs, with more than one bank), they'd just drink pesticide and die. Shiv might have some theory on why organophosphorous pesticide is such a favored means of committing suicide in India. Easy availability. Managing these is somewhat of a speciality for some Indian intensivists.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: The MRTS monstrosity is poetic in its own way. The MRTS stations are an Ozymandian reminder of the early 90's and corruption. Vomit is a reminder of yesterday's folly too.
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.netwrote: As for the temples - yes, beautiful, cultural, need to be preserved and all that, but do you seriously expect thiruvanmiyur to revert back to being a dense forest to set off the beauty of the temple and its tank? preferably with water lilies rather than pond scum but that's a detail. How much of a forest these areas were is a question I am interested in. I think The Pallava temples along the Madras coast were built in places that were always occupied. Mylapore or Triplicane were cities long before their temples were built. Perhaps (like the Cholas after them, and the Vijayanagaras/Nayaks after the Cholas), the Pallavas expanded upon/rebuilt/ existing places of worship. In any case, forests on the Madras coast would be more brambly and thorn bushes than trees. C
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Thu, 2013-04-18 at 17:39 +0530, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: I am yet to see a calamity that will force Indians to evacuate. Cholera and dysentery do that. Evacuate and evacuate repeatedly shiv
Re: [silk] coming calamity in Bangalore
On Apr 18, 2013 5:39 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan Life couldn't rub their noses in the dirty reality any harder, and yet they are either by choice, or otherwise, blind to the irony. It is easy for one who has voted with his feet to condemn those who can't. Without some sensitivity a lot of very valid concerns sound like, You must deny yourself the consumerist comforts that I enjoy to improve my quality of life. Or in this case, Walk to work so that I have something pretty to look at. -- b
