Re: [Simh] EXT : Sounds

[Alan Frisbie]

> Ok, fans are not that interesting.  But consider disk drives,
> tape drives, paper puches, teletypes, keyboard clicks, terminal
> bells and beeps.  They all have their distinctive characteristics,
> and I'm sure some of them could throw people right into a fit of
> nostalgia.

At a 1980s DECUS symposium in Atlanta, a guy did vocal sound
effects of popular DEC gear: an RK05 seeking, a TE16 tape drive
unloading, etc.   He got them dead-on and the audience was roaring
with laughter.

Does anyone else remember this?

Alan Frisbie
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Re: [Simh] Sounds

[Peter Onion]

On Mon, 2017-02-20 at 23:54 +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Peter Onion wrote:
> > For some machine emulations the production of correct sound is an
> > integral part of the user experience !
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLEFUA11hgs
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIxZ1i8pvZI
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zezUiJ8NI8
> 
> Yes!  Yes!
> 
> I implore everyone to watch these videos.  The last one is great!

Now that I have retired I hope to find some time to continue working on
that 3D OpenGLES code :-)  It's not been touched for too long !

PeterO



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Re: [Simh] Sounds

[Peter Onion]

On Mon, 2017-02-20 at 21:34 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On 2017-02-20 21:12, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> > Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >> Not sure how meaningful sound is. In general, I would not be able to
> >> tell one computer from another.
> >
> > We may not miss those sounds now, but I figure it could be a bit like
> > other historical items.  Things were considered unimportant and thrown
> > away, but now we miss some of those dearly.
> 
> Maybe I'm "spoiled" by the fact that I've spent literally years in 
> computer halls...

For some machine emulations the production of correct sound is an
integral part of the user experience !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLEFUA11hgs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIxZ1i8pvZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zezUiJ8NI8


PeterO


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Re: [Simh] Announcement: back10

[Tim Stark]

Thanks for publishing this.  I was able compile it into executable file on 
MinGW64/MSYS environments for Windows without any problems.
With MinGW64 compiler, it just complaint missing utsname.h include file.  With 
MSYS compiler, it worked fine.

I was able extract dskaa.sav file from KLAD tape image. I examined contents but 
I have a question for it.

Can back10 handle binary files for extracts and backups?  What kind of format 
does extracted binary file use?  I need good SAV files to debug my MSE emulator 
(KS10 emulation).

Does anyone know FTP high density format that I am looking for?  I only know 
core-dump and ANSI formats for PDP10 tape formats according to back10 source 
codes.

Thanks, 

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Eriksson
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 5:07 AM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: [Simh] Announcement: back10

I have spent some time recently on updating my program(s) to handle
Tops-10 backup tape images, and I am now at the stage when it seems to work 
"good enough", so I decided to release this as a beta test.

  http://www.pdc.kth.se/~bygg/tops/back10.tar

The basic things work, it can create (-c), do directory (-t) and extract files 
(-x), and it reads tapes with large blocks, like the TSU tapes.

This is very much a work-in-progress, so things might change.  If you have any 
opinion on how things should work, please let me know.

--Johnny
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-02-20 21:32, khandy21yo wrote:

Are PC speakers capable of being loud enough to simulate the fans on a
11/70? If it can't cause damage to your hearing, it's not loud enough.


Good point. :-)
Even though I'd say it won't damage your hearing, the noise is 
definitely above what any PC could ever reproduce. But it's not load as 
in ear shattering. It's just a total white noise that covers everything, 
in every corner of the room.


Johnny





Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A

 Original message 
From: Lars Brinkhoff 
Date: 2/20/17 12:35 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

Hello,

I have an idea that may be slightly out of the scope of the SIMH
simulator.  However, adding this would make an already great simulator
provide a super fantastic simulated experience.

The idea is to make 3D scans and record sounds from old computers.  No,
I'm not really saying SIMH should include this.  But it would be a great
complement to the historical data we have, which is mostly text
documents and photos.

I can't do this myself.  If someone were to, say, have collection or
even a museum with functional computers, that would be a good starting
point.
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-02-20 21:18, Phil Budne wrote:

Not sure how meaningful sound is. In general, I would not be able to
tell one computer from another. The noise normally comes from lots of
fans, and they sound the same no matter which computer they are in.


My first thought about the sound of a KL10 was the roar of the fans
and the cold of machine room.  But I remember when I would take Boston
University's 2060 (Orange KL10) stand-alone, I would fiddle with the
FE switches to move the console from the LA36 to an VT100 in the
Operator's room next door: I remember I could hear the creaking sound
of the RP06 PS: device seeking each time I issued the RSX20F boot
command to try a new monitor image.


Yeah... :-)
Although I'm almost impressed if you could hear the noise of the head 
seeks on the RP06 over that noise.

But if you think the fans on a KL roar, you should try the VAX-8650...


But that's the only time I remember knowing a change in sound was
because of something I had done...


It's kind of like, you can hear noises, if you are really close to a 
specific device, but that's not normally what you would be doing. You'd 
be sitting at a terminal, or the front panel, and work...


Johnny

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  ||  on a psychedelic trip
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Re: [Simh] Sounds

[Johnny Billquist]

Hi.

On 2017-02-20 21:12, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:

Johnny Billquist wrote:

Not sure how meaningful sound is. In general, I would not be able to
tell one computer from another.


We may not miss those sounds now, but I figure it could be a bit like
other historical items.  Things were considered unimportant and thrown
away, but now we miss some of those dearly.


Maybe I'm "spoiled" by the fact that I've spent literally years in 
computer halls...



Consider cool-retro-term.  It looks like a silly gimmick, but I use it
often and I think it adds something to the retro experience.  No, it
doesn't get work done any better, but it kinda *feels* more authentic.

Ok, fans are not that interesting.  But consider disk drives, tape
drives, paper puches, teletypes, keyboard clicks, terminal bells and
beeps.  They all have their distinctive characteristics, and I'm sure
some of them could throw people right into a fit of nostalgia.


The thing is, you can't really hear the disk drives over the sound of 
the fans in the computer, and the cooling systems. You can hear, if you 
happen to have a tape drive with vacuum colons, but otherwise not. Paper 
readers you need to almost put your ear against to notice. Punchers make 
more noise. I can demonstrate that as well.


Terminals... Well, if you use them outside of the computer hall, you can 
hear them. :-)
Of course, in this case, it is mostly sounds that are easy to reproduce, 
with the exception of the BEL on a VT-52...



Ping me if you are near Uppsala at the end of July, beginning of
August, and I can take you to a couple of big machines running
(PDP-11/70 and VAX-8650).


Thanks, I'd like that, though I'm not sure I can make that specific
window.  Would that be the Update facilities?


Yes, it would. There are others who can show you around at other times. 
It's just that I'm only in Sweden during that window. But let me (or 
someone else) know if you are around at some other time, and I'm sure 
you can get a tour. And the PDP-11/70 is up and running 24/7. The 
VAX-8650 is currently shut down. I'm not doing much on it at the moment. 
I use it for NetBSD development, but I've currently sortof lost the 
interest in NetBSD... But you only need to turn the key to boot it.


Johnny

--
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  ||  on a psychedelic trip
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pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[khandy21yo]

Are PC speakers capable of being loud enough to simulate the fans on a 11/70? 
If it can't cause damage to your hearing, it's not loud enough.


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: Lars Brinkhoff  Date: 
2/20/17  12:35 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] 
ts10 and mse (my new emulator) 
Hello,

I have an idea that may be slightly out of the scope of the SIMH
simulator.  However, adding this would make an already great simulator
provide a super fantastic simulated experience.

The idea is to make 3D scans and record sounds from old computers.  No,
I'm not really saying SIMH should include this.  But it would be a great
complement to the historical data we have, which is mostly text
documents and photos.

I can't do this myself.  If someone were to, say, have collection or
even a museum with functional computers, that would be a good starting
point.
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Phil Budne]

> Not sure how meaningful sound is. In general, I would not be able to 
> tell one computer from another. The noise normally comes from lots of 
> fans, and they sound the same no matter which computer they are in.

My first thought about the sound of a KL10 was the roar of the fans
and the cold of machine room.  But I remember when I would take Boston
University's 2060 (Orange KL10) stand-alone, I would fiddle with the
FE switches to move the console from the LA36 to an VT100 in the
Operator's room next door: I remember I could hear the creaking sound
of the RP06 PS: device seeking each time I issued the RSX20F boot
command to try a new monitor image.

But that's the only time I remember knowing a change in sound was
because of something I had done...
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Rhialto wrote:
> When they did this with floppy drive sounds in the Commodore 64 (and
> others) emulator VICE, I was skeptical at first. But soon I had to admit
> that getting feedback like how fast the heads were stepping, or if the
> floppies were rotating, was a very effective addition.

See?  An actual use case!
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[Simh] Sounds

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Not sure how meaningful sound is. In general, I would not be able to
> tell one computer from another.

We may not miss those sounds now, but I figure it could be a bit like
other historical items.  Things were considered unimportant and thrown
away, but now we miss some of those dearly.

Consider cool-retro-term.  It looks like a silly gimmick, but I use it
often and I think it adds something to the retro experience.  No, it
doesn't get work done any better, but it kinda *feels* more authentic.

Ok, fans are not that interesting.  But consider disk drives, tape
drives, paper puches, teletypes, keyboard clicks, terminal bells and
beeps.  They all have their distinctive characteristics, and I'm sure
some of them could throw people right into a fit of nostalgia.

> Ping me if you are near Uppsala at the end of July, beginning of
> August, and I can take you to a couple of big machines running
> (PDP-11/70 and VAX-8650).

Thanks, I'd like that, though I'm not sure I can make that specific
window.  Would that be the Update facilities?

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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Johnny Billquist]

Not sure how meaningful sound is. In general, I would not be able to 
tell one computer from another. The noise normally comes from lots of 
fans, and they sound the same no matter which computer they are in.


Ping me if you are near Uppsala at the end of July, beginning of August, 
and I can take you to a couple of big machines running (PDP-11/70 and 
VAX-8650).


Johnny

On 2017-02-20 20:35, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:

Hello,

I have an idea that may be slightly out of the scope of the SIMH
simulator.  However, adding this would make an already great simulator
provide a super fantastic simulated experience.

The idea is to make 3D scans and record sounds from old computers.  No,
I'm not really saying SIMH should include this.  But it would be a great
complement to the historical data we have, which is mostly text
documents and photos.

I can't do this myself.  If someone were to, say, have collection or
even a museum with functional computers, that would be a good starting
point.
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator) (WAS: RE: Klh10 vs Simh)

[Johnny Billquist]

Hi.

On 2017-02-20 17:37, Tim Stark wrote:

Ok, thanks for some information. I will look into that and am now
figuring how to implement TAP/TUN access on my MSE emulator for Windows.

Will DECnet work on TAP/TUN for Windows?


It should. TAP/TUN devices normally are network protocol agnostic.


I am using MinGW64/MSYS and LLVM environments and Eclipse/CDT IDE
editor. I already implemented WinSock2 API access into it.



I learned that WinSock2 API provides DECnet access.  Does anyone have
any experience with DECnet for Windows?


Depends on what you mean by "experience". I have a Windows XP box 
running DECnet here.


Johnny


I plan to adding SDL2 API access for graphics console terminal (VAX
emulation) later.





*From:*Jason Stevens [mailto:jst...@superglobalmegacorp.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:36 PM
*To:* simh@trailing-edge.com; Tim Stark 
*Subject:* Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator) (WAS: RE: Klh10 vs
Simh)



Part of OpenVPN has tun/tap for Windows. And windows does software
bridges which you can bridge the tap to an Ethernet, or even among other
taps.. there is code in Qemu that'll talk to the tap driver.

As a footnote here is how it's done

https://virtuallyfun.superglobalmegacorp.com/2015/01/22/getting-qemus-netware-3-12-onto-the-lan-with-tuntap/

I hate to be "that guy" and ask what license is ts10 under, as you could
possibly just copy the code just in.. or at least see how it's done.

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.



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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Rhialto]

On Mon 20 Feb 2017 at 20:35:34 +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> The idea is to make 3D scans and record sounds from old computers.

When they did this with floppy drive sounds in the Commodore 64 (and
others) emulator VICE, I was skeptical at first. But soon I had to admit
that getting feedback like how fast the heads were stepping, or if the
floppies were rotating, was a very effective addition.

-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl-- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Sorry, forgot to change the subject!
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Hello,

I have an idea that may be slightly out of the scope of the SIMH
simulator.  However, adding this would make an already great simulator
provide a super fantastic simulated experience.

The idea is to make 3D scans and record sounds from old computers.  No,
I'm not really saying SIMH should include this.  But it would be a great
complement to the historical data we have, which is mostly text
documents and photos.

I can't do this myself.  If someone were to, say, have collection or
even a museum with functional computers, that would be a good starting
point.
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator) (WAS: RE: Klh10 vs Simh)

[Mark Pizzolato]

I’m not familiar with what device connectivity TS10 and MSE have implemented.

Is it simulating Ethernet devices?

Point to Point network devices?

Are these tun/tap connections merely used to connect simulators to each other
in the same system or are they also expected to be part of how connectivity I
achieved between simulators and the host system and/or the outside world?

I ask these questions since they’ve all been solved on Windows and Unix hosts
in the simh codebase.  The simh Ethernet functionality provides Ethernet frame
delivery to/from the local LAN and/or to/from the host system directly.  
Ethernet
frames can also be delivered to remote networks via UDP and thus direct
participations in HECnet is possible.  More than likely, the simh sim_ether code
wouldn’t fit directly into TS10 or MSE, but the details of how this problem has
already been solved would certainly be a useful in getting to where you’re 
going.

Step back from the focus on tun/tap and/or Winsock and think packet delivery
and reception.  Tun/tap is one solution to that problem on some platforms.
Simh’s Ethernet layer can talk via tun/tap on Unix hosts.  It can talk directly
to a LAN interface on Unix and Windows hosts.

10 Years ago, on Windows, we thought we needed some sort of package like
OpenVPN in combination with pcap to facilitate bridging.  As it turned out
(only on Windows), we didn’t need that at all once it was realized that we
could talk back and forth with the host system (using pcap) if we padded
pcap received packets to the minimum ethernet frame size.  We received
short packets since pcap captured them before they’d made it to the LAN
driver which would normally have padded them to the minimal frame size.

If you explore these ideas, feel free to ask questions here or directly to me.


-  Mark

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Jason Stevens
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 10:55 AM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com; Tim Stark 
Subject: Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator) (WAS: RE: Klh10 vs Simh)

DECnet for Windows? Yeah, if you have patchworks installed it is another socket 
transport. I ported a telnet client and SBBS 3.0 to DECnet. Not terribly useful 
today, but you can take windsock programs and alter them to run over DECnet 
with tweaking Not that there's an audience for that kind of thing
On February 21, 2017 12:37:52 AM GMT+08:00, Tim Stark 
> wrote:
Ok, thanks for some information. I will look into that and am now figuring how 
to implement TAP/TUN access on my MSE emulator for Windows.
Will DECnet work on TAP/TUN for Windows?


I am using MinGW64/MSYS and LLVM environments and Eclipse/CDT IDE editor. I 
already implemented WinSock2 API access into it.


I learned that WinSock2 API provides DECnet access.  Does anyone have any 
experience with DECnet for Windows?


I plan to adding SDL2 API access for graphics console terminal (VAX emulation) 
later.




From: Jason Stevens [mailto:jst...@superglobalmegacorp.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:36 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com; Tim Stark 
>
Subject: Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator) (WAS: RE: Klh10 vs Simh)


Part of OpenVPN has tun/tap for Windows. And windows does software bridges 
which you can bridge the tap to an Ethernet, or even among other taps.. there 
is code in Qemu that'll talk to the tap driver.

As a footnote here is how it's done

https://virtuallyfun.superglobalmegacorp.com/2015/01/22/getting-qemus-netware-3-12-onto-the-lan-with-tuntap/

I hate to be "that guy" and ask what license is ts10 under, as you could 
possibly just copy the code just in.. or at least see how it's done.
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

--
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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator) (WAS: RE: Klh10 vs Simh)

[Tim Stark]

Ok, thanks for some information. I will look into that and am now figuring how 
to implement TAP/TUN access on my MSE emulator for Windows.

Will DECnet work on TAP/TUN for Windows?

 

I am using MinGW64/MSYS and LLVM environments and Eclipse/CDT IDE editor. I 
already implemented WinSock2 API access into it.

 

I learned that WinSock2 API provides DECnet access.  Does anyone have any 
experience with DECnet for Windows?

 

I plan to adding SDL2 API access for graphics console terminal (VAX emulation) 
later.

 

 

From: Jason Stevens [mailto:jst...@superglobalmegacorp.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:36 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com; Tim Stark 
Subject: Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator) (WAS: RE: Klh10 vs Simh)

 

Part of OpenVPN has tun/tap for Windows. And windows does software bridges 
which you can bridge the tap to an Ethernet, or even among other taps.. there 
is code in Qemu that'll talk to the tap driver.

As a footnote here is how it's done

https://virtuallyfun.superglobalmegacorp.com/2015/01/22/getting-qemus-netware-3-12-onto-the-lan-with-tuntap/

I hate to be "that guy" and ask what license is ts10 under, as you could 
possibly just copy the code just in.. or at least see how it's done.

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [Simh] ts10 and mse (my new emulator)

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Cory Smelosky wrote:
>> Wow!  If you want to make your mark in the PDP-10 emulator world,
>> there's one gap to fill: KL10 running ITS.  Just saying.
> There's one more gap: CompuServe! ;)

Did it use custom microcode?  In that case, how about Tymcom-X and XX?
WAITS?

KA and KI TENEX aren't exactly up and running, but they have been
claimed.

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Re: [Simh] Old TOPS-10 versions?

[Cory Smelosky]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017, at 01:01, Cory Smelosky wrote:

> Give me 5-10 minutes to get to a computer and grab the links for you.
> 

> Sent from my iPhone

> 

> On Feb 19, 2017, at 18:41, Tim Stark  wrote:

>> Folks,



>>  



>> While I checked lars’ repos list and searched for PDP-10 on GitHub
>> website, I discovered another simh repo called “ka10_simh”.  I cloned
>> it and learned that someone successfully loaded and run TOPS-10 v5.03
>> and v6.03 on KA10 and KI10 emulation.  It said that they are
>> available on sky-visions website.
>>  



>> I checked sky-visions website bit some pages are broken or missing.
>> I tried to access DEC systems but page is missing.
>>  



>> I checked my mailbox for old emails and found one email mentions
>> about old TOPS-10 source repos on sky-visions.  I was able access
>> them but am figuring how to clone them from repos.
>>  



>> Does anyone have old TOPS-10 distros prior v7.03 version like 5.03
>> and 6.03, etc.?
>>  



>> Thanks!



>> Tim Stark



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>> Simh@trailing-edge.com

>> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh



See: http://sky-visions.com/dec/

and

http://git.sky-visions.com/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi



(not affiliated - just memorise everything PDP-10) 



--

  Cory Smelosky

  b...@gewt.net




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Re: [Simh] Old TOPS-10 versions?

[Cory Smelosky]

Give me 5-10 minutes to get to a computer and grab the links for you.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 19, 2017, at 18:41, Tim Stark  wrote:
> 
> Folks,
>  
> While I checked lars’ repos list and searched for PDP-10 on GitHub website, I 
> discovered another simh repo called “ka10_simh”.  I cloned it and learned 
> that someone successfully loaded and run TOPS-10 v5.03 and v6.03 on KA10 and 
> KI10 emulation.  It said that they are available on sky-visions website.
>  
> I checked sky-visions website bit some pages are broken or missing.  I tried 
> to access DEC systems but page is missing.
>  
> I checked my mailbox for old emails and found one email mentions about old 
> TOPS-10 source repos on sky-visions.  I was able access them but am figuring 
> how to clone them from repos.
>  
> Does anyone have old TOPS-10 distros prior v7.03 version like 5.03 and 6.03, 
> etc.?
>  
> Thanks!
> Tim Stark
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