Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 4:22 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > On Feb 12, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Mark Pizzolato wrote: > > > > Recent versions of the simh PDP11 will correctly auto size (RL01 vs RL02) > > disk > > containers that have or don’t have the DEC STD 144 bad block table at the > > end > > of the drive as long as the disk image has an RT11 file system on it. If > > it has an > > RT11 file system that fact will be reported. > > > > The prompt “Overwrite last track? [N]” is actually asking a question about > > whether the DEC STD 144 bad block table should be written. The default of > > “[N]” will create a 0 sized container file on simh v3.x and before. On > > simh 4.x, > > the container file will be created to the full size of the respective drive > > without > > regard to the answer to the “Overwrite last track? [N]” question. > > > > Maybe the message: > > > > ?DUP-F-Size function failed > > > > Happens when an empty container is provided (without a DEC STD 144 bad > > block info)… > > > > - Mark > > That could be, but shouldn't the device type, if supplied, control what is > reported? And presumably that has a default, so if the container isn't pre- > extended the default type would apply. That would be the case if the container had no recognizable file system on it, otherwise the size of the file system overrides. > The file system based auto-sizing lets SIMH figure out what the type is given > an > undersized container and a file system it knows that allows it to deduce the > size. But without that you should still be able to force the size, right? Explicitly stating the drive type with: SET RLn RL01|RL02 disables autosizing. However, with autosizing disabled, if a file system is recognized in the container, AND the file system size exceeds the size of the specified drive type, the attach fails with an explanation to this effect. Hopefully you wouldn't want a different behavior under these circumstances. - Mark ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
> On Feb 12, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Mark Pizzolato wrote: > > Recent versions of the simh PDP11 will correctly auto size (RL01 vs RL02) > disk containers that have or don’t have the DEC STD 144 bad block table at > the end of the drive as long as the disk image has an RT11 file system on it. > If it has an RT11 file system that fact will be reported. > > The prompt “Overwrite last track? [N]” is actually asking a question about > whether the DEC STD 144 bad block table should be written. The default of > “[N]” will create a 0 sized container file on simh v3.x and before. On simh > 4.x, the container file will be created to the full size of the respective > drive without regard to the answer to the “Overwrite last track? [N]” > question. > > Maybe the message: > > ?DUP-F-Size function failed > > Happens when an empty container is provided (without a DEC STD 144 bad block > info)… > > - Mark That could be, but shouldn't the device type, if supplied, control what is reported? And presumably that has a default, so if the container isn't pre-extended the default type would apply. The file system based auto-sizing lets SIMH figure out what the type is given an undersized container and a file system it knows that allows it to deduce the size. But without that you should still be able to force the size, right? paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
Recent versions of the simh PDP11 will correctly auto size (RL01 vs RL02) disk containers that have or don’t have the DEC STD 144 bad block table at the end of the drive as long as the disk image has an RT11 file system on it. If it has an RT11 file system that fact will be reported. The prompt “Overwrite last track? [N]” is actually asking a question about whether the DEC STD 144 bad block table should be written. The default of “[N]” will create a 0 sized container file on simh v3.x and before. On simh 4.x, the container file will be created to the full size of the respective drive without regard to the answer to the “Overwrite last track? [N]” question. Maybe the message: ?DUP-F-Size function failed Happens when an empty container is provided (without a DEC STD 144 bad block info)… - Mark From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 1:39 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain Yes, rt11dat and rt11run looks like RL01 “disks”, and rtv53_rl.dsk is an RL02 (and IIRC the distribution disk). Maybe you can add the following command after SET CPU and before the ATTACH RL statements. SET RL0 RL01 SET RL1 RL02 SET RL2 RL01 Then ATTACH them. But if I am right, you will need two empty RL02 disks, because when you boot from the RL1: you probably end up in the installation procedure which want to create a backup disk and a “working copy” disk (and store the distribution disk in a safe place As said, from DBIT you can get an empty RL02 image. Best to make (in Windows / Linux) a copy of the 3 files, and then proceed. If the rt11dat,dsk is indeed empty, it will not hurt to try .INIT /BADBLOCK RL2: Van: Ken Hall<mailto:kjhal...@gmail.com> Verzonden: woensdag 12 februari 2020 21:09 Aan: simh@trailing-edge.com<mailto:SimH@trailing-edge.com> Onderwerp: Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain Going by the size of the disk image files, I believe there’s a mix. These are downloaded disk images I pulled (literally) years ago, DL0 seems to be RL01, while DL1 is RL02: 5235200 Dec 21 2011 rt11dat.dsk 5235200 Feb 12 12:18 rt11run.dsk 10475520 May 10 2006 rtv53_rl.dsk The one I’m trying to initialize is rt11dat.dsk, it’s “empty”. The other two read/access just fine, but I’ve never tried to initialize them Startup cmd file is: SET CPU 1M ATTACH RL0 rt11run.dsk ATTACH RL1 rtv53_rl.dsk ATTACH RL2 rt11dat.dsk SET RL2 BADBLOCK BOOT RL0 I think that “BADBLOCK” option came from some suggestion way back, like I said, it’s been a long time since I touched this. From: Simh mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com>> On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 2:27 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com<mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain See below … Van: Ken Hall<mailto:kjhal...@gmail.com> Verzonden: woensdag 12 februari 2020 18:30 Aan: simh@trailing-edge.com<mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com> Onderwerp: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain I’ve played with RT11 on and off over the years, but the one thing I’ve never been able to do is properly initialize an empty disk. If I create a DL2: for example, and try to run initialize on it, I get back: .dir dl2: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory .init dl2: DL2:/Initialize; Are you sure? YES ?DUP-F-Size function failed This seems similar to the issues Henk Gooijen has been having with RK05’s, and it’s been so long since I’ve dealt with the real hardware I don’t recall exactly how this is supposed to work, but it seems to me it should just “work”. Has anyone found a solution to this? I can check that tomorrow. Maybe that is the reason you can download an empty but initialized RL02 image (zipped) from DBIT. If RT11 cannot figure out the size (5 MB or 10 MB / RL01 or RL02), maybe the command (in SIMH) .SET RL0 RL02 helps. You specify that RL0 is an RL02. Likewise, you can say .SET RL0 RL01. On a real PDP-11 with RL drives the system will recognize what type RL01 or RL02 is connected/loaded. You can have a mix of RL01 and RL02 drives on one RL11 controller. The .SET RLx RL01 (or RL02) command is not of RT11, but of SIMH. Give it a try For the write protect command for the RK drives, this is probably also a SIMH command. .SET RK0 WRITEENABLE *is* in SIMH (as is .SET RK0 LOCKED). ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
Yes, rt11dat and rt11run looks like RL01 “disks”, and rtv53_rl.dsk is an RL02 (and IIRC the distribution disk). Maybe you can add the following command after SET CPU and before the ATTACH RL statements. SET RL0 RL01 SET RL1 RL02 SET RL2 RL01 Then ATTACH them. But if I am right, you will need two empty RL02 disks, because when you boot from the RL1: you probably end up in the installation procedure which want to create a backup disk and a “working copy” disk (and store the distribution disk in a safe place As said, from DBIT you can get an empty RL02 image. Best to make (in Windows / Linux) a copy of the 3 files, and then proceed. If the rt11dat,dsk is indeed empty, it will not hurt to try .INIT /BADBLOCK RL2: Van: Ken Hall<mailto:kjhal...@gmail.com> Verzonden: woensdag 12 februari 2020 21:09 Aan: simh@trailing-edge.com<mailto:SimH@trailing-edge.com> Onderwerp: Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain Going by the size of the disk image files, I believe there’s a mix. These are downloaded disk images I pulled (literally) years ago, DL0 seems to be RL01, while DL1 is RL02: 5235200 Dec 21 2011 rt11dat.dsk 5235200 Feb 12 12:18 rt11run.dsk 10475520 May 10 2006 rtv53_rl.dsk The one I’m trying to initialize is rt11dat.dsk, it’s “empty”. The other two read/access just fine, but I’ve never tried to initialize them Startup cmd file is: SET CPU 1M ATTACH RL0 rt11run.dsk ATTACH RL1 rtv53_rl.dsk ATTACH RL2 rt11dat.dsk SET RL2 BADBLOCK BOOT RL0 I think that “BADBLOCK” option came from some suggestion way back, like I said, it’s been a long time since I touched this. From: Simh On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 2:27 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain See below … Van: Ken Hall<mailto:kjhal...@gmail.com> Verzonden: woensdag 12 februari 2020 18:30 Aan: simh@trailing-edge.com<mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com> Onderwerp: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain I’ve played with RT11 on and off over the years, but the one thing I’ve never been able to do is properly initialize an empty disk. If I create a DL2: for example, and try to run initialize on it, I get back: .dir dl2: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory .init dl2: DL2:/Initialize; Are you sure? YES ?DUP-F-Size function failed This seems similar to the issues Henk Gooijen has been having with RK05’s, and it’s been so long since I’ve dealt with the real hardware I don’t recall exactly how this is supposed to work, but it seems to me it should just “work”. Has anyone found a solution to this? I can check that tomorrow. Maybe that is the reason you can download an empty but initialized RL02 image (zipped) from DBIT. If RT11 cannot figure out the size (5 MB or 10 MB / RL01 or RL02), maybe the command (in SIMH) .SET RL0 RL02 helps. You specify that RL0 is an RL02. Likewise, you can say .SET RL0 RL01. On a real PDP-11 with RL drives the system will recognize what type RL01 or RL02 is connected/loaded. You can have a mix of RL01 and RL02 drives on one RL11 controller. The .SET RLx RL01 (or RL02) command is not of RT11, but of SIMH. Give it a try For the write protect command for the RK drives, this is probably also a SIMH command. .SET RK0 WRITEENABLE *is* in SIMH (as is .SET RK0 LOCKED). ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
Going by the size of the disk image files, I believe there’s a mix. These are downloaded disk images I pulled (literally) years ago, DL0 seems to be RL01, while DL1 is RL02: 5235200 Dec 21 2011 rt11dat.dsk 5235200 Feb 12 12:18 rt11run.dsk 10475520 May 10 2006 rtv53_rl.dsk The one I’m trying to initialize is rt11dat.dsk, it’s “empty”. The other two read/access just fine, but I’ve never tried to initialize them Startup cmd file is: SET CPU 1M ATTACH RL0 rt11run.dsk ATTACH RL1 rtv53_rl.dsk ATTACH RL2 rt11dat.dsk SET RL2 BADBLOCK BOOT RL0 I think that “BADBLOCK” option came from some suggestion way back, like I said, it’s been a long time since I touched this. From: Simh On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 2:27 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain See below … Van: Ken Hall <mailto:kjhal...@gmail.com> Verzonden: woensdag 12 februari 2020 18:30 Aan: simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com> Onderwerp: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain I’ve played with RT11 on and off over the years, but the one thing I’ve never been able to do is properly initialize an empty disk. If I create a DL2: for example, and try to run initialize on it, I get back: .dir dl2: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory .init dl2: DL2:/Initialize; Are you sure? YES ?DUP-F-Size function failed This seems similar to the issues Henk Gooijen has been having with RK05’s, and it’s been so long since I’ve dealt with the real hardware I don’t recall exactly how this is supposed to work, but it seems to me it should just “work”. Has anyone found a solution to this? I can check that tomorrow. Maybe that is the reason you can download an empty but initialized RL02 image (zipped) from DBIT. If RT11 cannot figure out the size (5 MB or 10 MB / RL01 or RL02), maybe the command (in SIMH) .SET RL0 RL02 helps. You specify that RL0 is an RL02. Likewise, you can say .SET RL0 RL01. On a real PDP-11 with RL drives the system will recognize what type RL01 or RL02 is connected/loaded. You can have a mix of RL01 and RL02 drives on one RL11 controller. The .SET RLx RL01 (or RL02) command is not of RT11, but of SIMH. Give it a try For the write protect command for the RK drives, this is probably also a SIMH command. .SET RK0 WRITEENABLE *is* in SIMH (as is .SET RK0 LOCKED). ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
See below … Van: Ken Hall<mailto:kjhal...@gmail.com> Verzonden: woensdag 12 februari 2020 18:30 Aan: simh@trailing-edge.com<mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com> Onderwerp: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain I’ve played with RT11 on and off over the years, but the one thing I’ve never been able to do is properly initialize an empty disk. If I create a DL2: for example, and try to run initialize on it, I get back: .dir dl2: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory .init dl2: DL2:/Initialize; Are you sure? YES ?DUP-F-Size function failed This seems similar to the issues Henk Gooijen has been having with RK05’s, and it’s been so long since I’ve dealt with the real hardware I don’t recall exactly how this is supposed to work, but it seems to me it should just “work”. Has anyone found a solution to this? I can check that tomorrow. Maybe that is the reason you can download an empty but initialized RL02 image (zipped) from DBIT. If RT11 cannot figure out the size (5 MB or 10 MB / RL01 or RL02), maybe the command (in SIMH) .SET RL0 RL02 helps. You specify that RL0 is an RL02. Likewise, you can say .SET RL0 RL01. On a real PDP-11 with RL drives the system will recognize what type RL01 or RL02 is connected/loaded. You can have a mix of RL01 and RL02 drives on one RL11 controller. The .SET RLx RL01 (or RL02) command is not of RT11, but of SIMH. Give it a try For the write protect command for the RK drives, this is probably also a SIMH command. .SET RK0 WRITEENABLE *is* in SIMH (as is .SET RK0 LOCKED). ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
The DL handler supports both RL01 and RL02 or a mix of them. I believe "DUP-F-Size function failed" means that DL handler special function 373 (SF.SIZ) was unable to determine the size (RL01 vs RL02) of the volume... will delve into the driver source and see why this might not be working with SIMH. Tim On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 12:30 PM Ken Hall wrote: > I’ve played with RT11 on and off over the years, but the one thing I’ve > never been able to do is properly initialize an empty disk. If I create a > DL2: for example, and try to run initialize on it, I get back: > > > > .dir dl2: > > ?DIR-F-Error reading directory > > > > .init dl2: > > DL2:/Initialize; Are you sure? YES > > ?DUP-F-Size function failed > > > > This seems similar to the issues Henk Gooijen has been having with RK05’s, > and it’s been so long since I’ve dealt with the real hardware I don’t > recall exactly how this is supposed to work, but it seems to me it should > just “work”. > > > > Has anyone found a solution to this? > > > > > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
> On Feb 12, 2020, at 12:30 PM, Ken Hall wrote: > > I’ve played with RT11 on and off over the years, but the one thing I’ve never > been able to do is properly initialize an empty disk. If I create a DL2: for > example, and try to run initialize on it, I get back: > > .dir dl2: > ?DIR-F-Error reading directory > > .init dl2: > DL2:/Initialize; Are you sure? YES > ?DUP-F-Size function failed > > This seems similar to the issues Henk Gooijen has been having with RK05’s, > and it’s been so long since I’ve dealt with the real hardware I don’t recall > exactly how this is supposed to work, but it seems to me it should just > “work”. > > Has anyone found a solution to this? I don't see that, at least not with RK05: RT-11FBV02C-02 . Simulation stopped, PC: 155450 (JSR PC,142336) sim> att rk1 newrk.dsk RK: creating new file sim> c R PIP *RK1:/Z RK1:/Z ARE YOU SURE ?Y *^C . paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] Initializing disks (triggered by the "Something Strange with RK05" chain
I've played with RT11 on and off over the years, but the one thing I've never been able to do is properly initialize an empty disk. If I create a DL2: for example, and try to run initialize on it, I get back: .dir dl2: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory .init dl2: DL2:/Initialize; Are you sure? YES ?DUP-F-Size function failed This seems similar to the issues Henk Gooijen has been having with RK05's, and it's been so long since I've dealt with the real hardware I don't recall exactly how this is supposed to work, but it seems to me it should just "work". Has anyone found a solution to this? ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
