Re: [Simh] Now some DZ/terminal questions

[Johnny Billquist]

Clem...

On 2017-03-09 15:58, Clem Cole wrote:

Warren,

We can take this offline.   The quick answer is as far as simh is
concerned leave everything as 8 bits.
I'll show you how to make the rest work properly.  The logins will run 8
bits also, but will run with parity enabled which BSD will handle just
peachy.


As far as I remember, Unixes normally deal with this in the driver, but 
correct me if I'm wrong.



Also, as I mentioned independently, I very much recommend not using DZs,
but using DH's.   Most BSD UNIX boxes ran with Able DHDM's because there
were both higher performant and cheaper than 2 DZ-11 (the cost of single
Able unit got you 16 ports, compared to 8 from DEC, plus they worked
better).  The DZ were originally developed by DEC as a cost reduced
terminal interface to the original DH11 - which was a full system unit
on the Unibus and the DM11 (modem control was an option).  So they took
of a lot of space/power etc.

Unfortunately the DZ were CPU hog's (see one of Bill Joy's notes circa
1979-80 - which I probably have somewhere) and sadly the DZ's did not
support full modem control (which was always a SW nightmare).  I would
later get to know some of the folks that made those choices from DEC's
HW team (they originally screwed up the original MC-500 serial boards
also but that's another story).

Anyway, int he late 1970's Able's Ken O cloned/enhanced the DH and DM
into a single hex board and since the UNIX community was often
university folk, driven by cost (and the DHDM [Able's product] plus did
flow control in HW) they were the gold standard for UUCP, particularly
with Trailblazer et al.


Totally agree. The DZ11 was/is a horrible device. But it must have been 
dirt cheap, as they can still be found everywhere a Unibus exists, more 
or less. I don't know how many I have piled up.


CPU hog only starts to describe it. It interrupts on each character in 
or out, which makes it a really big burden on the CPU. Add that to the 
VAX, which wasn't exactly fast at dealing with interrupts in the first 
place, and you could more or less kill the machine with a few serial 
lines. (It was really bad on a PDP-11 as well.)


The DH11 was a much better device, doing DMA instead, but as you 
mention, it was large. Also, not supported on VAXen.

Able's DH11 clone was a really sweet device. Love it.

DEC came out with the DHU-11 later on, which was similar in many ways.

I never cared much for hardware flow control myself, but for those who 
did, the DZ11 was also a problem, as you say.


All in all, people should just avoid the DZ-11 whenever they have a chance.

Johnny




As I said, we can take this off line, and I'll help you.

Clem

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 7:03 AM, Warren Toomey > wrote:

Hi all, thanks for your help with my earlier questions.

I'd like to set up several vax780 instances and run uucp (over TCP)
between them using one or more of the simulated DZ lines. But I want to
use the remaining DZ lines for logins.

Is there a way to set some DZ lines into 8-bit mode but keep the
other DZ lines in 7-bit mode? Only the uucp lines need to be 8-bit,
the normal login lines can be 7-bit.

Is there a way to set bind some (but not all) DZ lines to localhost
port X,
and some (but not all) DZ lines to any address port Y (or X, doesn't
matter)?
I want to make the uucp DZ TCP ports visible on the Internet, but
set the
normal login ports visible only to localhost.

Many thanks, Warren
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--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Re: [Simh] Now some DZ/terminal questions

[Mark Pizzolato]

On Thursday, March 9, 2017 at 4:04 AM, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Is there a way to set bind some (but not all) DZ lines to localhost port X,
> and some (but not all) DZ lines to any address port Y (or X, doesn't matter)?
> I want to make the uucp DZ TCP ports visible on the Internet, but set the
> normal login ports visible only to localhost.

There is no way to have different collections of lines bound to different 
TCP ports.  There is a way to have individual lines have their own listen port
while all other lines share a single listen port.

sim> ATTACH DZ X,Line=3,Y,line=4,Z

will have line 3 listen on TCP port Y and line listen on TCP port Z and all 
other lines will get connections on TCP port X.

The details of what is configured is visible with the SHOW MUX command.

- Mark
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Re: [Simh] Now some DZ/terminal questions

[Clem Cole]

Warren,

We can take this offline.   The quick answer is as far as simh is concerned
leave everything as 8 bits.
I'll show you how to make the rest work properly.  The logins will run 8
bits also, but will run with parity enabled which BSD will handle just
peachy.

Also, as I mentioned independently, I very much recommend not using DZs,
but using DH's.   Most BSD UNIX boxes ran with Able DHDM's because there
were both higher performant and cheaper than 2 DZ-11 (the cost of single
Able unit got you 16 ports, compared to 8 from DEC, plus they worked
better).  The DZ were originally developed by DEC as a cost reduced
terminal interface to the original DH11 - which was a full system unit on
the Unibus and the DM11 (modem control was an option).  So they took of a
lot of space/power etc.

Unfortunately the DZ were CPU hog's (see one of Bill Joy's notes circa
1979-80 - which I probably have somewhere) and sadly the DZ's did not
support full modem control (which was always a SW nightmare).  I would
later get to know some of the folks that made those choices from DEC's HW
team (they originally screwed up the original MC-500 serial boards also but
that's another story).

Anyway, int he late 1970's Able's Ken O cloned/enhanced the DH and DM into
a single hex board and since the UNIX community was often university folk,
driven by cost (and the DHDM [Able's product] plus did flow control in HW)
they were the gold standard for UUCP, particularly with Trailblazer et al.


As I said, we can take this off line, and I'll help you.

Clem

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 7:03 AM, Warren Toomey  wrote:

> Hi all, thanks for your help with my earlier questions.
>
> I'd like to set up several vax780 instances and run uucp (over TCP)
> between them using one or more of the simulated DZ lines. But I want to
> use the remaining DZ lines for logins.
>
> Is there a way to set some DZ lines into 8-bit mode but keep the
> other DZ lines in 7-bit mode? Only the uucp lines need to be 8-bit,
> the normal login lines can be 7-bit.
>
> Is there a way to set bind some (but not all) DZ lines to localhost port X,
> and some (but not all) DZ lines to any address port Y (or X, doesn't
> matter)?
> I want to make the uucp DZ TCP ports visible on the Internet, but set the
> normal login ports visible only to localhost.
>
> Many thanks, Warren
> ___
> Simh mailing list
> Simh@trailing-edge.com
> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
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