Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Bob Eager]

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 01:21:44 +0200
Johnny Billquist  wrote:

> On 2016-10-26 21:14, Paul Koning wrote:
> >  
> >> On Oct 23, 2016, at 4:11 PM, Bob Eager  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:07:33 -0400
> >> Paul Koning  wrote:
> >>  
> >>> ...  
> >>  
> >>> RT-11 is very clean.  I've worked with V2A (the FB version when
> >>> possible, SJ when I didn't have enough memory).  They are very
> >>> simple and compact; the UI is the old TOPS-10 style, not the
> >>> newer bloated "DCL" interface.  So a V2 era edition would be a
> >>> good way to go.  
> >>
> >> Yes, it's very nice. Someone once gave me electronic copies of some
> >> sources (circa 1975) and I read them with glee. Lovely comments,
> >> too: the system call dispatcher had the comment "What's it going
> >> to be then, eh?" from the Clockwork Orange. I think those comments
> >> were only in the FB monitor.  
> >
> > Yes.  They were the work of the FB designer, Anton Chernoff, later
> > my mentor in college.  I lifted the idea later on; some of the
> > DECnet/E source code has neat quotes in it.  Unfortunately, those
> > aren't so visible because DECnet/E sources were never
> > distributed... :-(  
> 
> That practice were clearly also around in the software for the PDP-8.
> I remember quite some enjoyment reading about the financial state of
> the Pony Express in the mid 19th century in the FORTRAN-IV runtime
> system.

It prompted me to do the same, particularly in some terminal software I
wrote part of around that time. The commands could be abbreviated as
long as they stayed unique, modelled on my experience of TOPS-10 a bit
earlier.

(the software was called YAROE - Yet Another Rewrite Of Everything)
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-10-26 21:14, Paul Koning wrote:



On Oct 23, 2016, at 4:11 PM, Bob Eager  wrote:

On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:07:33 -0400
Paul Koning  wrote:


...



RT-11 is very clean.  I've worked with V2A (the FB version when
possible, SJ when I didn't have enough memory).  They are very simple
and compact; the UI is the old TOPS-10 style, not the newer bloated
"DCL" interface.  So a V2 era edition would be a good way to go.


Yes, it's very nice. Someone once gave me electronic copies of some
sources (circa 1975) and I read them with glee. Lovely comments, too:
the system call dispatcher had the comment "What's it going to be then,
eh?" from the Clockwork Orange. I think those comments were only in the
FB monitor.


Yes.  They were the work of the FB designer, Anton Chernoff, later my mentor in 
college.  I lifted the idea later on; some of the DECnet/E source code has neat 
quotes in it.  Unfortunately, those aren't so visible because DECnet/E sources 
were never distributed... :-(


That practice were clearly also around in the software for the PDP-8. I 
remember quite some enjoyment reading about the financial state of the 
Pony Express in the mid 19th century in the FORTRAN-IV runtime system.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-10-26 21:01, Paul Koning wrote:



On Oct 26, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Rich Alderson  
wrote:


From: Ray Jewhurst 
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 10:44:05 -0400



I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec


No, you don't.  Mentec has not existed for many years now.  The remains
of the PDP-11 intellectual property have been in the hands of XX2247 for
several years.


True.


Yup.


Then again, if someone had a Mentec license, that would still be good unless it 
had some expiration clause.


Yup. And I know of places that do have Mentec licenses.


I wonder if the Mentec hobbyist general license letter is still in force.  I 
would assume so unless it has been withdrawn.


That license should still be in effect, but there are more general 
problems with that license, which are a different story that I'm sure 
you know about.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Jacob Goense]

Oh, and of course there is Fuzzball, the early IP/TCP and NTP
testbed for the PDP-11 using RT-11 for build and boot. Later
on it ran production timeservers and the first NSFNet backbone.
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[khandy21yo]

There is the Commodore64 OS. Didn't it leave the file system stuff to the disk 
drive?
Is XXDP source available? that would represent a very simple OS.
Cp// was available for several machines, but I wouldn't want to based a new OS 
on it.



Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: Rich Alderson 
<s...@alderson.users.panix.com> Date: 10/26/16  1:06 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: 
simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] RT-11 source 
> From: Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se>
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 03:11:05 +0200

> In fact, I would probably suggest Ray start with just writing some code 
> to do some simple things without looking at existing code. The first 
> thing needed would be to just have something that can load programs from 
> a device, and run them. This will require some simple device driver, 
> some simple file system, and a simple command line interpreter.
   ^^

That's not even needed.  Beyond a 44 character file id in the VTOC on a disk,
none of the IBM batch operating systems for the System/360 has what we would
call a file system.  OS/360 requires the programmer to know how much space a
file might occupy in its lifetime and allocate that (including overflow areas);
DOS/360 requires the programmer to do all of that, *AND IN ADDITION* to define
the exact location of the file on disk.  I don't think anyone would argue that
those operating systems were unsuccessful in the marketplace.

Just sayin'.

    Rich
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Ethan Dicks]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 4:13 PM, David Holland
 wrote:
> (Not that I can add much to the thread.)   Other than the Minix, and split
> I/D discussion tickled an old memory..
>
> I'd say it depends on the the version of Minix.
>
> My Google Foo Finds these two threads (quickly) WRT Minix & split I/D.
>
> http://www.verycomputer.com/79_f57ba779880523a6_1.htm

Ah... well it seems to matter on the version, but MINIX 1.0 through
1.2 might be small enough to fit.

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/vmsnet.pdp-11/Azzk6fQHmLE
>
> The latter is funny in this context, that thread is only 12 years old.

Indeed.

The mention in one of those threads of a "free 'for-real' C compiler"
is well said.  ISTR the thing that made MINIX possible in the first
place was the Amsterdam C compiler which, for reasons of cost, was not
available to most of the readers of Tanenbaum's book so it wasn't
possible for most of us to recompile from source anyway.  Back in the
1980s, we had a project at work that was based on our other
68000-based products, and the development environment chosen was a
Perkin-Elmer 4-user UNIX workstation in large part because it _came
with a C compiler that emitted M68K object code_ that we then
transmuted into .o files that worked with our in-house assembler to
build the kernel for our product.  The cost of a standalone C
cross-compiler for a "real machine" in 1984 was hideous compared to
the cost of a UNIX workstation that already had a compiler as part of
its necessary tool set.  The world is different today, but I'd still
approach the project of a new UNIX-like OS port to the PDP-11 by
answering the question of what C compiler is going to be used for this
task, and add to that the question of how well does it integrate with
a few percent of PDP-11 assembler source.  Define the toolchain first
and the source kinda falls into place.

-ethan
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 23, 2016, at 4:11 PM, Bob Eager  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:07:33 -0400
> Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
>> ...
> 
>> RT-11 is very clean.  I've worked with V2A (the FB version when
>> possible, SJ when I didn't have enough memory).  They are very simple
>> and compact; the UI is the old TOPS-10 style, not the newer bloated
>> "DCL" interface.  So a V2 era edition would be a good way to go.
> 
> Yes, it's very nice. Someone once gave me electronic copies of some
> sources (circa 1975) and I read them with glee. Lovely comments, too:
> the system call dispatcher had the comment "What's it going to be then,
> eh?" from the Clockwork Orange. I think those comments were only in the
> FB monitor.

Yes.  They were the work of the FB designer, Anton Chernoff, later my mentor in 
college.  I lifted the idea later on; some of the DECnet/E source code has neat 
quotes in it.  Unfortunately, those aren't so visible because DECnet/E sources 
were never distributed... :-(

paul


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 26, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Rich Alderson  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Johnny Billquist 
>> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 03:11:05 +0200
> 
>> In fact, I would probably suggest Ray start with just writing some code 
>> to do some simple things without looking at existing code. The first 
>> thing needed would be to just have something that can load programs from 
>> a device, and run them. This will require some simple device driver, 
>> some simple file system, and a simple command line interpreter.
>   ^^
> 
> That's not even needed.  Beyond a 44 character file id in the VTOC on a disk,
> none of the IBM batch operating systems for the System/360 has what we would
> call a file system.  OS/360 requires the programmer to know how much space a
> file might occupy in its lifetime and allocate that (including overflow 
> areas);
> DOS/360 requires the programmer to do all of that, *AND IN ADDITION* to define
> the exact location of the file on disk.  I don't think anyone would argue that
> those operating systems were unsuccessful in the marketplace.

That's true.  But since Ray is talking about doing this for educational 
purposes, it would make sense to limit the discussion to reasonably well 
designed operating systems -- which would exclude IBM products from the subject 
space.  Clearly by around 1960 or so, OS designers in many other companies 
understood how to do this sort of thing sanely.

paul


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Rich Alderson]

> From: Johnny Billquist 
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 03:11:05 +0200

> In fact, I would probably suggest Ray start with just writing some code 
> to do some simple things without looking at existing code. The first 
> thing needed would be to just have something that can load programs from 
> a device, and run them. This will require some simple device driver, 
> some simple file system, and a simple command line interpreter.
   ^^

That's not even needed.  Beyond a 44 character file id in the VTOC on a disk,
none of the IBM batch operating systems for the System/360 has what we would
call a file system.  OS/360 requires the programmer to know how much space a
file might occupy in its lifetime and allocate that (including overflow areas);
DOS/360 requires the programmer to do all of that, *AND IN ADDITION* to define
the exact location of the file on disk.  I don't think anyone would argue that
those operating systems were unsuccessful in the marketplace.

Just sayin'.

Rich
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Ethan Dicks]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?

I know there's MINIX for the 68000 and SPARC (as of 2.0) and of ARM
(as of 3.0), but I've never heard of MINIX for the PDP-11.  Given that
MINIX 1.0 will run on a 5150-type IBM PC, the utilities and such
should fit into a 64KB address space, but without some digging
wouldn't know if they also depend on split I or not (since that's
"free" on Intel CPUs).

It might be do-able, but wouldn't be done quickly.  I remember more
than a little IBM assembler in the MINIX sources, and I don't recall
how tightly the old stuff is tied to the processor and/or ISA Bus
implementation.

-ethan
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 26, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Rich Alderson  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Ray Jewhurst 
>> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 10:44:05 -0400
> 
>> I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec
> 
> No, you don't.  Mentec has not existed for many years now.  The remains
> of the PDP-11 intellectual property have been in the hands of XX2247 for
> several years.

True.

Then again, if someone had a Mentec license, that would still be good unless it 
had some expiration clause.

I wonder if the Mentec hobbyist general license letter is still in force.  I 
would assume so unless it has been withdrawn.

paul


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Rich Alderson]

> From: Ray Jewhurst 
> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 10:44:05 -0400

> I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec

No, you don't.  Mentec has not existed for many years now.  The remains
of the PDP-11 intellectual property have been in the hands of XX2247 for
several years.

Rich
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Dave Wade]

PDP-11 OS’s or OS’s in general? 

IBM’s S/370 VM/370R6 (a very old version) has two OS’s CP and CMS and both can 
be built from source..

 

Dave

G4UGM

 

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of khandy21yo
Sent: 23 October 2016 21:12
To: Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org>; simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

 

Is there a list of OS that have sufficient sources to rebuild it?

Would be intresting to those who want to play.research OS designs.

I suspect a lot of the old OS have lost their source code.

 

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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[khandy21yo]

Is there a list of OS that have sufficient sources to rebuild it?Would be 
intresting to those who want to play.research OS designs.I suspect a lot of the 
old OS have lost their source code.
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Bob Eager]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:07:33 -0400
Paul Koning  wrote:

> I've never seen DOS sources.  Also, DOS/Batch is a later version with
> more stuff in it.  DOS V4 might be better.

I couldn't agree more. We had DOS/BATCH on an 11/20 in about 1974 (we'd
had it for a year or two before I got my hands one it). 

I know someone had to patch it as it used 12 bits for the date:

  date = (year-1970)*1000 + day in month

They called it a Julian date (which it wasn't, and of course it was
incredibly bit-wasteful). It 'ran out' in March 1974, and the patch was
regularly applied to fix dates so that we worked in the middle of a
four year window.

We also put it on RK05s, and I remember reading the (badly xeroxed)
sources that DEC gave us, and working out how to patch it to fix a
fairly nasty bug in the RK05 driver.

But it was amazingly small - 4kB resident, with hundreds of tiny
overlays. I think running a program used four 128kB overlays.

> On the other hand, DOS is a truly evil operating system.  I don't
> know its internals, but just from using it you can tell it should
> never be used as a model.

Indeed! I did fire it up on SIMH a while ago.

> RT-11 is very clean.  I've worked with V2A (the FB version when
> possible, SJ when I didn't have enough memory).  They are very simple
> and compact; the UI is the old TOPS-10 style, not the newer bloated
> "DCL" interface.  So a V2 era edition would be a good way to go.

Yes, it's very nice. Someone once gave me electronic copies of some
sources (circa 1975) and I read them with glee. Lovely comments, too:
the system call dispatcher had the comment "What's it going to be then,
eh?" from the Clockwork Orange. I think those comments were only in the
FB monitor.

I assembled it on DOS/BATCH, and wrote programs in MACRO-11 to convert
the binaries to RT-11 format. I also wrote stuff to make a bootable
DECtape, got it running, and used that to transfer it to disk!
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Al Kossow]

On 10/23/16 11:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> I've never seen DOS sources.  Also, DOS/Batch is a later version with more 
> stuff in it.  DOS V4 might be better.
> 
> On the other hand, DOS is a truly evil operating system.  I don't know its 
> internals, but just from using it you can tell it should never be used as a 
> model.
> 
> RT-11 is very clean.  I've worked with V2A (the FB version when possible, SJ 
> when I didn't have enough memory).  They are very simple and compact; the UI 
> is the old TOPS-10 style, not the newer bloated "DCL" interface.  So a V2 era 
> edition would be a good way to go.
> 


DOS and RT V2C sources are on the (pretty much disorganized) dectape images 
under
www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/dectape/BS/

V2CT1   DEC-11-ORTSA-E-UA1  3/16/76
RT-11 V02C SOURCE TAPE 1 OF 6
V2CT2   RT-11 V02C SOURCE TAPE 2 OF 6
V2CT3   RT-11 V02C SOURCE TAPE 3 OF 6
V2CT4   RT-11 V02C SOURCE TAPE 4 OF 6
V2CT5   RT-11 V02C SOURCE TAPE 5 OF 6
V2CT6   RT-11 V02C SOURCE TAPE 6 OF 6

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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 22, 2016, at 10:19 PM, Ray Jewhurst  wrote:
> 
> Thank you Johnny. I may ruffle some feathers, but I hate C.  I am mildly 
> autistic and the way my mind works I actually prefer assembly over high level 
> languages. I would really like a blueprint to see what I am doing. Is there 
> commented code for DOS/BATCH? Or even CAPS-11. I would like love to see a 
> fully commented kernel to see what I am up against.

I've never seen DOS sources.  Also, DOS/Batch is a later version with more 
stuff in it.  DOS V4 might be better.

On the other hand, DOS is a truly evil operating system.  I don't know its 
internals, but just from using it you can tell it should never be used as a 
model.

RT-11 is very clean.  I've worked with V2A (the FB version when possible, SJ 
when I didn't have enough memory).  They are very simple and compact; the UI is 
the old TOPS-10 style, not the newer bloated "DCL" interface.  So a V2 era 
edition would be a good way to go.

paul

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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 23, 2016, at 9:41 AM, billdeg  wrote:
> 
> Earlier I claimed that a copy of rt11 source was on a page about Project 
> Delta, I was wrong, it was RSTS/E, the link here:
> 
> https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mader/delta/downloadrsts.html
> 
> Bill

Those are binaries (distribution kits), not sources.

paul


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Tom Morris]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Jacob Goense  wrote:

> On 2016-10-22 17:46, Jacob Goense wrote:
>
>> I vaguely recall lore about 4.x BSD stuff being ported to the PDP-11
>> ending
>> with the machine being thrown out of the window. Citations are welcome, or
>> maybe this should be crossed over to TUHS.
>>
>
> Found it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVSXXeiFLgk (31:50 - 33:33)


Link with timecode: https://youtu.be/bVSXXeiFLgk?t=31m50s
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Davis Johnson]

You might think that the Tanenbaum book would be narrowly focused on 
Minix. It isn't -- it covers operating system concepts in general.


I recommend the book more than the OS. Minix is written to be an 
understandable classroom example. It does things that a serious OS 
probably would optimize better. For example a generic hardware interrupt 
handler adds a device specific interrupt handler to the process queue 
that is scheduled as a high priority process by the process scheduler. 
Unibus interrupts on a 780 weren't that bad.



On 10/23/2016 12:23 PM, Dave Wade wrote:


Ray,

I really suggest that you look at the Tanenbaum book. It goes into 
each component of an operating system and explains the structures that 
it uses and how the parts fit together. Looking at the code often does 
not explain this. Even were there are comments the usually don’t 
explain how things mesh, which is all important.


Dave

*From:*Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] *On Behalf Of *Ray 
Jewhurst

*Sent:* 23 October 2016 03:20
*To:* Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se>
*Cc:* simh@trailing-edge.com
*Subject:* Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

Thank you Johnny. I may ruffle some feathers, but I hate C.  I am 
mildly autistic and the way my mind works I actually prefer assembly 
over high level languages. I would really like a blueprint to see what 
I am doing. Is there commented code for DOS/BATCH? Or even CAPS-11. I 
would like love to see a fully commented kernel to see what I am up 
against.


Thanks
Ray

On Oct 22, 2016 9:11 PM, "Johnny Billquist" <b...@softjar.se 
<mailto:b...@softjar.se>> wrote:


While we're at it then... Ray asked for RT-11, since he felt that
it was smaller and simpler than most other operating systems
available, and also because he felt more comfortable with
assembler than some other language.

Both those points are missed with any Unix-like OS, even if the
intention is good.

I could just as well offer up RSX, since it actually comes with
source where the comments are still in place, and it's actually
written in assembler for the most part as well. However, it is a
much more complex system than RT-11, and in some ways probably
more complex than Unix as well. So I don't think it might be a
good choice if you just want to understand how an OS works.

In fact, I would probably suggest Ray start with just writing some
code to do some simple things without looking at existing code.
The first thing needed would be to just have something that can
load programs from a device, and run them. This will require some
simple device driver, some simple file system, and a simple
command line interpreter. Then you can go on an expand from there.
You'll soon realize things you want to abstract away, and deal
with in a somewhat coherent way.
I wouldn't bother with interrupt system, MMU, or any more fancy
stuff to start with. A plain 64K PDP-11, with the program loader
just located in one end, and then go from there. Do system calls
through TRAP, EMT or some other instruction, and then have a
vector installed. If the user program overwrites that, tough luck.

Johnny



On 2016-10-23 02:45, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:

Ray Jewhurst <raywjewhu...@gmail.com
<mailto:raywjewhu...@gmail.com>> asks today for documented
operating system source code for the PDP-11. Besides the
Lions' Unix
v6 code, there is also Doug Comer's Xinu project about which
he wrote
several books.  Current versions are targeted at x86 and ARM CPUs,

http://www.xinu.cs.purdue.edu/

but he still provides code for older systems (PDP-11, SPARC, VAX):

ftp://ftp.cs.purdue.edu/pub/comer/

There is more about him here, including links to his books Web
site:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Comer


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Dave Wade]

Ray,

 

I really suggest that you look at the Tanenbaum book. It goes into each 
component of an operating system and explains the structures that it uses and 
how the parts fit together. Looking at the code often does not explain this. 
Even were there are comments the usually don’t explain how things mesh, which 
is all important.

 

Dave

 

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Ray Jewhurst
Sent: 23 October 2016 03:20
To: Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se>
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

 

Thank you Johnny. I may ruffle some feathers, but I hate C.  I am mildly 
autistic and the way my mind works I actually prefer assembly over high level 
languages. I would really like a blueprint to see what I am doing. Is there 
commented code for DOS/BATCH? Or even CAPS-11. I would like love to see a fully 
commented kernel to see what I am up against. 

Thanks 
Ray 

 

On Oct 22, 2016 9:11 PM, "Johnny Billquist" <b...@softjar.se 
<mailto:b...@softjar.se> > wrote:

While we're at it then... Ray asked for RT-11, since he felt that it was 
smaller and simpler than most other operating systems available, and also 
because he felt more comfortable with assembler than some other language.

Both those points are missed with any Unix-like OS, even if the intention is 
good.

I could just as well offer up RSX, since it actually comes with source where 
the comments are still in place, and it's actually written in assembler for the 
most part as well. However, it is a much more complex system than RT-11, and in 
some ways probably more complex than Unix as well. So I don't think it might be 
a good choice if you just want to understand how an OS works.

In fact, I would probably suggest Ray start with just writing some code to do 
some simple things without looking at existing code. The first thing needed 
would be to just have something that can load programs from a device, and run 
them. This will require some simple device driver, some simple file system, and 
a simple command line interpreter. Then you can go on an expand from there. 
You'll soon realize things you want to abstract away, and deal with in a 
somewhat coherent way.
I wouldn't bother with interrupt system, MMU, or any more fancy stuff to start 
with. A plain 64K PDP-11, with the program loader just located in one end, and 
then go from there. Do system calls through TRAP, EMT or some other 
instruction, and then have a vector installed. If the user program overwrites 
that, tough luck.

Johnny



On 2016-10-23 02:45, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:

Ray Jewhurst <raywjewhu...@gmail.com <mailto:raywjewhu...@gmail.com> > asks 
today for documented
operating system source code for the PDP-11.  Besides the Lions' Unix
v6 code, there is also Doug Comer's Xinu project about which he wrote
several books.  Current versions are targeted at x86 and ARM CPUs,

http://www.xinu.cs.purdue.edu/

but he still provides code for older systems (PDP-11, SPARC, VAX):

ftp://ftp.cs.purdue.edu/pub/comer/

There is more about him here, including links to his books Web site:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Comer

---
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<tel:%2B1%20801%20581%205254>   -
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<tel:%2B1%20801%20581%204148>   -
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  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se>  ||  Reading murder 
books
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Al
> Kossow
> Sent: 22 October 2016 23:53
> To: simh@trailing-edge.com
> Subject: Re: [Simh] RT-11 source
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/22/16 2:46 PM, Jacob Goense wrote:
> > On 2016-10-22 12:55, Al Kossow wrote:
> >> On 10/22/16 7:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:
> >>> I have an idea for project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I
> would like to use RT-11 as an example
> >>>
> >>
> >> Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?
> >
> > No way.
> >
> 
> It ran on an 8088
> 

I think Minix and the Tannenbaum book are a great start for anyone wanting to 
learn about operating systems. The latest Minix 3 compiles with a public domain 
compiler. The book is available on Abe Books for under $10.

Dave
G4UGM

> 
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Al Kossow]

On 10/22/16 6:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> While we're at it then... Ray asked for RT-11, since he felt that it was 
> smaller and simpler than most other operating
> systems available, and also because he felt more comfortable with assembler 
> than some other language.
> 

If he's looking for something small, I'll try to find my copy of the RT-11 V2C 
sources today.

DOS-11 was a horror. RT-11 is much more in the spirit of OS-8


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Jacob Goense]

On 2016-10-22 17:46, Jacob Goense wrote:
I vaguely recall lore about 4.x BSD stuff being ported to the PDP-11 
ending
with the machine being thrown out of the window. Citations are welcome, 
or

maybe this should be crossed over to TUHS.


Found it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVSXXeiFLgk (31:50 - 33:33)
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-10-23 14:45, Rhialto wrote:

On Sat 22 Oct 2016 at 23:03:41 +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2016-10-22 18:55, Al Kossow wrote:



On 10/22/16 7:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:

I have an idea for project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would 
like to use RT-11 as an example



Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?


I don't think so. I suspect it would be non-trivial, as the memory
limitations of the PDP-11 require that you sometimes need to design with
that in mind from the start, or else face serious problems.


But the original 8086 MINIX (which I used in university in the course on
operating system design) used "small memory model". That means it sets
the segment registers for each process to a fixed value and therefore
its processes (including kernel server processes) were limited to 64KB
of text and 64KB of data. That would fit with PDP-11s with sepid just
fine.


Possible. I haven't looked at that code, so I can only guess. However, 
the segmentation registers essentially mean that you have more than 64K, 
as you note (64K+64K). With separate I/D space you accomplish the same 
on the -11, but it works in a different way, so depending on how the 
code is written, it could be easy, or it could turn out to be a real 
headache.
Like I said, you sometimes needs to design things with the hardware in 
mind, as the solutions might be very different, even with similar 
constraints.


And of course, this then requires that you handle the MMU on the -11. 
How did Minix work? I don't think the 8086 had much of a proper MMU. Did 
you have any memory protection, or did the kernel somehow live in your 
address space? If not, how did the remapping changes needed on 
interrupts work? (Yes, I do not know the 8086 that well...)



At some point during inter-process communication it no doubt uses the
segmentation registers more actively (I don't remember the details) but
that can be done in some other ways on the -11.


Everything is always possible. It's just a question of how much work, 
and how slow will the result be.


Johnny

--
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  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Rhialto]

On Sat 22 Oct 2016 at 23:03:41 +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2016-10-22 18:55, Al Kossow wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On 10/22/16 7:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:
> > > I have an idea for project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I 
> > > would like to use RT-11 as an example
> > > 
> > 
> > Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?
> 
> I don't think so. I suspect it would be non-trivial, as the memory
> limitations of the PDP-11 require that you sometimes need to design with
> that in mind from the start, or else face serious problems.

But the original 8086 MINIX (which I used in university in the course on
operating system design) used "small memory model". That means it sets
the segment registers for each process to a fixed value and therefore
its processes (including kernel server processes) were limited to 64KB
of text and 64KB of data. That would fit with PDP-11s with sepid just
fine.

At some point during inter-process communication it no doubt uses the
segmentation registers more actively (I don't remember the details) but
that can be done in some other ways on the -11.

>   Johnny
-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl-- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[khandy21yo]

CP/M works a lot like this. But it's for 8989 not PDP11. It's also been ported 
to several other systems. Source code is available, but many folks don't 
consider it an OS.


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> 
Date: 10/22/16  7:11 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: 
[Simh] RT-11 source 
While we're at it then... Ray asked for RT-11, since he felt that it was 
smaller and simpler than most other operating systems available, and 
also because he felt more comfortable with assembler than some other 
language.

Both those points are missed with any Unix-like OS, even if the 
intention is good.

I could just as well offer up RSX, since it actually comes with source 
where the comments are still in place, and it's actually written in 
assembler for the most part as well. However, it is a much more complex 
system than RT-11, and in some ways probably more complex than Unix as 
well. So I don't think it might be a good choice if you just want to 
understand how an OS works.

In fact, I would probably suggest Ray start with just writing some code 
to do some simple things without looking at existing code. The first 
thing needed would be to just have something that can load programs from 
a device, and run them. This will require some simple device driver, 
some simple file system, and a simple command line interpreter. Then you 
can go on an expand from there. You'll soon realize things you want to 
abstract away, and deal with in a somewhat coherent way.
I wouldn't bother with interrupt system, MMU, or any more fancy stuff to 
start with. A plain 64K PDP-11, with the program loader just located in 
one end, and then go from there. Do system calls through TRAP, EMT or 
some other instruction, and then have a vector installed. If the user 
program overwrites that, tough luck.

Johnny

On 2016-10-23 02:45, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> Ray Jewhurst <raywjewhu...@gmail.com> asks today for documented
> operating system source code for the PDP-11.  Besides the Lions' Unix
> v6 code, there is also Doug Comer's Xinu project about which he wrote
> several books.  Current versions are targeted at x86 and ARM CPUs,
>
>   http://www.xinu.cs.purdue.edu/
>
> but he still provides code for older systems (PDP-11, SPARC, VAX):
>
>   ftp://ftp.cs.purdue.edu/pub/comer/
>
> There is more about him here, including links to his books Web site:
>
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Comer
>
> ---
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe    Tel: +1 801 581 5254  
> -
> - University of Utah    FAX: +1 801 581 4148  
> -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: be...@math.utah.edu  
> -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233   be...@acm.org  be...@computer.org 
> -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ 
> -
> ---
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>

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   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Ray Jewhurst]

Thank you Johnny. I may ruffle some feathers, but I hate C.  I am mildly
autistic and the way my mind works I actually prefer assembly over high
level languages. I would really like a blueprint to see what I am doing. Is
there commented code for DOS/BATCH? Or even CAPS-11. I would like love to
see a fully commented kernel to see what I am up against.

Thanks
Ray

On Oct 22, 2016 9:11 PM, "Johnny Billquist"  wrote:

While we're at it then... Ray asked for RT-11, since he felt that it was
smaller and simpler than most other operating systems available, and also
because he felt more comfortable with assembler than some other language.

Both those points are missed with any Unix-like OS, even if the intention
is good.

I could just as well offer up RSX, since it actually comes with source
where the comments are still in place, and it's actually written in
assembler for the most part as well. However, it is a much more complex
system than RT-11, and in some ways probably more complex than Unix as
well. So I don't think it might be a good choice if you just want to
understand how an OS works.

In fact, I would probably suggest Ray start with just writing some code to
do some simple things without looking at existing code. The first thing
needed would be to just have something that can load programs from a
device, and run them. This will require some simple device driver, some
simple file system, and a simple command line interpreter. Then you can go
on an expand from there. You'll soon realize things you want to abstract
away, and deal with in a somewhat coherent way.
I wouldn't bother with interrupt system, MMU, or any more fancy stuff to
start with. A plain 64K PDP-11, with the program loader just located in one
end, and then go from there. Do system calls through TRAP, EMT or some
other instruction, and then have a vector installed. If the user program
overwrites that, tough luck.

Johnny


On 2016-10-23 02:45, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:

> Ray Jewhurst  asks today for documented
> operating system source code for the PDP-11.  Besides the Lions' Unix
> v6 code, there is also Doug Comer's Xinu project about which he wrote
> several books.  Current versions are targeted at x86 and ARM CPUs,
>
> http://www.xinu.cs.purdue.edu/
>
> but he still provides code for older systems (PDP-11, SPARC, VAX):
>
> ftp://ftp.cs.purdue.edu/pub/comer/
>
> There is more about him here, including links to his books Web site:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Comer
>
> 
> ---
> - Nelson H. F. BeebeTel: +1 801 581 5254
> -
> - University of UtahFAX: +1 801 581 4148
> -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCBInternet e-mail:
> be...@math.utah.edu  -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233   be...@acm.org
> be...@computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USAURL:
> http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> 
> ---
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>
>
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

While we're at it then... Ray asked for RT-11, since he felt that it was 
smaller and simpler than most other operating systems available, and 
also because he felt more comfortable with assembler than some other 
language.


Both those points are missed with any Unix-like OS, even if the 
intention is good.


I could just as well offer up RSX, since it actually comes with source 
where the comments are still in place, and it's actually written in 
assembler for the most part as well. However, it is a much more complex 
system than RT-11, and in some ways probably more complex than Unix as 
well. So I don't think it might be a good choice if you just want to 
understand how an OS works.


In fact, I would probably suggest Ray start with just writing some code 
to do some simple things without looking at existing code. The first 
thing needed would be to just have something that can load programs from 
a device, and run them. This will require some simple device driver, 
some simple file system, and a simple command line interpreter. Then you 
can go on an expand from there. You'll soon realize things you want to 
abstract away, and deal with in a somewhat coherent way.
I wouldn't bother with interrupt system, MMU, or any more fancy stuff to 
start with. A plain 64K PDP-11, with the program loader just located in 
one end, and then go from there. Do system calls through TRAP, EMT or 
some other instruction, and then have a vector installed. If the user 
program overwrites that, tough luck.


Johnny

On 2016-10-23 02:45, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:

Ray Jewhurst  asks today for documented
operating system source code for the PDP-11.  Besides the Lions' Unix
v6 code, there is also Doug Comer's Xinu project about which he wrote
several books.  Current versions are targeted at x86 and ARM CPUs,

http://www.xinu.cs.purdue.edu/

but he still provides code for older systems (PDP-11, SPARC, VAX):

ftp://ftp.cs.purdue.edu/pub/comer/

There is more about him here, including links to his books Web site:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Comer

---
- Nelson H. F. BeebeTel: +1 801 581 5254  -
- University of UtahFAX: +1 801 581 4148  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCBInternet e-mail: be...@math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233   be...@acm.org  be...@computer.org -
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Nelson H. F. Beebe]

Ray Jewhurst  asks today for documented
operating system source code for the PDP-11.  Besides the Lions' Unix
v6 code, there is also Doug Comer's Xinu project about which he wrote
several books.  Current versions are targeted at x86 and ARM CPUs,

http://www.xinu.cs.purdue.edu/

but he still provides code for older systems (PDP-11, SPARC, VAX):

ftp://ftp.cs.purdue.edu/pub/comer/

There is more about him here, including links to his books Web site:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Comer

---
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- University of UtahFAX: +1 801 581 4148  -
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- 155 S 1400 E RM 233   be...@acm.org  be...@computer.org -
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-10-22 23:46, Jacob Goense wrote:

On 2016-10-22 12:55, Al Kossow wrote:

On 10/22/16 7:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:

I have an idea for project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and
I would like to use RT-11 as an example



Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?


No way.

I vaguely recall lore about 4.x BSD stuff being ported to the PDP-11 ending
with the machine being thrown out of the window. Citations are welcome, or
maybe this should be crossed over to TUHS.


Well, many parts of 4.x BSD did get backported to 2.11BSD. But some 
stuff just will never happen. But I agree with the "no way" comment on 
Minix.



ObSimh:
For the 2012 retro challenge I ported an IRC client to to 2.11 BSD, about
half way I seriously considered adding a window emulator for simh instead.


That must have been a pretty horrible irc client in that case. I've 
written a small irc client for RSX, which takes all about 12K (written 
in BASIC). Inspired by sic, which is only a couple of hundred lines of C 
for Unix.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Al Kossow]

On 10/22/16 2:46 PM, Jacob Goense wrote:
> On 2016-10-22 12:55, Al Kossow wrote:
>> On 10/22/16 7:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:
>>> I have an idea for project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I 
>>> would like to use RT-11 as an example
>>>
>>
>> Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?
> 
> No way.
> 

It ran on an 8088


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Jacob Goense]

On 2016-10-22 12:55, Al Kossow wrote:

On 10/22/16 7:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:
I have an idea for project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and 
I would like to use RT-11 as an example




Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?


No way.

I vaguely recall lore about 4.x BSD stuff being ported to the PDP-11 
ending
with the machine being thrown out of the window. Citations are welcome, 
or

maybe this should be crossed over to TUHS.

ObSimh:
For the 2012 retro challenge I ported an IRC client to to 2.11 BSD, 
about
half way I seriously considered adding a window emulator for simh 
instead.



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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-10-22 20:21, Ray Jewhurst wrote:

I know some of the code is already there but I need comments since I am
not an expert or even a real advanced programmer in assembly. Also, the
beauty of running a simulator is that hardware resources are not as much
of a problem so I more to fill in the gaps for the stuff I am unsure of.
My personal assembly "bible " covers some systems programming but not
all. I will have to share the title of the book when I am near it. It is
available on Amazon. What my plans are is to make a simple OS with a
dual command set using both the RT-11 command line interface and RSX
style DCL. Just something fun to play with


The command line interface is really a very simple and small part of it 
all. First you need to have the actual kernel, which manage memory and 
devices. You need device drivers. And you need an API to access it all.

The you need some CUSPs.

The command line interface is really not even properly a part of the kernel.

Johnny




On Oct 22, 2016 11:58 AM, "Johnny Billquist" > wrote:

On 2016-10-22 16:44, Ray Jewhurst wrote:

I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec but is there a
way to get
the sources for it?  I would like preferably v5.3.  I have an
idea for
project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would like
to use
RT-11 as an example since PDP-11 assembly is the only assembly I
know
and I am already comfortable with RT-11.


Unless I'm confused, RT-11 already comes with some sources, but they
are stripped of comments.

Also, as an OS, it is rather rudimentary. And the code is sometimes
not that easy to follow, since they have used a lot of tricks to
squeeze the most functionality with the minimal amount of memory use.

Johnny

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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-10-22 18:55, Al Kossow wrote:



On 10/22/16 7:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:

I have an idea for project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would 
like to use RT-11 as an example



Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?


I don't think so. I suspect it would be non-trivial, as the memory 
limitations of the PDP-11 require that you sometimes need to design with 
that in mind from the start, or else face serious problems.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-10-22 21:44, Cory Smelosky wrote:

Are the comments in the source on the hidden trailing edge archives?


Don't think so. As far as I know, Tim only have access to the same 
distributions that DEC provided to everyone. The actual, commented 
sources, pretty much didn't leave DEC/Mentec/XX2247 yet.


Johnny




Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 22, 2016, at 11:15, Paul Koning  wrote:



On Oct 22, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst  wrote:

I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec but is there a way to get the 
sources for it?  I would like preferably v5.3.  I have an idea for project to 
teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would like to use RT-11 as an example 
since PDP-11 assembly is the only assembly I know and I am already comfortable 
with RT-11.


I've always liked RT-11 FB, which is an entirely different design than the 
older SJ monitor.  Partly it's because its author was my college mentor, and 
one of the very best programmers I've ever met in over 40 years.

Unfortunately the stripped (no comments) sources omit the literary quotes he liked to 
sprinkle all over the RT-11 sources.  For example "A source of innocent merriment -- 
The Mikado" in the idle loop (the lights pattern code).

   paul


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Clem Cole]

Ray,

I think a much better place to start is John Lion's “A commentary on the
Sixth Edition UNIX Operating System
”
- available for download at: Grog's Lions web page
 or purchase a copy at:  Amazon
- Lions book
   This is
for the PDP-11, will run on simh just fine, all the sources, comments et al
are all there.  The Lion's text is an clean, interesting, and accessible
piece of work.

What is even more cool in my opinion is  we can also point you to the MIT
Undergrad course from the fall of 2014 called: Operating Systems
Engineering [aka MIT's 6.828].

All of docs and code are downloadable to read and work.  The course is a
modern redux on
​the same​
 Lion's book from the late 1970s
​ for 40 years later and fresh​
.The new MIT version is also, as someone else called it "a modern take
on a classic" the URL:   6.828 / Fall 2014


The latest xv6 source is available via
git clone git://pdos.csail.mit.edu/xv6/xv6.git


On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Ray Jewhurst 
wrote:

> I know some of the code is already there but I need comments since I am
> not an expert or even a real advanced programmer in assembly. Also, the
> beauty of running a simulator is that hardware resources are not as much of
> a problem so I more to fill in the gaps for the stuff I am unsure of. My
> personal assembly "bible " covers some systems programming but not all. I
> will have to share the title of the book when I am near it. It is available
> on Amazon. What my plans are is to make a simple OS with a dual command set
> using both the RT-11 command line interface and RSX style DCL. Just
> something fun to play with
>
> On Oct 22, 2016 11:58 AM, "Johnny Billquist"  wrote:
>
>> On 2016-10-22 16:44, Ray Jewhurst wrote:
>>
>>> I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec but is there a way to get
>>> the sources for it?  I would like preferably v5.3.  I have an idea for
>>> project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would like to use
>>> RT-11 as an example since PDP-11 assembly is the only assembly I know
>>> and I am already comfortable with RT-11.
>>>
>>
>> Unless I'm confused, RT-11 already comes with some sources, but they are
>> stripped of comments.
>>
>> Also, as an OS, it is rather rudimentary. And the code is sometimes not
>> that easy to follow, since they have used a lot of tricks to squeeze the
>> most functionality with the minimal amount of memory use.
>>
>> Johnny
>>
>> --
>> Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
>>   ||  on a psychedelic trip
>> email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
>> pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>
>
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Cory Smelosky]

Are the comments in the source on the hidden trailing edge archives?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 22, 2016, at 11:15, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 22, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst  wrote:
>> 
>> I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec but is there a way to get the 
>> sources for it?  I would like preferably v5.3.  I have an idea for project 
>> to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would like to use RT-11 as an 
>> example since PDP-11 assembly is the only assembly I know and I am already 
>> comfortable with RT-11.
> 
> I've always liked RT-11 FB, which is an entirely different design than the 
> older SJ monitor.  Partly it's because its author was my college mentor, and 
> one of the very best programmers I've ever met in over 40 years.
> 
> Unfortunately the stripped (no comments) sources omit the literary quotes he 
> liked to sprinkle all over the RT-11 sources.  For example "A source of 
> innocent merriment -- The Mikado" in the idle loop (the lights pattern code).
> 
>paul
> 
> 
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Ray Jewhurst]

I know some of the code is already there but I need comments since I am not
an expert or even a real advanced programmer in assembly. Also, the beauty
of running a simulator is that hardware resources are not as much of a
problem so I more to fill in the gaps for the stuff I am unsure of. My
personal assembly "bible " covers some systems programming but not all. I
will have to share the title of the book when I am near it. It is available
on Amazon. What my plans are is to make a simple OS with a dual command set
using both the RT-11 command line interface and RSX style DCL. Just
something fun to play with

On Oct 22, 2016 11:58 AM, "Johnny Billquist"  wrote:

> On 2016-10-22 16:44, Ray Jewhurst wrote:
>
>> I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec but is there a way to get
>> the sources for it?  I would like preferably v5.3.  I have an idea for
>> project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would like to use
>> RT-11 as an example since PDP-11 assembly is the only assembly I know
>> and I am already comfortable with RT-11.
>>
>
> Unless I'm confused, RT-11 already comes with some sources, but they are
> stripped of comments.
>
> Also, as an OS, it is rather rudimentary. And the code is sometimes not
> that easy to follow, since they have used a lot of tricks to squeeze the
> most functionality with the minimal amount of memory use.
>
> Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
>   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> ___
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> Simh@trailing-edge.com
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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 22, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst  wrote:
> 
> I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec but is there a way to get the 
> sources for it?  I would like preferably v5.3.  I have an idea for project to 
> teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would like to use RT-11 as an 
> example since PDP-11 assembly is the only assembly I know and I am already 
> comfortable with RT-11.

I've always liked RT-11 FB, which is an entirely different design than the 
older SJ monitor.  Partly it's because its author was my college mentor, and 
one of the very best programmers I've ever met in over 40 years.

Unfortunately the stripped (no comments) sources omit the literary quotes he 
liked to sprinkle all over the RT-11 sources.  For example "A source of 
innocent merriment -- The Mikado" in the idle loop (the lights pattern code).

paul


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Al Kossow]

On 10/22/16 7:44 AM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:
> I have an idea for project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would 
> like to use RT-11 as an example
>

Did anyone ever port MINIX to the PDP-11?


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Re: [Simh] RT-11 source

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-10-22 16:44, Ray Jewhurst wrote:

I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec but is there a way to get
the sources for it?  I would like preferably v5.3.  I have an idea for
project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would like to use
RT-11 as an example since PDP-11 assembly is the only assembly I know
and I am already comfortable with RT-11.


Unless I'm confused, RT-11 already comes with some sources, but they are 
stripped of comments.


Also, as an OS, it is rather rudimentary. And the code is sometimes not 
that easy to follow, since they have used a lot of tricks to squeeze the 
most functionality with the minimal amount of memory use.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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[Simh] RT-11 source

[Ray Jewhurst]

I know that RT-11 is under license from Mentec but is there a way to get
the sources for it?  I would like preferably v5.3.  I have an idea for
project to teach my self rudimentary OS design and I would like to use
RT-11 as an example since PDP-11 assembly is the only assembly I know and I
am already comfortable with RT-11.

Thanks

Ray
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