Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38

[Johnny Billquist]

It's not really a bug. It's a limitation. A bit unfortunate, but a design 
choice made by the proframmer who wrote the firmware.

  Johnny 


khandy21yo <khandy2...@gmail.com> skrev: (26 januari 2018 03:35:24 CET)
>The MicroVAX 3100 had a bug in the boot Rom that limited it to a 1.06?
>Disk. I don't know if it also occurred on other systems.
>
>
>Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
> Original message From: Larry Baker <ba...@usgs.gov>
>Date: 1/25/18  7:17 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: heal...@avanthar.com Cc: SIMH
><simh@trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168,
>Issue 38 
>We ran into this on a real VAX when we added a 20GB SCSI disk, as I
>recall.  Either VAX/VMS or the hardware (I think it was VAX/VMS) only
>looks at the low-order 24 bits of the disk size.  So, our 20GB disk was
>viewed as a 3+GB drive on the VAX.  Alpha/VMS has no problem handling
>larger drives.  I think I've used 100GB drives on an Alpha.  I know I
>have a 72GB and a 50GB drive on our Alpha now.
>
>Larry Baker
>US Geological Survey
>650-329-5608
>ba...@usgs.gov
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 25 Jan 2018, at 6:04:06 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
>Message: 3
>Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:01:41 -0800
>From: Zane Healy <heal...@avanthar.com>
>To: Dennis Boone <d...@msu.edu>
>Cc: simh <simh@trailing-edge.com>
>Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?
>Message-ID: <fb0095e0-4ec6-46ca-aeeb-52eee3152...@avanthar.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>On Jan 25, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Dennis Boone <d...@msu.edu> wrote:
>
>If you're venturing into unix technology, it's possible to mount nfs
>shares on the VMS machines.  Then you can use BACKUP to write save sets
>onto the nfs share.  There seems to be some care needed with ADF
>metadata.  Multinet seems to write this to a hidden file or
>subdirectory; not sure what UCX/TCPIP do.
>
>I actually looked into this option around 2008 (for the same Alpha).
> If I remember correctly I ran into a problem on the VMS side of the
>file size limit (I have the same disk size now I had in 2008).  This
>can work, but you have to break larger disks up into chunks.  I’m
>hoping to avoid that, with the solution I’m looking at.
>
>Zane

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Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38

[Johnny Billquist]

That is not solving the sctual problem.
And it's also unrelated to the 24 bit size for block numbers in VMS.

The boot issue is specific to some 3100 models and has to do with the scsi 
commands the boot prom uses. The driver in the boot prom uses group 0 commands, 
which only have a 21 bit field for block number. This leads to a 1G limit. This 
is only neede for booting and it actually only means that whatever is involved 
in the boot phase needs to be in the first 1G of the disk. If you can ensure 
that, then there is no problem having a larger disk even for booting. Unix with 
its partitioning of the disk can easily guarantee this for example. Once the 
system have booted the device driver in the boot prom is not used anyway so 
then the limit does not apply anymore.

The second issue is the 24 bit block number. This is a parameter setup when the 
file system is initialized and is the size of retrieval pointers. ODS1 pretty 
much only supports 24 bit retrieval pointers, but ODS2 can also have 32 bit 
retrieval pointers. But it has to be decided at file system initialization, and 
cannot be changed afterwards.

  Johnny 


Bob Eager <r...@tavi.co.uk> skrev: (26 januari 2018 09:49:46 CET)
>I know I've hacked larger SCSI disks in the past, for the 3100. I made
>them report a smaller size so that they would boot.
>
>On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:35:24 -0700
>khandy21yo <khandy2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The MicroVAX 3100 had a bug in the boot Rom that limited it to a
>> 1.06? Disk. I don't know if it also occurred on other systems.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
>>  Original message From: Larry Baker <ba...@usgs.gov>
>> Date: 1/25/18  7:17 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: heal...@avanthar.com Cc: SIMH
>> <simh@trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168,
>> Issue 38 We ran into this on a real VAX when we added a 20GB SCSI
>> disk, as I recall.  Either VAX/VMS or the hardware (I think it was
>> VAX/VMS) only looks at the low-order 24 bits of the disk size.  So,
>> our 20GB disk was viewed as a 3+GB drive on the VAX.  Alpha/VMS has
>> no problem handling larger drives.  I think I've used 100GB drives on
>> an Alpha.  I know I have a 72GB and a 50GB drive on our Alpha now.
>> 
>> Larry Baker
>> US Geological Survey
>> 650-329-5608
>> ba...@usgs.gov
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 25 Jan 2018, at 6:04:06 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:01:41 -0800
>> From: Zane Healy <heal...@avanthar.com>
>> To: Dennis Boone <d...@msu.edu>
>> Cc: simh <simh@trailing-edge.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?
>> Message-ID: <fb0095e0-4ec6-46ca-aeeb-52eee3152...@avanthar.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 25, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Dennis Boone <d...@msu.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> If you're venturing into unix technology, it's possible to mount nfs
>> shares on the VMS machines.  Then you can use BACKUP to write save
>> sets onto the nfs share.  There seems to be some care needed with ADF
>> metadata.  Multinet seems to write this to a hidden file or
>> subdirectory; not sure what UCX/TCPIP do.
>> 
>> I actually looked into this option around 2008 (for the same Alpha).
>>  If I remember correctly I ran into a problem on the VMS side of the
>> file size limit (I have the same disk size now I had in 2008).  This
>> can work, but you have to break larger disks up into chunks.  I?m
>> hoping to avoid that, with the solution I?m looking at.
>> 
>> Zane
>> 
>
>___
>Simh mailing list
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Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38

[Bob Eager]

I know I've hacked larger SCSI disks in the past, for the 3100. I made
them report a smaller size so that they would boot.

On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:35:24 -0700
khandy21yo <khandy2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The MicroVAX 3100 had a bug in the boot Rom that limited it to a
> 1.06? Disk. I don't know if it also occurred on other systems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
>  Original message From: Larry Baker <ba...@usgs.gov>
> Date: 1/25/18  7:17 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: heal...@avanthar.com Cc: SIMH
> <simh@trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168,
> Issue 38 We ran into this on a real VAX when we added a 20GB SCSI
> disk, as I recall.  Either VAX/VMS or the hardware (I think it was
> VAX/VMS) only looks at the low-order 24 bits of the disk size.  So,
> our 20GB disk was viewed as a 3+GB drive on the VAX.  Alpha/VMS has
> no problem handling larger drives.  I think I've used 100GB drives on
> an Alpha.  I know I have a 72GB and a 50GB drive on our Alpha now.
> 
> Larry Baker
> US Geological Survey
> 650-329-5608
> ba...@usgs.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 25 Jan 2018, at 6:04:06 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:01:41 -0800
> From: Zane Healy <heal...@avanthar.com>
> To: Dennis Boone <d...@msu.edu>
> Cc: simh <simh@trailing-edge.com>
> Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?
> Message-ID: <fb0095e0-4ec6-46ca-aeeb-52eee3152...@avanthar.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> 
> On Jan 25, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Dennis Boone <d...@msu.edu> wrote:
> 
> If you're venturing into unix technology, it's possible to mount nfs
> shares on the VMS machines.  Then you can use BACKUP to write save
> sets onto the nfs share.  There seems to be some care needed with ADF
> metadata.  Multinet seems to write this to a hidden file or
> subdirectory; not sure what UCX/TCPIP do.
> 
> I actually looked into this option around 2008 (for the same Alpha).
>  If I remember correctly I ran into a problem on the VMS side of the
> file size limit (I have the same disk size now I had in 2008).  This
> can work, but you have to break larger disks up into chunks.  I?m
> hoping to avoid that, with the solution I?m looking at.
> 
> Zane
> 

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Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38

[khandy21yo]

The MicroVAX 3100 had a bug in the boot Rom that limited it to a 1.06? Disk. I 
don't know if it also occurred on other systems.


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: Larry Baker <ba...@usgs.gov> Date: 
1/25/18  7:17 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: heal...@avanthar.com Cc: SIMH 
<simh@trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38 
We ran into this on a real VAX when we added a 20GB SCSI disk, as I recall.  
Either VAX/VMS or the hardware (I think it was VAX/VMS) only looks at the 
low-order 24 bits of the disk size.  So, our 20GB disk was viewed as a 3+GB 
drive on the VAX.  Alpha/VMS has no problem handling larger drives.  I think 
I've used 100GB drives on an Alpha.  I know I have a 72GB and a 50GB drive on 
our Alpha now.

Larry Baker
US Geological Survey
650-329-5608
ba...@usgs.gov






On 25 Jan 2018, at 6:04:06 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:01:41 -0800
From: Zane Healy <heal...@avanthar.com>
To: Dennis Boone <d...@msu.edu>
Cc: simh <simh@trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?
Message-ID: <fb0095e0-4ec6-46ca-aeeb-52eee3152...@avanthar.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8


On Jan 25, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Dennis Boone <d...@msu.edu> wrote:

If you're venturing into unix technology, it's possible to mount nfs
shares on the VMS machines.  Then you can use BACKUP to write save sets
onto the nfs share.  There seems to be some care needed with ADF
metadata.  Multinet seems to write this to a hidden file or
subdirectory; not sure what UCX/TCPIP do.

I actually looked into this option around 2008 (for the same Alpha).  If I 
remember correctly I ran into a problem on the VMS side of the file size limit 
(I have the same disk size now I had in 2008).  This can work, but you have to 
break larger disks up into chunks.  I’m hoping to avoid that, with the solution 
I’m looking at.

Zane

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Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38

[Larry Baker]

We ran into this on a real VAX when we added a 20GB SCSI disk, as I recall.  
Either VAX/VMS or the hardware (I think it was VAX/VMS) only looks at the 
low-order 24 bits of the disk size.  So, our 20GB disk was viewed as a 3+GB 
drive on the VAX.  Alpha/VMS has no problem handling larger drives.  I think 
I've used 100GB drives on an Alpha.  I know I have a 72GB and a 50GB drive on 
our Alpha now.

Larry Baker
US Geological Survey
650-329-5608
ba...@usgs.gov



> On 25 Jan 2018, at 6:04:06 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:01:41 -0800
> From: Zane Healy >
> To: Dennis Boone >
> Cc: simh >
> Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?
> Message-ID:  >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Dennis Boone > > wrote:
>> 
>> If you're venturing into unix technology, it's possible to mount nfs
>> shares on the VMS machines.  Then you can use BACKUP to write save sets
>> onto the nfs share.  There seems to be some care needed with ADF
>> metadata.  Multinet seems to write this to a hidden file or
>> subdirectory; not sure what UCX/TCPIP do.
> 
> I actually looked into this option around 2008 (for the same Alpha).  If I 
> remember correctly I ran into a problem on the VMS side of the file size 
> limit (I have the same disk size now I had in 2008).  This can work, but you 
> have to break larger disks up into chunks.  I’m hoping to avoid that, with 
> the solution I’m looking at.
> 
> Zane



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