Re: Time Pedantry (was Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?)
On Thu, 2010-04-01 at 16:56 +1100, Daniel Pittman wrote: ...but the real question is if we love or hate the GMT/UTC difference, and 23:59:61? Daniel Also, do we hate the earthquake that changed the length of the day for messing with our time-keeping? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100302084522.htm (And, finally, for anyone who really wants to despair at the whole thing, I give you The Long, Painful History of Time, which is the best write-up I know of about the engineering difficulties of the topic: http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html ) None of this would be a problem if we'd just switch to decimal time in a single timezone and call it a day. -- Pete -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Why so snooty? Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?
On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:56:41 +1100 Nick Andrew n...@nick-andrew.net wrote: On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 03:27:23PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: Not sure what Linux has to do with this -- there's far more going on (with dates and times especially) in a complex stack of software than just the OS. Consider the amount of legacy software and multi-system integration involved in a bank's computing environment. I see it more like software superstition. Bad things might happen - we don't know, we won't (or can't) test it, and we won't (or can't) fix it. Sorry dudes, but this just sounds like Open Source snootiness from the small end of town. I want my bank to run on logic, not voodoo. Me too. And think of all the **lovely** banking law cases that would come out if the logic is just a ltle bit wrong! I really think the CBA should consider it a public duty to contribute to the Australian jurisprudence on banking law. Cheers, Alan Nick. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Why so snooty? Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?
quote who=Nick Andrew On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 03:27:23PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: Not sure what Linux has to do with this -- there's far more going on (with dates and times especially) in a complex stack of software than just the OS. Consider the amount of legacy software and multi-system integration involved in a bank's computing environment. I see it more like software superstition. Bad things might happen - we don't know, we won't (or can't) test it, and we won't (or can't) fix it. Sorry dudes, but this just sounds like Open Source snootiness from the small end of town. I want my bank to run on logic, not voodoo. ... and you say this with broad knowledge of the many and varied systems in place? There may just be an entirely sensible reason why one or more pieces of the system, at this point in its evolution, requires hand-holding or no external access during a DST changeover. Whee, Linux! is not an answer if it's an application problem - and that's being polite. Whee, Linux! might not be a useful answer for plenty of other reasons. - Jeff -- The Great Australian Internet Blackout http://www.internetblackout.com.au/ Anyway - I need something more James Bond than Banana Man, if you know what I mean... - Tom Gilbert -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] Re: Time Pedantry
Peter Hardy pe...@hardy.dropbear.id.au writes: On Thu, 2010-04-01 at 16:56 +1100, Daniel Pittman wrote: ...but the real question is if we love or hate the GMT/UTC difference, and 23:59:61? Also, do we hate the earthquake that changed the length of the day for messing with our time-keeping? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100302084522.htm [...] None of this would be a problem if we'd just switch to decimal time in a single timezone and call it a day. Actually, we would still have to deal with the changing length of the day, and with the increasing difference between our stellar and earth-based times. :) Daniel -- ✣ Daniel Pittman✉ dan...@rimspace.net☎ +61 401 155 707 ♽ made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Why so snooty? Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?
On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 05:47:37PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Nick Andrew On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 03:27:23PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: Not sure what Linux has to do with this -- there's far more going on (with dates and times especially) in a complex stack of software than just the OS. Consider the amount of legacy software and multi-system integration involved in a bank's computing environment. I see it more like software superstition. Bad things might happen - we don't know, we won't (or can't) test it, and we won't (or can't) fix it. Sorry dudes, but this just sounds like Open Source snootiness from the small end of town. I want my bank to run on logic, not voodoo. ... and you say this with broad knowledge of the many and varied systems in place? There may just be an entirely sensible reason why one or more pieces of the system, at this point in its evolution, requires hand-holding or no external access during a DST changeover. The bank either knows that their system won't work during the DST changeover, or they suspect that it won't work. I suspect it's the latter, but either situation is a worry. DST changeover is predictable. Well, it's predictable that it will happen at some time, but the changeover date itself varies according to the whim of politicians. The bank should have expected DST, and built their systems to cope when it changes. On the other hand, if they don't know that something will break and just suspect it, that's a worry because the bank should understand very deeply how their systems work, to achieve maximum reliability. On the third hand, hearing about how they can't manage a simple DNS change, getting DST right is probably the least of their worries. Whee, Linux! is not an answer if it's an application problem - and that's being polite. Whee, Linux! might not be a useful answer for plenty of other reasons. Yep, and I never said it was. Nick. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: Time Pedantry
On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 06:25:46PM +1100, Daniel Pittman wrote: None of this would be a problem if we'd just switch to decimal time in a single timezone and call it a day. Actually, we would still have to deal with the changing length of the day, and with the increasing difference between our stellar and earth-based times. :) Indeed. The Earth's rotational period does vary slightly (effect of earthquakes notwithstanding). One reason time is hard to deal with sensibly is our insistence on synchronising it to the mean solar day. Nick. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Surveillance camera in car
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 08:53:30PM +1100, Jim Donovan wrote: Having been the target of a road-rage attack recently (driver behind chucked a rock at me) I can see the value of having front and rear cameras recording. They're actually pretty affordable these days (see http://www.etronixmart.com/vosonic-gv6330-vehicle-safeguard-night-vision-car-video-camera-p-516.html?osCsid=a075cabb7bdc23a203f9e79fbc0dcc78 ). However I was thinking of something more durable: [...] The TS-7250 looks suitable (http://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?product=TS-7250) but the only cameras I've found have composite video output e.g. Jaycar's QC3491. Interesting idea. You could get some tips from Jon Oxer at http://www.geekmyride.org/ Nick. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Why so snooty? Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?
Nick Andrew wrote: On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 05:47:37PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Nick Andrew On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 03:27:23PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: Not sure what Linux has to do with this -- there's far more going on (with dates and times especially) in a complex stack of software than just the OS. Consider the amount of legacy software and multi-system integration involved in a bank's computing environment. I see it more like software superstition. Bad things might happen - we don't know, we won't (or can't) test it, and we won't (or can't) fix it. Sorry dudes, but this just sounds like Open Source snootiness from the small end of town. I want my bank to run on logic, not voodoo. ... and you say this with broad knowledge of the many and varied systems in place? There may just be an entirely sensible reason why one or more pieces of the system, at this point in its evolution, requires hand-holding or no external access during a DST changeover. The bank either knows that their system won't work during the DST changeover, or they suspect that it won't work. I suspect it's the latter, but either situation is a worry. Its called unknown unknowns. The bank may well be pretty sure that nothing will go wrong but given the cost/benefit ratio its prudent not to take the chance that there is one line of code somewhere or another in the many tens of millions they have that will freak out when the clock goes backwards. If it zeros out everybodys account balances due to an incorrect interest calculation wrapping or something then even if they fix it by 10:00AM they are going to be swamped by a storm of hate the likes of which you can only dream. DST changeover is predictable. Well, it's predictable that it will happen at some time, but the changeover date itself varies according to the whim of politicians. The bank should have expected DST, and built their systems to cope when it changes. I presume they have, they handle it by turning things off for an hour in the middle of the night, no great loss. Also the only information we have is on netbank which is perhaps the crappiest section of the system. Its links to the legacy systems are fragile at best and having people stick transactions in during the time transition could well cause weirdness. On the other hand, if they don't know that something will break and just suspect it, that's a worry because the bank should understand very deeply how their systems work, to achieve maximum reliability. I presume they do, but again its called unknown unknowns. They don't know what they don't know, and given the cost of failure its cheap not to risk it. On the third hand, hearing about how they can't manage a simple DNS change, getting DST right is probably the least of their worries. It wasn't a DNS change, My understanding is coming 3rd hand. A data centre went down. They have some kind of geoIP+ load balancer + user stickyness system in place that is meant to keep users generally accessing sites close to them and also sticking to them. Initially after the failure their own DNS servers were sending users to the dead data centre. Once they had fixed that they had problems with ISP's caching the incorrect DNS and spreading it over the rest of their users or something to that effect. Also they had a problem that the failover systems they had in place sent all the traffic to one other centre and caused it to become overloaded leading to 10 minute pageloads. I understand that the problem was brought about by some contractors cutting cables in a cable duct that was running in a lift shaft or something along those lines. It was a proper cut of a phat cable at that. Whee, Linux! is not an answer if it's an application problem - and that's being polite. Whee, Linux! might not be a useful answer for plenty of other reasons. Yep, and I never said it was. Nick. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: Time Pedantry
Nick Andrew wrote: Indeed. The Earth's rotational period does vary slightly (effect of earthquakes notwithstanding). One reason time is hard to deal with sensibly is our insistence on synchronising it to the mean solar day. // off topic Easter Time time ramblings Isaac Asimov figured it out years ago. From memory ... Create a new calendar with 52 weeks of 7 days = 364 days. Add one extra day, called World Day, at the end - 365 days. World Day does not have a day of the week. In this way, every date falls on the same day of the week in every year. For leaps years, add an extra Leap day after World Day. It too has no day of the week. To make things precise, every 100 years, there is no Leap Day, but every 400 years there is. That pretty well matches up the solar year to the earth's rotation. Easter Sunday would still be a lunar-based nightmare. Either that or redefine it to fall on the same date always, or perhaps just fall away completely. I don't recall Asimov dealing with the tetchy problem of daylight time. As for rejigging the months? I leave that as as exercise. cheers rickw -- _ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Hofstadter's Law. It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Why so snooty? Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?
Jake Anderson wrote: The bank may well be pretty sure that nothing will go wrong but given the cost/benefit ratio its prudent not to take the chance that there is one line of code somewhere or another in the many tens of millions they have that will freak out when the clock goes backwards. What about ATMs? Will they be down for the count? If not, and the main systems are down, they must queue up transactions. The timestamps on those transactions will have to be handled correctly when the queue is processed. Including transactions during the hour the leaps back. The same can be said about bank-to-bank and bank-to-international transactions. It seems like a problem they must already have to deal with. Transactions world wide into and out of Australia do not stop for an hour at 2:00 AM Easter Sunday, do they? Anyone working in the banking sector out there? cheers rickw -- _ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Hofstadter's Law. It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
As of March, we have 37 financial members. This represents a decline from 51 members twelve months ago. I suspect that this is merely due to inadequate promotion on our part. A challenge we currently face is presenting a good reason to become a member. Other than voting rights and a warm and fuzzy feeling, the benefit is admittedly minimal. I don't know if this is the place to raise this, but as a new member I can think of two things that might help: 1. Make it possible to obtain and renew membership online -- or even by snailmail -- rather than having to physically attend a meeting (right now, for instance, I'm not a member because I don't get into town when the meetings are on). 2. Take advantage of the increasing interest in Linux on the desktop by setting up an Applications SIG and/or focussing on applications at some events. I'm a great fan of Linux and a full-time user, and I want it to succeed as much as anyone, but my interest in programming is virtually nil. As a home user there's no need for me to know about security, I really don't want to build or fix my own computer, and I spent the first five years of my career in computing getting as far away from the command line as possible. So most of the talks and events scheduled by SLUG hold no interest for me. What would I like to see? For starters: * New and upgraded applications demonstrated and discussed * Distros compared and evaluated * Using Linux with various peripherals -- scanners, printers, tablets, multiple screens * Bash programming techniques -- but keeping it simple * OpenOffice techniques and macros * GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus techniques * Occasional discussions of games and multimedia software * Giveaways? Door prizes of distro DVDs? Free or discounted technical assistance to members? SLUG wallpapers and themes? I don't want to alienate the technical gurus, but I suspect that over the next five years or so there will be increasing numbers of people in the same situation that I am. So if you are looking for ways to promote SLUG, that's my two cents' worth. Right now it all seems very technical and insular. Jon. -- --- Australia's leading Linux applications trainer. http://www.learnubuntu.com.au -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
jon wrote:
As of March, we have 37 financial members. This represents a decline
from 51 members twelve months ago. I suspect that this is merely due
to inadequate promotion on our part. A challenge we currently face is
presenting a good reason to become a member. Other than voting rights
and a warm and fuzzy feeling, the benefit is admittedly minimal.
I don't know if this is the place to raise this, but as a new member I
can think of two things that might help:
1. Make it possible to obtain and renew membership online -- or even
by snailmail -- rather than having to physically attend a meeting
(right now, for instance, I'm not a member because I don't get into
town when the meetings are on).
Snip
Jon.
In this area I must agree with Jon, I have been a financial member of
SLUG from the day we decided to have a financial membership and have
been a regular attender until a relatively recently when SLUG moved
about a bit. (I like the new venue by the way) I would love to be able
to stay a financial member and being able to pay my annual subs online
would be great as I was unable to make the AGM.
Also, SLUG should consider producing a magazine for members filled with
articles from members including tutorials, reviews of open source
software and code snippets, updates on what members are working on and
some basics. It could become a benefit of membership. It could be
emailed as a pdf to financial members at their slug.org.au email address.
{note to Jon: forget Scribus, it still crashes regularly. I have been
trying to use the stable version to produce a magazine I write for
another computer club and had to go back to using OOo as Scribus crashed
almost every time I tried to use the story editor to change the text a
little. It needs a lot more development to be usable.}
Heracles
PS. WHo is the treasurer now and can I organise to pay my subs online
please?
--
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Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 08:14:03AM +1100, jon wrote: I don't know if this is the place to raise this, but as a new member I can think of two things that might help: It's good. It's been weighing on my mind too. 1. Make it possible to obtain and renew membership online -- or even by snailmail -- rather than having to physically attend a meeting (right now, for instance, I'm not a member because I don't get into town when the meetings are on). Absolutely. I think membership should be completely automated, online. No handling of cash, no hand-writing receipts. It's an efficiency thing, and it's often more convenient to pay money online. 2. Take advantage of the increasing interest in Linux on the desktop by setting up an Applications SIG and/or focussing on applications at some events. Sure. My 2c: I think that the first duty of a LUG is to promote use of Linux. So I'd like to see events for interested non-users, installfests and other promotional activities. --- Australia's leading Linux applications trainer. http://www.learnubuntu.com.au Plus mutually beneficial co-operation with related organisations. Nick. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] President's Report for 2010 AGM
Sydney Linux Users Group (SLUG) Incorporated 2010 Annual General Meeting === Friday 26th March 2010 at Google Australia, Pyrmont President's Report 2009-2010 by Sridhar Dhanapalan Diversification and change have been the themes of the 2009-2010 period. Of particular note are our move to a new venue (Google Australia in Pyrmont) and the introduction of birds of a feather (BoF) sessions to our monthly meetings. = Statistics = As of March, we have 37 financial members. This represents a decline from 51 members twelve months ago. I suspect that this is merely due to inadequate promotion on our part. A challenge we currently face is presenting a good reason to become a member. Other than voting rights and a warm and fuzzy feeling, the benefit is admittedly minimal. Nevertheless, we are cash positive: $607.48. The Treasurer's Report will provide insight into that figure. We have not been taking head counts at our meetings, but it seems clear that we have been getting more people on average to our meetings since our move to Google and our expansion of format. Mailing lists (lists.slug.org.au) continue to be a major part of SLUG. Compared to figures from a year ago (in brackets), the numbers of subscribers have been increasing: announce = 402 (332) slug = 778 (732) activities = 210 (200) slug-chat = 227 (218) coders = 172 (155) Also important is the #slug IRC channel on Freenode. At the time of writing, there are 38 users on the channel. = Venue Change = The most significant change has been our shift in venue to Google Australia in Pyrmont. This has proven to be very fortuitous for us. A larger and better equipped venue has provided us with greater opportunities than ever before. I'd like to express our gratitude to Atlassian for their hospitality in hosting us from 2007 to 2009. = Meetings = SLUG's long-standing bug regarding video recordings of talks can now be addressed more readily, through the professional audio-visual facilities available to us. This has also enabled us to deliver more effective presentations. Patrick Elliott-Brennan and Tim Ansell have been instrumental in bringing this all together. Our intermission is now marked by a fine selection of food and refreshments, thanks to the catering service provided by our hosts. Dinners have been simplified to a bulk-order of pizza. We have more people stay after the meeting to partake in dinner and drinks afterwards, improving the social aspect of SLUG. = Birds of a Feather sessions (BoFs) = After an initial few months of adjustment to our new venue, we embarked on an effort to expand into the other meeting areas made available to us. We identified an increasing splintering of the free and open source (FLOSS) community over time into disparate groups. To address this, we began offering areas alongside the main SLUG talks for other similar-minded groups to run their own get-togethers. The hope has been to use the scale and maturity of SLUG to assist smaller and less established groups. This should in turn promote cross-pollination. BoFs we have run include: * One Laptop per Child, run by Mitchell Seaton * OpenAustralia, run by Henare Degan * Linux Multimedia, run by Patrick Elliott-Brennan * Django You may have noticed that running an alternative session alongside a talk is not new: we've been running SLUGlets for years. All that we have done is take that formula and expand it into multiple sessions running in parallel. I want to thank Melissa Draper and Patrick Elliott-Brennan for running the SLUGlets sessions in the past year. = Presentations = Presentations at SLUG have included: March (AGM): Lindsay Holmwood April: Matthew Landauer; Andrew Boag May: James Purser; Jeff Waugh June: Paul Wayper (x2) July: Tom Worthington; Rob Collins August: Mitchell Seaton; Patrick Elliott-Brennan September: Marc Titmuss; Rob Collins October: Scott Hollier; Roger Salisbury November: Marc Englaro (x2) December: (no meeting, as usual) January: lightning talks by various speakers February: Tim Ansell (x2) Our gratitude goes to all of our speakers. Special thanks goes to Rob Collins, who has stepped in twice at very short notice to fill gaps in our schedule. = Passings = Sadly, the year has seen the passings of two long-time SLUG contributors. In May we lost Anthony Rumble, a Linux contributor and business ground-breaker. Anthony, I am told, was amongst the original SLUG attendees back in the early 1990s. The SLUG community was kind enough to donate $180 in Anthony's memory to Epilepsy Action, and SLUG increased that amount to $300. Grant Parnell, a past president of SLUG, left us on new year's day. Like Anthony, Grant's patronage of SLUG has been prolific. Both Anthony and Grant were well known in the community and will be
Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Heracles herac...@iprimus.com.au wrote: PS. WHo is the treasurer now and can I organise to pay my subs online please? http://slug.org.au/contacts.html Neil Davenport treasu...@slug.org.au -- Harrison Conlin -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:38:35 +1100
Heracles herac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
SNIP
{note to Jon: forget Scribus, it still crashes regularly. I have been
trying to use the stable version to produce a magazine I write for
another computer club and had to go back to using OOo as Scribus
crashed almost every time I tried to use the story editor to change
the text a little. It needs a lot more development to be usable.}
What version of Scribus are you using? I have used it a fair amount,
but always the ScribusNG package. I have never had any problem with it
at all. First on Debian Lenny, recently on Debian Squeeze. A quick look
at the Ubuntu forums didn't turn up any recent complaints about crashes.
Also, the Scribus website has just announced a bug-fix version 1.3.6.
Since LyX/LaTeX have usually been sufficient for my publishing
needs, I have never been a heavy user of it, so maybe I just haven't hit
the wall. Still, seems surprising to me since I have had very good
results when I have used it.
Cheers,
Alan
Heracles
PS. WHo is the treasurer now and can I organise to pay my subs online
please?
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
--
Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: 04 2748 6206
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
Alan L Tyree wrote:
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:38:35 +1100
Heracles herac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
SNIP
{note to Jon: forget Scribus, it still crashes regularly. I have been
trying to use the stable version to produce a magazine I write for
another computer club and had to go back to using OOo as Scribus
crashed almost every time I tried to use the story editor to change
the text a little. It needs a lot more development to be usable.}
What version of Scribus are you using? I have used it a fair amount,
but always the ScribusNG package. I have never had any problem with it
at all. First on Debian Lenny, recently on Debian Squeeze. A quick look
at the Ubuntu forums didn't turn up any recent complaints about crashes.
Also, the Scribus website has just announced a bug-fix version 1.3.6.
Since LyX/LaTeX have usually been sufficient for my publishing
needs, I have never been a heavy user of it, so maybe I just haven't hit
the wall. Still, seems surprising to me since I have had very good
results when I have used it.
Cheers,
Alan
Hi Alan,
Version is 1.3.3.14(Stable)
I'll upgrade to 1.3.6 and see if that helps. My magazine is 24 pages, so
it should not be a problem for even a simple DTP.
Thanks
Heracles
--
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Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
jon wrote: As of March, we have 37 financial members. This represents a decline from 51 members twelve months ago. I suspect that this is merely due to inadequate promotion on our part. A challenge we currently face is presenting a good reason to become a member. Other than voting rights and a warm and fuzzy feeling, the benefit is admittedly minimal. I don't know if this is the place to raise this, but as a new member I can think of two things that might help: 1. Make it possible to obtain and renew membership online -- or even by snailmail -- rather than having to physically attend a meeting (right now, for instance, I'm not a member because I don't get into town when the meetings are on). It's like donating to FOSS developers - you don't have to do it, but equally the contributors didn't have to put their time in to coding. It's a way of paying back to the community - *especially* for non-coders. Having said that, I'm not a member because I don't often go to meetings, so having an on-line payment option would definitely make it more likely that I would contribute by becoming a paid-up member. What would I like to see? For starters: * New and upgraded applications demonstrated and discussed I'm definitely a fan of the idea of workshopping applications - for instance I've just given up on Linux video editors and returned to my Macintosh. I would rather pay SLUG membership (including workshopping applications like Kdenlive), than pay Apple for Final Cut. As a side benefit, I imagine workshops like that would become de-facto beta testing fests. * Distros compared and evaluated * Using Linux with various peripherals -- scanners, printers, tablets, multiple screens * Bash programming techniques -- but keeping it simple * OpenOffice techniques and macros * GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus techniques * Occasional discussions of games and multimedia software * Giveaways? Door prizes of distro DVDs? Free or discounted technical assistance to members? SLUG wallpapers and themes? I don't want to alienate the technical gurus, but I suspect that over the next five years or so there will be increasing numbers of people in the same situation that I am. So if you are looking for ways to promote SLUG, that's my two cents' worth. Right now it all seems very technical and insular. I think the technical side is really important. It's the insular that's potentially a problem. Jon. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:49:41 +1100
Heracles herac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
Alan L Tyree wrote:
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:38:35 +1100
Heracles herac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
SNIP
{note to Jon: forget Scribus, it still crashes regularly. I have
been trying to use the stable version to produce a magazine I
write for another computer club and had to go back to using OOo as
Scribus crashed almost every time I tried to use the story editor
to change the text a little. It needs a lot more development to be
usable.}
What version of Scribus are you using? I have used it a fair amount,
but always the ScribusNG package. I have never had any problem with
it at all. First on Debian Lenny, recently on Debian Squeeze. A
quick look at the Ubuntu forums didn't turn up any recent
complaints about crashes.
Also, the Scribus website has just announced a bug-fix version
1.3.6.
Since LyX/LaTeX have usually been sufficient for my publishing
needs, I have never been a heavy user of it, so maybe I just
haven't hit the wall. Still, seems surprising to me since I have
had very good results when I have used it.
Cheers,
Alan
Hi Alan,
Version is 1.3.3.14(Stable)
I'll upgrade to 1.3.6 and see if that helps. My magazine is 24 pages,
so it should not be a problem for even a simple DTP.
I don't know what version I was using on Lenny. The Squeeze version is
1.3.5 and it has always behaved -- but as I said, I have never pushed
it hard, just a few pages. If it can't handle 24 pages then something
is seriously wrong!
Thanks
Heracles
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Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:14:03 +1100 jon jonjer...@optusnet.com.au wrote: 1. Make it possible to obtain and renew membership online Yes, I'd become a member if I could do it online or via snail mail. 2. Take advantage of the increasing interest in Linux on the desktop by setting up an Applications SIG and/or focussing on applications at some events. ... So most of the talks and events scheduled by SLUG hold no interest for me. Here! Here! I totally agree, the majority of list of 2009 presented talks appeared to be waaay too techy to entice me to come along and SLUGlets talks appear to be too short to offer anything substantial to take away use. I raised this same issue about a year ago (iirc), I mentioned that LUV's plans for Software Freedom Day http://softwarefreedomday.org/melb looked like a very appealing program of talks and workshops that I'd be really keen to see something like that organised on a regular basis, at SLUG-meets, for us Sydney-siders. * New and upgraded applications demonstrated and discussed * Distros compared and evaluated * Using Linux with various peripherals -- scanners, printers, tablets, multiple screens * Bash programming techniques -- but keeping it simple * OpenOffice techniques and macros * GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus techniques In addition to the above, (a very good list Jon!) I'd also like to see basic/beginning Python, basic/beginning Rails/Ruby, troubleshooting problems; i.e. using run levels, wireless setup etc... cheers, Meryl -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?
I have to agree with Daniel. shutting them down is the safe option. Having a service unavailable through the wee hours is far preferable then say having to undo a whole of transactions that inadvertantly get run twice (think of all the automated payment systems scheduled to run at certain times). A bank even has to consider the connections to other financial institutions and whether their applications behave properly. Also you could almost guarantee that while the core transaction processing is on a old-fashioned mainfram, the will more than likely have one of pretty much every platform doing some part of their business applications. ( I actually worked on a project that was going to bring in a new Java on UNIX platform a few years ago, unfortunately it was put on ice 6 months in). Regards, Martin martinvisse...@gmail.com On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Daniel Pittman dan...@rimspace.net wrote: Jake Anderson ya...@vapourforge.com writes: Jim Donovan wrote: I noticed the following on the Commonwealth netbank site this morning: NetBank, Mobile Banking and Telephone Banking will be unavailable between 2am and 5am EST on Sunday 4 April 2010 to allow for the changeover from Australian Eastern Daylight Savings time to Australian Eastern Standard time. Please take this timeframe into consideration when completing your banking. For updates during this change, please visit: www.commbank.com.au/update. Please press NEXT to access NetBank. Assuming it wasn't an April Fool joke, perhaps it means their databases use local time and the logic won't permit transactions to be entered out of order such as might appear to be if one happened just before the changeover time and another less than an hour later. How quaint! I remember hearing once that Commonwealth Bank servers were always rebooted on Sundays so they'd be less likely to go down during the week. Odds are its more to do with their internal applications which are probably written on cobalt running on CP/M machines or something equally modern. Your probably lucky they even know time zones exist ;-. My money would be on the very boring option, paranoia: If you shut down as many of these systems as possible during the change over, then those systems *can't* go wrong — because they are doing nothing. If you leave them running then, hey, maybe something breaks. So, if you want to look at the cost/benefit analysis the cost of a few hours outage overnight is pretty low, especially if you can schedule it well in advance, and even more so if you can do some other maintenance work at the same time. Meanwhile, no risk of things going wrong during the change-over, which is always a huge PR fiasco even if nothing really bad happens. Daniel If it was my call, I would probably do the same thing. Way too many developers get simple things like this day has no 2:30AM or this day has two 2:00AMs wrong. -- ✣ Daniel Pittman✉ dan...@rimspace.net☎ +61 401 155 707 ♽ made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
Heracles wrote:
Alan L Tyree wrote:
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:38:35 +1100
Heracles herac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
SNIP
{note to Jon: forget Scribus, it still crashes regularly. I have been
trying to use the stable version to produce a magazine I write for
another computer club and had to go back to using OOo as Scribus
crashed almost every time I tried to use the story editor to change
the text a little. It needs a lot more development to be usable.}
What version of Scribus are you using? I have used it a fair amount,
but always the ScribusNG package. I have never had any problem with it
at all. First on Debian Lenny, recently on Debian Squeeze. A quick look
at the Ubuntu forums didn't turn up any recent complaints about crashes.
Also, the Scribus website has just announced a bug-fix version 1.3.6.
Since LyX/LaTeX have usually been sufficient for my publishing
needs, I have never been a heavy user of it, so maybe I just haven't hit
the wall. Still, seems surprising to me since I have had very good
results when I have used it.
Cheers,
Alan
Hi Alan,
Version is 1.3.3.14(Stable)
I'll upgrade to 1.3.6 and see if that helps. My magazine is 24 pages, so
it should not be a problem for even a simple DTP.
Thanks
Heracles
Just finished the download. I'll see how it goes. Funny thing happened,
I was able to run two instances of Synaptic both downloading different
programs in different windows simultaneously. It usually won't allow this.
Heracles
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Re: [SLUG] Re: Time Pedantry
Rick Welykochy r...@praxis.com.au writes: Nick Andrew wrote: Indeed. The Earth's rotational period does vary slightly (effect of earthquakes notwithstanding). One reason time is hard to deal with sensibly is our insistence on synchronising it to the mean solar day. // off topic Easter Time time ramblings Isaac Asimov figured it out years ago. From memory ... Create a new calendar with 52 weeks of 7 days = 364 days. Add one extra day, called World Day, at the end - 365 days. World Day does not have a day of the week. In this way, every date falls on the same day of the week in every year. Note that this doesn't address the GMT/UT[C01] issue, which is all about the relationship between local time and time-as-seen-by-astronomers, or perhaps more clearly, time as it relates to the actions of things other than our own planet rotating. For leaps years, add an extra Leap day after World Day. It too has no day of the week. To make things precise, every 100 years, there is no Leap Day, but every 400 years there is. That pretty well matches up the solar year to the earth's rotation. I don't find this convincing, FWIW, since it doesn't address issues like every five days in a terribly meaningful day. All it does is translate those into one of two problems: Either you have every five days, except once a year when it is six or seven days between instances, or every five days, but which day changes every year. Unfortunately, we can't just stop the world for world day, which means that we still have unpredictable day/date matching. [...] I don't recall Asimov dealing with the tetchy problem of daylight time. IIRC he thought it was a silly idea, as were the politically motivated time zones. Both views are ... arguably true. :) Daniel -- ✣ Daniel Pittman✉ dan...@rimspace.net☎ +61 401 155 707 ♽ made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 12:10:38PM +1100, meryl wrote: * New and upgraded applications demonstrated and discussed * Distros compared and evaluated * Using Linux with various peripherals -- scanners, printers, tablets, multiple screens * Bash programming techniques -- but keeping it simple * OpenOffice techniques and macros * GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus techniques In addition to the above, (a very good list Jon!) I'd also like to see basic/beginning Python, basic/beginning Rails/Ruby, troubleshooting problems; i.e. using run levels, wireless setup etc... So this is a very good list of talks. But who is going to volunteer to give them? The problem SLUG has had over the last few years is that we have had a new influx of users rather than the old band of techies. The problem as I see it though is that only the techies are willing to actually present. The SLUG committee I'm sure would take up any of the suggested topics in a heart beat if anyone was prepared to present them. So I suppose I would call out to the new crowd of users that have joined SLUG in the last few years. If you want to make SLUG more relevant for you then you need to actually stand up and become a part of it. Things you can do * Run for the committee * Help the committee run meetings but most importantly offer to give a talk at slug. Even if it is just a 10 minute talk on a cool feature you just discovered in Inkscape last week. Cheers, John -- John Blog http://www.inodes.org LCA2010 http://www.lca2010.org.nz -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: Time Pedantry
We should all just use unix timestamp for all date/time communications and be done with it. There I fixed it, http://thereifixedit.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/129138460976317329.jpg Hail me as leader Daniel Pittman wrote: Rick Welykochy r...@praxis.com.au writes: Nick Andrew wrote: Indeed. The Earth's rotational period does vary slightly (effect of earthquakes notwithstanding). One reason time is hard to deal with sensibly is our insistence on synchronising it to the mean solar day. // off topic Easter Time time ramblings Isaac Asimov figured it out years ago. From memory ... Create a new calendar with 52 weeks of 7 days = 364 days. Add one extra day, called World Day, at the end - 365 days. World Day does not have a day of the week. In this way, every date falls on the same day of the week in every year. Note that this doesn't address the GMT/UT[C01] issue, which is all about the relationship between local time and time-as-seen-by-astronomers, or perhaps more clearly, time as it relates to the actions of things other than our own planet rotating. For leaps years, add an extra Leap day after World Day. It too has no day of the week. To make things precise, every 100 years, there is no Leap Day, but every 400 years there is. That pretty well matches up the solar year to the earth's rotation. I don't find this convincing, FWIW, since it doesn't address issues like every five days in a terribly meaningful day. All it does is translate those into one of two problems: Either you have every five days, except once a year when it is six or seven days between instances, or every five days, but which day changes every year. Unfortunately, we can't just stop the world for world day, which means that we still have unpredictable day/date matching. [...] I don't recall Asimov dealing with the tetchy problem of daylight time. IIRC he thought it was a silly idea, as were the politically motivated time zones. Both views are ... arguably true. :) Daniel -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Why so snooty? Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?
Rick Welykochy wrote: Jake Anderson wrote: The bank may well be pretty sure that nothing will go wrong but given the cost/benefit ratio its prudent not to take the chance that there is one line of code somewhere or another in the many tens of millions they have that will freak out when the clock goes backwards. What about ATMs? Will they be down for the count? If not, and the main systems are down, they must queue up transactions. The timestamps on those transactions will have to be handled correctly when the queue is processed. Including transactions during the hour the leaps back. Just spoke to somebody in the know netbank is shut down, all other services are unaffected (well common services anyway). Her explanation is this. All other transactions are processed in a batch at night, IF you withdraw money at an ATM your account balance is immediately debited but the transaction itself is just recorded. This is presumably also when all the interests are calculated and so on. Only on business nights are those transactions actually processed to create a statement. Netbank transactions however are processed instantly. As such it can cause issues when the time roles back. It probably also has something to do with the age of netbank, its very very new as far as bank software goes. Listening to the errors they have with processing and the like, its enough to make me want to keep my money under the bed. The same can be said about bank-to-bank and bank-to-international transactions. It seems like a problem they must already have to deal with. Transactions world wide into and out of Australia do not stop for an hour at 2:00 AM Easter Sunday, do they? Anyone working in the banking sector out there? cheers rickw -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] SLUG Membership decline
FYI: PLUG has had similar discussions and similar issues. It may be worthwhile having the bodies discuss things informally to see what ideas can be brainstormed. On Fri, Apr 02, 2010, meryl wrote: On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:14:03 +1100 jon jonjer...@optusnet.com.au wrote: 1. Make it possible to obtain and renew membership online Yes, I'd become a member if I could do it online or via snail mail. 2. Take advantage of the increasing interest in Linux on the desktop by setting up an Applications SIG and/or focussing on applications at some events. ... So most of the talks and events scheduled by SLUG hold no interest for me. Here! Here! I totally agree, the majority of list of 2009 presented talks appeared to be waaay too techy to entice me to come along and SLUGlets talks appear to be too short to offer anything substantial to take away use. I raised this same issue about a year ago (iirc), I mentioned that LUV's plans for Software Freedom Day http://softwarefreedomday.org/melb looked like a very appealing program of talks and workshops that I'd be really keen to see something like that organised on a regular basis, at SLUG-meets, for us Sydney-siders. * New and upgraded applications demonstrated and discussed * Distros compared and evaluated * Using Linux with various peripherals -- scanners, printers, tablets, multiple screens * Bash programming techniques -- but keeping it simple * OpenOffice techniques and macros * GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus techniques In addition to the above, (a very good list Jon!) I'd also like to see basic/beginning Python, basic/beginning Rails/Ruby, troubleshooting problems; i.e. using run levels, wireless setup etc... cheers, Meryl -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html -- - Xenion - http://www.xenion.com.au/ - VPS Hosting - Commercial Squid Support - - $24/pm+GST entry-level VPSes w/ capped bandwidth charges available in WA - -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: Time Pedantry
Jake Anderson wrote: We should all just use unix timestamp for all date/time communications and be done with it. There I fixed it, http://thereifixedit.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/129138460976317329.jpg Hail me as leader Hey Leader, Are the horses drawing a UTC cart clock or sumthink? Happy Yeaster on 1270187886. Is the next SLUG meeting at 1273927886? CYA on 1271187886. cheers rickw -- _ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Hofstadter's Law. It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
On-line payments: Re: Why so snooty? Re: [SLUG] Which bank doesn't use Linux servers?
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 13:47:32 +1100 Jake Anderson ya...@vapourforge.com wrote: Rick Welykochy wrote: Jake Anderson wrote: The bank may well be pretty sure that nothing will go wrong but given the cost/benefit ratio its prudent not to take the chance that there is one line of code somewhere or another in the many tens of millions they have that will freak out when the clock goes backwards. What about ATMs? Will they be down for the count? If not, and the main systems are down, they must queue up transactions. The timestamps on those transactions will have to be handled correctly when the queue is processed. Including transactions during the hour the leaps back. Just spoke to somebody in the know netbank is shut down, all other services are unaffected (well common services anyway). Her explanation is this. All other transactions are processed in a batch at night, IF you withdraw money at an ATM your account balance is immediately debited but the transaction itself is just recorded. This is presumably also when all the interests are calculated and so on. Only on business nights are those transactions actually processed to create a statement. Netbank transactions however are processed instantly. As such it can cause issues when the time roles back. Yes and no. Netbank and similar systems are built on the commercial bulk clearing system. In the original version, the bulk clearing was done by the bilateral exchange of tapes - the CEMTEX system. These days, they bilaterally exchange files several times a day. In the commercial system, a customer with a large number of employees prepares a file with the details of each employees salary and banking arrangements. The customers bank sorts the file according to the destination bank and sends the individual files to the appropriate bank. Netbank and similar systems are built on top of this. Very clever in a way, but the commercial system totally ignores the name of the payee. OK in the commercial context, but easy for consumers to make a mistake. The law is clear on who should refund the money when a mistake is made, but because there is no cheap remedy, the banks have simply buggered customers that make a mistake. The Australian Securities and Investments Commission is reviewing the EFT Code of Practice and has said that mistaken payments will be included in the new Code. We'll see. Masochists can read about the legal situation and the bloody mindedness of the banks here: http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan/mistaken-epayments.html Cheers, Alan It probably also has something to do with the age of netbank, its very very new as far as bank software goes. Listening to the errors they have with processing and the like, its enough to make me want to keep my money under the bed. The same can be said about bank-to-bank and bank-to-international transactions. It seems like a problem they must already have to deal with. Transactions world wide into and out of Australia do not stop for an hour at 2:00 AM Easter Sunday, do they? Anyone working in the banking sector out there? cheers rickw -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
