Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
Jobst Schmalenbach wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:53:38AM +1000, Adam F. Bogacki ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. This is actually in FAVOUR of linux. If companies have to pay more for software (add 10% to the purchase) they'll start thinking and move to a more viable option(s). ... and $0 + 10%gst = $0 Ummm, I don't think you understand how GST works. At least here in Oz, companies get to deduct the GST they have paid from the GST remittance they make to the government. So, the reality is that for companies, things do not cost 10% more, so there is no advantage to using free software. jobst Regards --- Richard Sharpe, [EMAIL PROTECTED], LPIC1 www.samba.org, www.ethereal.com, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours, Special Edition, Using Samba -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
I've often wondered about this and I've often wondered why the gummint couldn't slap the GST on all CC charges originating O/S as they currently do with FID/BAD etc through the banks, CC companies, etc. Thoughts anyone? -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates http://lannetlinux.com _ We needn't, as socialists, get too concerned about privacy; it's a bourgeois right, closely allied to the right to private property. - Former Federal Health Minister Neal Blewett, addressing the Fabian Society in 1988 in relation to the Australia Card issue. On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Jon Biddell wrote: Why? What's the GST on zero? More importantly, how the hell can they monitor / police it ? I mean, o/s software vendors aren't going to care what the NZ tax is, and they ain't about to collect it ! Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 04:02:03PM +0930, Richard Sharpe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Jobst Schmalenbach wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:53:38AM +1000, Adam F. Bogacki ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. This is actually in FAVOUR of linux. If companies have to pay more for software (add 10% to the purchase) they'll start thinking and move to a more viable option(s). ... and $0 + 10%gst = $0 Ummm, I don't think you understand how GST works. At least here in Oz, companies get to deduct the GST they have paid from the GST remittance they make to the government. I dont, thats why I have accountants! But I actually asked two of them what happens when I buy software from USA (now and future, if we need to pay 10%). Software (currently) is not taxed if you **download** it. If it gets via customs, add 10%. In the future (if this law will get through) downloads will be taxed with 10%, too! (BTW governments would be silly not to take this revenue, thinking that MOST of software will be via internet anyway!!) And yes you get *SOME* of it back. You will not get all of it back or there wouldnt be any point of the 10% GST anyway, wouldnt it So, the reality is that for companies, things do not cost 10% more, so there is no advantage to using free software. No advantage? You have in your signature SAMBA included. Lets take that as an example, shall we? WinNT server: $600 Per seat license: $ 70 (not sure here, little bit more/less) So for a company with 20 workstations: 1x$600 20X $70 - $2000 versus Samba: $0 No incentive? You must be kidding! jobst -- My software never has bugs; it just develops random features. |__, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director| | _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L The Meditation Room P/L | |-(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia| -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
More importantly, how the hell can they monitor / police it ? I mean, o/s software vendors aren't going to care what the NZ tax is, and they ain't about to collect it ! Since when have facts, or technological possibilities, stopped governments from making stupid laws? Sorry - holidays made me simple-minded for a moment. You make a good point...:-) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Jobst Schmalenbach wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 04:02:03PM +0930, Richard Sharpe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Jobst Schmalenbach wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:53:38AM +1000, Adam F. Bogacki ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. This is actually in FAVOUR of linux. If companies have to pay more for software (add 10% to the purchase) they'll start thinking and move to a more viable option(s). ... and $0 + 10%gst = $0 Ummm, I don't think you understand how GST works. At least here in Oz, companies get to deduct the GST they have paid from the GST remittance they make to the government. I dont, thats why I have accountants! But I actually asked two of them what happens when I buy software from USA (now and future, if we need to pay 10%). Software (currently) is not taxed if you **download** it. If it gets via customs, add 10%. In the future (if this law will get through) downloads will be taxed with 10%, too! (BTW governments would be silly not to take this revenue, thinking that MOST of software will be via internet anyway!!) And yes you get *SOME* of it back. You will not get all of it back or there wouldnt be any point of the 10% GST anyway, wouldnt it No you get all of it back, the GST is a *consumer* tax. Anything you buy for business will eventually be passed on to your customers (assuming you want to operate at a profit), if the government charges tax at both points it is double dipping. (Incidently Hanson proposed a tax that did operate like this although the rate was only 2% not 10%). Anyway by now we are hopelessly off topic and it doesn't really matter since even if you aren't paying gst on the software you are still paying for the software anyway. Benno -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
Ummm, I don't think you understand how GST works. At least here in Oz, companies get to deduct the GST they have paid from the GST remittance they make to the government. So, the reality is that for companies, things do not cost 10% more, so there is no advantage to using free software. only if you charge the same amount of GST to those you sell your service/product to. If you sell less, you get hit with the GST... e.g spend $1000 - get hit with $100 gst only sell $100 worth of goods - $10 GST meaning you get hit with $90 gst to pay or have paid. *i think i am correct hehe * -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Richard Sharpe So, the reality is that for companies, things do not cost 10% more, so there is no advantage to using free software. Obviously not because Free Software is 100% less than 10% less than 110%? :) Surely there were those other advantage of Free Software in there too... Jeff, you have taken my quote completely out of context. I was responding to the claim that GST makes free software somehow more attractive than non-free software for businesses. It is just not so. As to your other claims about the advantages of free software, the situation is very complex, and perception is reality for many businesses. I am someone who lives and breathes free software, and while my record is not as resplendent as that of some others, I think it speaks for itself. However, the world is an inherently complex place, and the GPL creates difficulties for some businesses. In addition, until we have strong certification, like LPI, being pushed at businesses by all the Linux supporters around the world, free software will appear to be unsupported and unsupportable to many businesses. - Jeff -- Regards --- Richard Sharpe, [EMAIL PROTECTED], LPIC1 www.samba.org, www.ethereal.com, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours, Special Edition, Using Samba -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
quote who=Richard Sharpe Obviously not because Free Software is 100% less than 10% less than 110%? :) Surely there were those other advantage of Free Software in there too... Jeff, you have taken my quote completely out of context. Yes, I'm sorry if that came across harshly, I was hoping that the 'take comment completely out of context' approach would prove funnier. It, ah, seems not. ;) - Jeff (harmless) -- GIMP is the primary tool in my graphics work. It is my gcc and Emacs. - Tuomas Kuosmanen (tigert) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 05:15:20PM +1000, Ben Leslie ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Jobst Schmalenbach wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 04:02:03PM +0930, Richard Sharpe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Jobst Schmalenbach wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:53:38AM +1000, Adam F. Bogacki ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: [snip] No you get all of it back, the GST is a *consumer* tax. Anything you buy for business will eventually be passed on to your customers (assuming you want to operate at a profit), if the government charges tax at both points it is double dipping. (Incidently Hanson proposed a tax that did operate like this although the rate was only 2% not 10%). Point taken then and I was wrong! Sorry to Richard Sharpe, too as I fired back to sharply. jobst -- Computers run on smoke, once the smoke gets out they don't work anymore. |__, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director| | _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L The Meditation Room P/L | |-(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia| -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 28/06/2001 at 5:32 PM Richard Sharpe [EMAIL PROTECTED] [gregausit/slug] wrote: Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Richard Sharpe So, the reality is that for companies, things do not cost 10% more, so there is no advantage to using free software. Obviously not because Free Software is 100% less than 10% less than 110%? :) Surely there were those other advantage of Free Software in there too... Jeff, you have taken my quote completely out of context. I was responding to the claim that GST makes free software somehow more attractive than non-free software for businesses. It is just not so. I would have to agree here, in Aus and I suspect NZ, we already pay highly inflated prices for most software because of a weak dollar etc etc, in many business uses many other factors come into play when deciding on a solution. I won't go into other brain dead ideas of controling the Internet, I ashamedly think we must be world leaders in this area, however any poor sod in Aus who recieves funds for registration of software that has been downloaded will already be passing on the GST in most cases. As to your other claims about the advantages of free software, the situation is very complex, and perception is reality for many businesses. This is true, but I have to say in many places I have gone, I am happy with the uptake of Linux by many Australian companies, but in the end each has to do their own deciding, I have read tech docs by so called IT professionals that would make your hair curl (reasons why X OS is superior to Y), in the end I would have to concede that obviously X is an expert at marketing and the main reason why it was chosen. I am someone who lives and breathes free software, and while my record is not as resplendent as that of some others, I think it speaks for itself. However, the world is an inherently complex place, and the GPL creates difficulties for some businesses. In addition, until we have strong certification, like LPI, being pushed at businesses by all the Linux supporters around the world, free software will appear to be unsupported and unsupportable to many businesses. Speaking of LPI and my main reason for chiming in, can you contact me off list Richard ? Also anyone interested in helping promote LPI could contact myself, LPI will be creating a formal body here to help promote the certification (funds are needed). There has been some interest in certification here, but not enough IMHO, the LPI certs are recognised by many large corporations througout the world (if there is interest on SLUG a seperate thread could be started) Regards Greg Wright -- IT Consultant Sydney Australia PH 0418 292020 Available for Global Contracts Int. +61 418 292020 Web http://www.ausit.comE-mail Greg AT AusIT.com Trading As - AAA Computers -- providers of IT services. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. Adam Bogacki, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/PA0106/S00406.htm Scoop GST Changes For Electronic Commerce Proposed.url
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
$0 + 10/12/15%? = $0 No problem see I - A different Adam - Original Message - From: Adam F. Bogacki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Slug@Slug. Org. Au [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:53 AM Subject: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?] The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. Adam Bogacki, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/PA0106/S00406.htm -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
quote who=Adam F. Bogacki The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. Good god! I hope it doesn't happen here! That ten percent on $0 is going to be a killer. [ -- slug-chat ] - Jeff -- Markets are what you sell bubbly health drinks, flourescent blow up furniture and mobile phone ring melodies to. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:53:38AM +1000, Adam F. Bogacki ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. This is actually in FAVOUR of linux. If companies have to pay more for software (add 10% to the purchase) they'll start thinking and move to a more viable option(s). .. and $0 + 10%gst = $0 jobst -- The journey of a thousand steps begins with few hundred forgotten necessities. |__, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director| | _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L The Meditation Room P/L | |-(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia| -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
Why? What's the GST on zero? More importantly, how the hell can they monitor / police it ? I mean, o/s software vendors aren't going to care what the NZ tax is, and they ain't about to collect it ! Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
Yep, but it's a foot in the door ... I have no objection if Mr. William Gates' XP downloads are taxed. Adam. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of DaZZa Sent: 28 June, 2001 10:55 AM To: Adam F. Bogacki Cc: Slug@Slug. Org. Au Subject: Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?] On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Adam F. Bogacki wrote: The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. Why? What's the GST on zero? You pay GST based on the purchase price. Pay nothing - no GST. DaZZa -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
I was careful to say possibly. You could well be right. Adam. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jobst Schmalenbach Sent: 28 June, 2001 11:07 AM To: Slug@Slug. Org. Au Subject: Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?] On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:53:38AM +1000, Adam F. Bogacki ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. This is actually in FAVOUR of linux. If companies have to pay more for software (add 10% to the purchase) they'll start thinking and move to a more viable option(s). .. and $0 + 10%gst = $0 jobst -- The journey of a thousand steps begins with few hundred forgotten necessities. |__, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director| | _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L The Meditation Room P/L | |-(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia| -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 02:15:44PM +1000, Adam F. Bogacki ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Yep, but it's a foot in the door ... I have no objection if Mr. William Gates' XP downloads are taxed. Especially if they are taxed by the MEGABYTE!! hehehehehehehe jhs -- Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL. |__, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director| | _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L The Meditation Room P/L | |-(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia| -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 02:15:46PM +1000, Adam F. Bogacki ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I was careful to say possibly. You could well be right. Adam 1 Jobst 1 ;-) jhs -- The computer is your friend. It never argues until Gates squeezed Chilly through the CDROM door! |__, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director| | _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L The Meditation Room P/L | |-(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia| -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Adam F. Bogacki wrote: Yep, but it's a foot in the door ... I have no objection if Mr. William Gates' XP downloads are taxed. How will this affect subscription based software? I presume there will be a GST based impost everytime you need an update rachel -- Rachel PolanskisOptus/Excite@Home UNIX Administrator 100 Harris Street IT Operations Pyrmont, Sydney NSW [EMAIL PROTECTED]Ph: (+61 2) 900 51144 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
I wouldn't put it past our current government. Adam. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeff Waugh Sent: 28 June, 2001 01:03 AM To: Slug@Slug. Org. Au Subject: Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?] quote who=Adam F. Bogacki The NZ government Government is proposing to charge GST on software downloaded over the internet, possibly threatening the open-source model of software distribution. Good god! I hope it doesn't happen here! That ten percent on $0 is going to be a killer. [ -- slug-chat ] - Jeff -- Markets are what you sell bubbly health drinks, flourescent blow up furniture and mobile phone ring melodies to. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] NZ proposes GST on downloaded software.[ Here next ?]
quote who=Richard Sharpe So, the reality is that for companies, things do not cost 10% more, so there is no advantage to using free software. Obviously not because Free Software is 100% less than 10% less than 110%? :) Surely there were those other advantage of Free Software in there too... - Jeff -- Laughter is a force for democracy. - John Cleese -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
