Re: Those who do... [Was: [SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report]
On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 02:27:17PM +1000, Philip Greggs wrote: Extreme examples are codefests in Wollongong in recent times. If you remember or check the Archives, it was announced only Debian installs will be done. 1) Installfest, not codefest 2) Ubuntu, not Debian 3) It was only for UoW students, it wasn't a general-attendence event 4) It had a very specific intended outcome (which, IMO, contributed significantly to it's success), which was predicated on using the distribution that was chosen 5) It wasn't a SLUG-organised event, it was put together by the South Coast Linux User's Group, with the much-appreciated assistance of dedicated SLUGgers. 6) If you'd like to find a University local to you that uses your distro of choice and run a similar event, go nuts. I think that focused-outcome events like the SCLUG/UoW Installfests are incredibly valuable for helping to build the community in particular ways. I'll add that, right at the outset of planning the first SCLUG/UoW installfest, the decision was made to use whatever distro the UoW CS department was using -- this was *before* I found out that the department had switched from using RedHat to Debian since I had left. Hence, I was *expecting* to have a RedHat-only installfest. Would you have made the same comment as that quoted above if the event had been $YOUR_DISTRO_OF_CHOICE-only? - Matt signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Those who do... [Was: [SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report]
On 4/6/06, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: quote who=Philip Greggs The rumour vines says this: intending members using other distros are discouraged altogether from becoming members. The President's report was making this plain and clear - declining membership in recent years. I don't think this is accurate at all. Membership has been declining due to the change in demographic Demography as I understand is a basket of things like Age, Sex, Race, Education, and similar categories. This can't be correlated to decline in SLUG membership. The link is very weak. How can it be responsible for the membership decline ? Perceptions are stronger links and have direct correlations to people decisions in deciding to become financial members of SLUG, I'd think. and growing general popularity and relevance of Linux, and SLUG's inability to demonstrate the value of membership (no diss, it's hard to do) beyond 'support the organisation and community' (which is why I am a member). SLUG has gone through many leanings when it comes to distributions. At one point, it was a SuSE club. I imagine the Debian leaning has stuck for a long time due to the community buy-in, the long-running Debian SIG, its general popularity in Australia, local consultants and professionals using it, new and popular derivatives strengthening the ecosystem and userbase, etc. It's probably true that preferences for Linux Distro in SLUG varies but there is a concerted effort currently to promoting Debian/Ubuntu. Some would-be members percieved this as dis-incentives to their interest because they are not buying into this Debian/Ubuntu stunt. But I do not agree that new members or contributors to the local community have been turned away due to their choice of distro *excluding* Extreme examples are codefests in Wollongong in recent times. If you remember or check the Archives, it was announced only Debian installs will be done. those who were unable to receive help because other users of their distro are not well represented in this community. That is certainly true, but not something we can easily fix (for instance, I am not about to change distros to make sure I can help other SLUG members, and I imagine that's true for everyone here, and the same applies to browsers, email clients, desktop environments, etc). They may not be able to help with your distro problems, but they can sure as hell help with your Linux (and general FLOSS) problems. S*L*UG! This whole discussion is way more divisive than the Well, this is how I'd solve it in the distro I know, perhaps this will help you find out the right solution in yours answers that we occasionally get. Slightly less divisive than the DUH install [my distro]! lolz!, but annoyingly more verbose. ;-) I do'nt think it is divisive. I am highlighting what many are avoiding to say in public but persistently say in private. I think the thing to take out of this discussion is that it takes a lot of work to build a community, and if you want to get a particular thing out of your community, you need to contribute and work towards it. Do you think people using other distros are not contributing ? PG -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Those who do... [Was: [SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report]
Extreme examples are codefests in Wollongong in recent times. If you remember or check the Archives, it was announced only Debian installs will be done. Leaving aside the rest of the message can I make a couple of corrections here please. Firstly it was an installfest not a code fest, secondly it was aimed at a specific group(CS Students at UOW) with a specific need(That their PC's host the same environment as the lab machines - which only run Debian). So using this as an example of some dastardly plan to do away with all other distros at SLUG is kinda stupid. I should also like to point out that while there were many SLUGgers at the installfest and their help was greatly appreciated, it was actually an event run by the South Coast Linux Users Group based out of Wollongong. -- James Purser Producer/Presenter - Linux Australia Update http://k-sit.com - My Blog http://localfoss.org - LA Update Podcast, LUG Roundup and more Skype: purserj1977 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Those who do... [Was: [SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report]
quote who=Philip Greggs I don't think this is accurate at all. Membership has been declining due to the change in demographic Demography as I understand is a basket of things like Age, Sex, Race, Education, and similar categories. This can't be correlated to decline in SLUG membership. The link is very weak. How can it be responsible for the membership decline ? Perceptions are stronger links and have direct correlations to people decisions in deciding to become financial members of SLUG, I'd think. The demographic of Linux users is expanding and changing - that has an impact on every project, LUG, association and organisation in our little world. SLUG is no longer all-coders, it is no longer all-sysadmins. The entire 'market' *around* Free Software is maturing. That is what I mean by the change in demographic... We've known about this for a long time, too: http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/2002/the-future-of-slug/ It's probably true that preferences for Linux Distro in SLUG varies but there is a concerted effort currently to promoting Debian/Ubuntu. Some would-be members percieved this as dis-incentives to their interest because they are not buying into this Debian/Ubuntu stunt. There's no concerted effort to promote Debian or Ubuntu. Debian has been very popular in SLUG (and Australia in general) for a long time, and the community of Debian developers and Debian users in SLUG have been actively helping and supporting themselves by creating events such as DebSIG. This tends to happen more effectively for community efforts, like Debian. Ubuntu only turned up on the scene in September, 2004. The local Debian community was already thriving at that point (which gave some of us the opportunity to get involved in Canonical at a very early stage). Making all of this fun and excitement sound like a conspiracy is pretty silly. :-) But I do not agree that new members or contributors to the local community have been turned away due to their choice of distro *excluding* Extreme examples are codefests in Wollongong in recent times. If you remember or check the Archives, it was announced only Debian installs will be done. I think that has more to do with policy and familiarity (particularly when it comes to local community support) than anything else. From memory, many of the SCLUG install fests have been associated with the University and its students. I do'nt think it is divisive. I am highlighting what many are avoiding to say in public but persistently say in private. Funny though, that saying it in private doesn't actually do anything towards solving the perceived problem. The fact that this thread inspired Del to at least *say* he was going to create a Fedora SIG is great. No one's going to fix the problem except the people who want it fixed - so please go bananas! I think the thing to take out of this discussion is that it takes a lot of work to build a community, and if you want to get a particular thing out of your community, you need to contribute and work towards it. Do you think people using other distros are not contributing ? They are pretty obviously not contributing *to their own success* (which is the message in my paragraph above, and not one that should be misconstrued - purposefully or otherwise). - Jeff -- Desktop Linux Summit 2006 http://www.desktoplinuxsummit.org/ Push the envelope, or push the daisies. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Those who do... [Was: [SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report]
On Thu, 2006-04-06 at 12:09 +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: I think the thing to take out of this discussion is that it takes a lot of work to build a community, and if you want to get a particular thing out of your community, you need to contribute and work towards it. In 2001 (I think) I wanted to learn more about Debian. With the approval of the SLUG committee (required for insurance cover, etc) I booked a room in a pub and sent out an email. That's all it took. About twenty people turned up to the Wooloomolloo Bay Hotel and the Debian Special Interest Group (SIG) was born. It's still running in some form today. I'm of the understanding it was and still is the only monthly meeting of people interested in Debian and Debian Developers in the world. Many great ideas, projects and partnerships have spawned from those meetings. Within a few meetings it had gone from being Debian only talk topics to more like SLUG-Social - with the name never being changed because no one could think of a more suitable one. The only down side of the DebSIGs was that some people chose to never come because the event had the word Debian in it, despite most talks being non-distro specific (we even had a Gentoo talk). The many people from Sydney and around the globe who come to DebSIG know exactly what a vibrant, informative and embracing meeting it is. The flaming drinks have become particularly notorious ;) This year we're at our new, third venue. Those of you who have never been, keep an eye out for a topic that's of interest and come along. It will probably still be called DebSIG but as others have found out, it's really about community and sharing knowledge. To re-iterate Jeff's point, if there's something you want out of your SLUG community, all it takes is to book a room somewhere and send out an email. -- Cheers, Craige. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Those who do... [Was: [SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report]
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 05:53:30PM +1000, Craige McWhirter wrote: Many great ideas, projects and partnerships have spawned from those meetings. Within a few meetings it had gone from being Debian only talk topics to more like SLUG-Social - with the name never being changed because no one could think of a more suitable one. BeerSIG? - Matt -- I invented the term object-oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind. -- Alan Kay -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Those who do... [Was: [SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report]
On Thu, 2006-04-06 at 19:04 +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote: On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 05:53:30PM +1000, Craige McWhirter wrote: Many great ideas, projects and partnerships have spawned from those meetings. Within a few meetings it had gone from being Debian only talk topics to more like SLUG-Social - with the name never being changed because no one could think of a more suitable one. BeerSIG? Hasn't anybody pointed out, yet, how easily slugs drown in beer? -- Pete -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 12:55:19PM +1000, Philip Greggs wrote: SLUG server being offline for a few extended outages due to hardware issues which thankfully have now been sorted recently by removing hardware from the equation - ie it's now on a virtual server. I check SLUG web site daily. Now appears reliable. Keep it that way. That's certainly the plan. neutral. It is perceived SLUG is driven by self-interest. There are Self-interest (enlightened, if possible) is the best driver there is. Pure selflessness isn't really in vogue any more, and I don't think it works really well without an external influence to keep your focused anyway. many Suse, Gentoo, RH, FC, etc, users than Debian/Ubuntu. Assuming you meant s/many/many more/ I'd say that your statement is only true if you take the aggregate of those distributions you mentioned. Not that might makes right, but Debian people tend to be more participative (how's that for a euphemism!) in online fora, so you're naturally going to get more noise about that distro. As well there's these perceptions of too much influence by few individuals that alienates many would be members, newbies and professionals alike. You does the work, you gets the influence. - Matt -- Igloo I remember going to my first tutorial in room 404. I was most upset when I found it. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: 2006 President's Report
quote who=Matt Palmer neutral. It is perceived SLUG is driven by self-interest. There are Self-interest (enlightened, if possible) is the best driver there is. Pure selflessness isn't really in vogue any more, and I don't think it works really well without an external influence to keep your focused anyway. I think another ingredient in the recipe is that it's much easier to get excited about a community project that you can feel some attachment to or ownership of. That doesn't offset the dumbness of *lolz*, use Debian or die, roflcopter! crap that goes on sometimes. - Jeff -- FISL 7.0: Porto Alegre, Brazilhttp://fisl.softwarelivre.org/7.0/www/ Hunch, n.: U.S. Foreign Policy. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] RE: 2006 President's Report
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 12:55 +1000, Philip Greggs wrote: What I heard from the rumour vines is that SLUG has become too Debianized and/or Ubuntoized instead of being Linux Distribution neutral. It is perceived SLUG is driven by self-interest. There are many Suse, Gentoo, RH, FC, etc, users than Debian/Ubuntu. I am Debian user myself in my hobby and I don't like other Linux Users devaluing other Linux distros. The archive lists seem to support this. Speaking as a bit of an outsider (I'm not an actual member of SLUG, but I write like one). While there is a large population of Debian/Ubuntu users it hasn't to my mind precluded fans of other distros availing themselves of either the mailing lists or irc channels when seeking help/assistance. In fact one of the most recent(and active) threads is seeking help in installing VMWare on Fedora Core 5. On the irc channel there are gentoo users, debian users, fedora users and more. As well there's these perceptions of too much influence by few individuals that alienates many would be members, newbies and professionals alike. Which individuals? There is - as with any group - a core group of the most active community members, as can be seen on the mailing list/irc channel. However the environment I have seen and participated in has been one of come in and join the fun, just leave your flames at the door. There are a couple of people who seem more inclined to argue than others, however you get that with any group and it is a good indication of a communities viability in how they deal with such people. If people are worried about a particular aspect of SLUG or any organisation then they need to bring it up in a forum such as this (which you are doing) in a manner which is not going to immediately spark an argument (again your post is polite, thoughtful and well written). -- James Purser Producer/Presenter - Linux Australia Update http://k-sit.com - My Blog http://localfoss.org - LA Update Podcast, LUG Roundup and more Skype: purserj1977 SIP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
