Re: From the forge
Here's an oldie I spotted at the weekend! http://youtu.be/vD-_rzUuiIM?t=19m2s DAN On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Perry Harovas perryharo...@gmail.com wrote: He is correct, that is a whole other level of badassery! On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: Big woot ! On 18 December 2014 at 16:27, Mirko Jankovic mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com wrote: A bit more of Softimage around 2min mark... Overall great watch but SI catches my eye ofc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JpfDgGdhNw -- Perry Harovas Animation and Visual Effects http://www.TheAfterImage.com http://www.theafterimage.com/ -25 Years Experience -Member of the Visual Effects Society (VES)
Re: From the forge
I like the Animators survival kit right beside his computer :) 2014-12-23 10:56 GMT+01:00 Dan Yargici danyarg...@gmail.com: Here's an oldie I spotted at the weekend! http://youtu.be/vD-_rzUuiIM?t=19m2s DAN On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Perry Harovas perryharo...@gmail.com wrote: He is correct, that is a whole other level of badassery! On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: Big woot ! On 18 December 2014 at 16:27, Mirko Jankovic mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com wrote: A bit more of Softimage around 2min mark... Overall great watch but SI catches my eye ofc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JpfDgGdhNw -- Perry Harovas Animation and Visual Effects http://www.TheAfterImage.com http://www.theafterimage.com/ -25 Years Experience -Member of the Visual Effects Society (VES)
Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016?
Just to be clear, I don´t want to portray Adsk as evil, I am bitching about the extra hurdles involved in finding the service packs to a specific release´s version and making sure all files neccessary are downloaded and named properly. In my personal case, I can pretty savely assume Softimage 2010, 2012, 2014 version jumps, so that´s not so bad actually. It´s a bit more difficult for 3rd party renderer versions and the 32bit64bit jump for plugins like the sRGB nodes from Harry Bardak in some legacy projects. Anything 64bit I am also positive will most likely be fine, like Sven suggests (one also learns a bit about project structuring, my old stuff has more final_v003.var2 files than now...) In terms of general backup strategy, I also got bitten once, losing a drive when swapping machines and then having to rebuild that data from iterative backups on other drives. Not nice, tedious actually. I can recommend Beyond Compare, that worked great for me in putting together a working version of a project and even completely restructuring my files into project specific folder structures, weeding out duplicates and reducing the chance of missing files by collecting things into one master folder branched into apps, files, etc. I do have to check if my dongle is still working, thought. A virtual machine is a very good tip. There´s a change I have a full backup of a working system drive available. I used Drive Snapshot in the past but haven´t touched those backup files in years. To be honest, there´s not too much stuff I would be proud in showing off, maybe some snippets from my thesis would be worth being polished and put on display, after more than 10 years... but I doubt it... For the last couple of years, I will mostly have *.obj and *.fbx files plus *.psd map files as well as *.ztl and *.mud files, that stuff is pretty save to open with newer versions atm. Thanks for your thoughts, it´s a bit spooky to realize 10 years ago now also looks like 10 years ago... Cheers, tim Am 23.12.2014 um 10:36 schrieb Rob Wuijster: Just to add some thoughts on this... I started building virtual pc's for this 'occasion' some years ago, just to be on the safe side. I still have a Win95/98/NT/2000/XP virtual disk lying around with some 'critial' software installed, just to be able to open up that one program from years ago. Or to run some other stuff that's impossible in the newer version of Windows now. At some point I had to convert my virtual pc 'disks' to a new virtual pc program, but that was less hassle than doing all Matt described. ;-) I think we're all in the same situation at the moment. I also have a boat load of assets, created over the years going back to Softimage 3.0. All neatly packaged in a separate project as scenes or models. All shaded and textured, ready to go. The more 'beefy' assets are now models linked to a Arnold .ass file for quick handling and rendering. At some point we sadly have to leave Softimage behind, so what to do with all these assets? Depending on what's next, there's probably a slow conversion to this new 3D application. Or conversion to .obj or .fbx for longer, more app agnostic storage. For me, having the virtuals pc's/software lying around is the easiest solution at the moment. How this all will play out in the next years is another story ;-) cheers, and happy holidays to all! Rob \/-\/\/ On 23-12-2014 4:05, Matt Lind wrote: For the record, it wasn't a case of forgetting to update files. I had already done the Softimage|3D -- XSI conversion many years ago, but I lost all that data when I experienced a hard drive failure last year. Now I have to do it all over again. The main problems I experienced was finding all the pieces to put humpty dumpty together again, as well as making them functional. Many of the installers, licenses, and so on that I had archived were also lost in the failure. The pieces I salvaged would not always function on modern operating systems - such as FlexLM. Fortunately I found just enough pieces make it all work again, but not after a lot of cutting wrists and trial and error. The advice I can give to anybody wanting to preserve their data is make an archive of the entire ecosystem, document everything, and make a redundant copy. That includes operating system, hardware, drivers for your graphics card, plugins, and so on. If you have any special knowledge of some quirk or secret handshake that is needed to install or work around a known issue - write it down and include it in the archive. Getting Softimage|3D up and running required such knowledge to know certain plugins needed a patch or required a specific version of Windows. Took me a couple days to recall that from my memory and go find those pieces to smooth out some problems I experienced. Matt Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:36:47 +0100 From: Sven Constable sixsi_l...@imagefront.de
Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016?
Virtual PCs work for now, and so does keeping archives of files around for the interim. One problem you may run into is expiration date of your licenses. I ran into this problem with my older XSI licenses. While Softimage called them 'permanent' licenses, they're actually 10-13 year time bombs. They're called permanent because Softimage assumed nobody would need to exhume data that far into the future as a newer release of the software would be available for that purpose. That's great until there are no more new releases. In due time everybody will hit the same problem - what to do when you can no longer maintain the ecosystem? That's where I'm at now and why I'm writing an exporter. In my particular case commercial formats such as .fbx. .obj, .xsi won't suffice because they don't support the necessary features. I have scenes which are facades with a shader applied to make the illusion of 3d on a 2d surface. .fbx doesn't support shaders, so converting those scenes will get the polygons to convert, but not the shaders - what good is that? Even if the shaders were rewritten for the target application, .fbx does not contain the necessary information to make the connection. Many formats are designed for editing, not archiving. They're also proprietary in nature making it a risky medium to store data long term. Anybody have the specs to the .fbx file format? thought so. File formats have shelf lives too. I think it's best to keep data in it's original format until you have a specific destination. Each time you migrate data it loses some of it's integrity. I'm not going to support my content indefinitely, but I am going to design a format which can properly archive it with enough information to reconstruct it in another application if a feature isn't directly supported/available. I can do that with Softimage|3D content because it's doesn't support complex data such a render passes, ICE trees, render trees, and so on. XSI is another beast and will be much more difficult to support in that regard. Matt - Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:57:20 +0100 From: Tim Leydecker bauero...@gmx.de Subject: Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016? To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Just to be clear, I don?t want to portray Adsk as evil, I am bitching about the extra hurdles involved in finding the service packs to a specific release?s version and making sure all files neccessary are downloaded and named properly. In my personal case, I can pretty savely assume Softimage 2010, 2012, 2014 version jumps, so that?s not so bad actually. It?s a bit more difficult for 3rd party renderer versions and the 32bit64bit jump for plugins like the sRGB nodes from Harry Bardak in some legacy projects. Anything 64bit I am also positive will most likely be fine, like Sven suggests (one also learns a bit about project structuring, my old stuff has more final_v003.var2 files than now...) In terms of general backup strategy, I also got bitten once, losing a drive when swapping machines and then having to rebuild that data from iterative backups on other drives. Not nice, tedious actually. I can recommend Beyond Compare, that worked great for me in putting together a working version of a project and even completely restructuring my files into project specific folder structures, weeding out duplicates and reducing the chance of missing files by collecting things into one master folder branched into apps, files, etc. I do have to check if my dongle is still working, thought. A virtual machine is a very good tip. There?s a change I have a full backup of a working system drive available. I used Drive Snapshot in the past but haven?t touched those backup files in years. To be honest, there?s not too much stuff I would be proud in showing off, maybe some snippets from my thesis would be worth being polished and put on display, after more than 10 years... but I doubt it... For the last couple of years, I will mostly have *.obj and *.fbx files plus *.psd map files as well as *.ztl and *.mud files, that stuff is pretty save to open with newer versions atm. Thanks for your thoughts, it?s a bit spooky to realize 10 years ago now also looks like 10 years ago... Cheers, tim Am 23.12.2014 um 10:36 schrieb Rob Wuijster: Just to add some thoughts on this... I started building virtual pc's for this 'occasion' some years ago, just to be on the safe side. I still have a Win95/98/NT/2000/XP virtual disk lying around with some 'critial' software installed, just to be able to open up that one program from years ago. Or to run some other stuff that's impossible in the newer version of Windows now. At some point I had to convert my virtual pc 'disks' to a new virtual pc program, but that was less hassle than doing all Matt described. ;-) I think we're all in the same situation at the moment. I also have a boat load of assets, created over the
Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016?
Matt, I have to ask. What could you possibly have from the Softimage 3D days that you'd want to recover? No cynicism, just genuinely curious. :) Even things that I created and thought were amazing back then, I could (and would) re-make in days and to a far higher standard with modern tools. It's like playing old computer games that you loved from the past. They're invariably shit. :) ...OK, except maybe Command and Conquer: Red Alert... I'll always have time for that (anyone who feels the same should head over to http://www.openra.net btw... ;) DAN On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Matt Lind speye...@hotmail.com wrote: Virtual PCs work for now, and so does keeping archives of files around for the interim. One problem you may run into is expiration date of your licenses. I ran into this problem with my older XSI licenses. While Softimage called them 'permanent' licenses, they're actually 10-13 year time bombs. They're called permanent because Softimage assumed nobody would need to exhume data that far into the future as a newer release of the software would be available for that purpose. That's great until there are no more new releases. In due time everybody will hit the same problem - what to do when you can no longer maintain the ecosystem? That's where I'm at now and why I'm writing an exporter. In my particular case commercial formats such as .fbx. .obj, .xsi won't suffice because they don't support the necessary features. I have scenes which are facades with a shader applied to make the illusion of 3d on a 2d surface. .fbx doesn't support shaders, so converting those scenes will get the polygons to convert, but not the shaders - what good is that? Even if the shaders were rewritten for the target application, .fbx does not contain the necessary information to make the connection. Many formats are designed for editing, not archiving. They're also proprietary in nature making it a risky medium to store data long term. Anybody have the specs to the .fbx file format? thought so. File formats have shelf lives too. I think it's best to keep data in it's original format until you have a specific destination. Each time you migrate data it loses some of it's integrity. I'm not going to support my content indefinitely, but I am going to design a format which can properly archive it with enough information to reconstruct it in another application if a feature isn't directly supported/available. I can do that with Softimage|3D content because it's doesn't support complex data such a render passes, ICE trees, render trees, and so on. XSI is another beast and will be much more difficult to support in that regard. Matt - Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:57:20 +0100 From: Tim Leydecker bauero...@gmx.de Subject: Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016? To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Just to be clear, I don?t want to portray Adsk as evil, I am bitching about the extra hurdles involved in finding the service packs to a specific release?s version and making sure all files neccessary are downloaded and named properly. In my personal case, I can pretty savely assume Softimage 2010, 2012, 2014 version jumps, so that?s not so bad actually. It?s a bit more difficult for 3rd party renderer versions and the 32bit64bit jump for plugins like the sRGB nodes from Harry Bardak in some legacy projects. Anything 64bit I am also positive will most likely be fine, like Sven suggests (one also learns a bit about project structuring, my old stuff has more final_v003.var2 files than now...) In terms of general backup strategy, I also got bitten once, losing a drive when swapping machines and then having to rebuild that data from iterative backups on other drives. Not nice, tedious actually. I can recommend Beyond Compare, that worked great for me in putting together a working version of a project and even completely restructuring my files into project specific folder structures, weeding out duplicates and reducing the chance of missing files by collecting things into one master folder branched into apps, files, etc. I do have to check if my dongle is still working, thought. A virtual machine is a very good tip. There?s a change I have a full backup of a working system drive available. I used Drive Snapshot in the past but haven?t touched those backup files in years. To be honest, there?s not too much stuff I would be proud in showing off, maybe some snippets from my thesis would be worth being polished and put on display, after more than 10 years... but I doubt it... For the last couple of years, I will mostly have *.obj and *.fbx files plus *.psd map files as well as *.ztl and *.mud files, that stuff is pretty save to open with newer versions atm. Thanks for your thoughts, it?s a bit spooky to realize 10 years ago now also looks like 10 years ago...
Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016?
Basically my entire art portfolio is in Softimage|3D. When the torch was passed from Softimage|3D to Softimage|XSI, I made the transition from animator to TD/programmer. I only did artwork in XSI until v3.0. Majority of the work I've done since has been scripting/programming and teaching. Once in a while I'll do some modeling or animating to prototype a tool/workflow or troubleshoot a problem brought to my attention by an artist, but that's about as far as that goes. Despite working in strictly technical positions for the past 12 years, employers still insist I provide a demo reel in job interviews. I need to keep that data around to show I have artistic talent with solid grasp of color, composition, timing, etc... and am not purely a technical nerd. The data may be old, but it has held up quite well over the years. Most of it is 3D made to look like 2D cel animation w toon ink/paint. As a result, it doesn't suffer the problem of looking dated based on the technologies available at the time. The other side of the issue is many employers don't take me seriously as a programmer candidate because I don't have my CS degree yet while ignoring my many years of field experience. By writing an exporter/importer to do such comprehensive work, it demonstrates I have a versatile skill set that separates me from other technical artists/TDs who are the more cut n' paste style hacky scripters, and also from some engineers who know bits n' bytes, but lack an understanding of production. It's not strictly about salvaging old data. Matt Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:56:59 +0200 From: Dan Yargici danyarg...@gmail.com Subject: Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016? To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Matt, I have to ask. What could you possibly have from the Softimage 3D days that you'd want to recover? No cynicism, just genuinely curious. :) Even things that I created and thought were amazing back then, I could (and would) re-make in days and to a far higher standard with modern tools. It's like playing old computer games that you loved from the past. They're invariably shit. :) ...OK, except maybe Command and Conquer: Red Alert... I'll always have time for that (anyone who feels the same should head over to http://www.openra.net btw... ;) DAN
Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016?
Interesting, thanks. DAN. On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Matt Lind speye...@hotmail.com wrote: Basically my entire art portfolio is in Softimage|3D. When the torch was passed from Softimage|3D to Softimage|XSI, I made the transition from animator to TD/programmer. I only did artwork in XSI until v3.0. Majority of the work I've done since has been scripting/programming and teaching. Once in a while I'll do some modeling or animating to prototype a tool/workflow or troubleshoot a problem brought to my attention by an artist, but that's about as far as that goes. Despite working in strictly technical positions for the past 12 years, employers still insist I provide a demo reel in job interviews. I need to keep that data around to show I have artistic talent with solid grasp of color, composition, timing, etc... and am not purely a technical nerd. The data may be old, but it has held up quite well over the years. Most of it is 3D made to look like 2D cel animation w toon ink/paint. As a result, it doesn't suffer the problem of looking dated based on the technologies available at the time. The other side of the issue is many employers don't take me seriously as a programmer candidate because I don't have my CS degree yet while ignoring my many years of field experience. By writing an exporter/importer to do such comprehensive work, it demonstrates I have a versatile skill set that separates me from other technical artists/TDs who are the more cut n' paste style hacky scripters, and also from some engineers who know bits n' bytes, but lack an understanding of production. It's not strictly about salvaging old data. Matt Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:56:59 +0200 From: Dan Yargici danyarg...@gmail.com Subject: Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016? To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Matt, I have to ask. What could you possibly have from the Softimage 3D days that you'd want to recover? No cynicism, just genuinely curious. :) Even things that I created and thought were amazing back then, I could (and would) re-make in days and to a far higher standard with modern tools. It's like playing old computer games that you loved from the past. They're invariably shit. :) ...OK, except maybe Command and Conquer: Red Alert... I'll always have time for that (anyone who feels the same should head over to http://www.openra.net btw... ;) DAN
Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016?
I don't have a library of softimage assets worth keeping, but if I did I would certainly make sure I have a copy of Softimage in a Windows 7 VM like you mention, which I would archive and keep a backup copy off-site . Never update that copy of Windows, never work with it except to get assets out. I worry that Softimage may not function at all in a few years, as some components it relies on might be broken in a Windows update where Microsoft favours security over compatibility. I have Softimage 2010 at home and it is already broken; every workflow that prompts for a file browser just hangs, and I can't fix it user-side, I've tried everything already short of re-installing the OS, which I won't do. The file format is binary and practically encrypted, so only the app can load those files. Worse, there is a design flaw whereby the app can crash if a required plugin is not installed or has a problem while loading a scene, then there is no way to load the scene. Safe keeping the installers is no security, they may not run at all in the future, being tangled in microsoft MSI installer tech and other things. Older 32-bit Softmage installers already don't run because they have a 16-bit component which won't run on 64-bit Windows. Now the trick is finding a VM product that you can trust will continue to work for 10 years. I'm not sure if I trust Virtual PC to still be around in the future. On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 4:36 AM, Rob Wuijster r...@casema.nl wrote: Just to add some thoughts on this... I started building virtual pc's for this 'occasion' some years ago, just to be on the safe side. I still have a Win95/98/NT/2000/XP virtual disk lying around with some 'critial' software installed, just to be able to open up that one program from years ago. Or to run some other stuff that's impossible in the newer version of Windows now. At some point I had to convert my virtual pc 'disks' to a new virtual pc program, but that was less hassle than doing all Matt described. ;-) I think we're all in the same situation at the moment. I also have a boat load of assets, created over the years going back to Softimage 3.0. All neatly packaged in a separate project as scenes or models. All shaded and textured, ready to go. The more 'beefy' assets are now models linked to a Arnold .ass file for quick handling and rendering. At some point we sadly have to leave Softimage behind, so what to do with all these assets? Depending on what's next, there's probably a slow conversion to this new 3D application. Or conversion to .obj or .fbx for longer, more app agnostic storage. For me, having the virtuals pc's/software lying around is the easiest solution at the moment. How this all will play out in the next years is another story ;-) cheers, and happy holidays to all! Rob
Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016?
Point noted, but I wouldn't use Softimage 2010 as a benchmark because it was a poor release full of temperamental glitches and regressions. I recently installed Softimage 7.5 on windows 7 64-bit so I could review the SI3D importer, and have not experienced any of the problems you mention. My file browsers work as expected. The legacy dotXSI importer crashes on import of data, not during file browsing - but that's an entirely different issue. You might want to reconsider the idea of re-installing your OS as it sounds like something is amiss. If I had to pick a version(s) for maintaining old data it would be: Softimage 2014 SP2 Softimage 2015 SP1 Softimage 7.5 - 32 bit (as last resort - for SI3D compatibility) and for legacy data pre-ICE: Softimage|XSI 5.11 avoid at all costs: Softimage|XSI 6.x Softimage 2010x Any other version and you're asking for problems somewhere along the line - many of which you cannot see as an end user until you try to get your data out. Many versions have problems with geometry and cluster integrity. Matt Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 03:43:32 -0800 Subject: Re: How do you guys make sure XSI files and Softimage 7.5+ files will open in 2016? To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com I don't have a library of softimage assets worth keeping, but if I did I would certainly make sure I have a copy of Softimage in a Windows 7 VM like you mention, which I would archive and keep a backup copy off-site . Never update that copy of Windows, never work with it except to get assets out. I worry that Softimage may not function at all in a few years, as some components it relies on might be broken in a Windows update where Microsoft favours security over compatibility. I have Softimage 2010 at home and it is already broken; every workflow that prompts for a file browser just hangs, and I can't fix it user-side, I've tried everything already short of re-installing the OS, which I won't do. The file format is binary and practically encrypted, so only the app can load those files. Worse, there is a design flaw whereby the app can crash if a required plugin is not installed or has a problem while loading a scene, then there is no way to load the scene. Safe keeping the installers is no security, they may not run at all in the future, being tangled in microsoft MSI installer tech and other things. Older 32-bit Softmage installers already don't run because they have a 16-bit component which won't run on 64-bit Windows. Now the trick is finding a VM product that you can trust will continue to work for 10 years. I'm not sure if I trust Virtual PC to still be around in the future.
