Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 20:59:43 -, Christos Zoulas wrote: > >> Thanks uwe! Are you planning to upstream all these changes? > > > >This is our mdocified bin/awk.1, upstream is dist/awk.1 that is > >-man-old, so I'm not sure how to proceed. Also most of the changes I > >made are strictly mdoc related. POSIX has quite a bit more elaborate > >awk man page that spells out many details, importing some more of that > >might be good but it's somewhat heavy, prescriptive prose and requires > >some editing for better readibility, IMHO - not something I feel > >qualified to do. > > Ok thanks. I will check with upstream on replacing theirs with ours. Not without some editorial efforts. OpenBSD has their own additions to the man page, e.g. documenting that literal space as FS value (the default) is magic, etc. It would be nice to collate those. I don't have a fresh FreBSD tree handy to check their version. -uwe
re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
Christos Zoulas writes: > In article <20220705184003.aa082f...@cvs.netbsd.org>, > Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: > >-=-=-=-=-=- > > > >Module Name: src > >Committed By:uwe > >Date:Tue Jul 5 18:40:03 UTC 2022 > > > >Modified Files: > > src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 > > > >Log Message: > >awk(1): consistent Capitalization. > > > > Thanks uwe! Are you planning to upstream all these changes? this version is our mandoc. the upstream version is old mdoc macros and you're the source of the original non-dist/ awk.1 :-) revision 1.1 date: 2010-08-26 07:57:16 -0700; author: christos; state: Exp; awk glue (there's no vendor branch for this file etc.) .mrg.
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
In article , Valery Ushakov wrote: >On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 20:20:09 -, Christos Zoulas wrote: > >> In article <20220705184003.aa082f...@cvs.netbsd.org>, >> Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: >> >-=-=-=-=-=- >> > >> >Module Name:src >> >Committed By: uwe >> >Date: Tue Jul 5 18:40:03 UTC 2022 >> > >> >Modified Files: >> >src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 >> > >> >Log Message: >> >awk(1): consistent Capitalization. >> >> Thanks uwe! Are you planning to upstream all these changes? > >This is our mdocified bin/awk.1, upstream is dist/awk.1 that is >-man-old, so I'm not sure how to proceed. Also most of the changes I >made are strictly mdoc related. POSIX has quite a bit more elaborate >awk man page that spells out many details, importing some more of that >might be good but it's somewhat heavy, prescriptive prose and requires >some editing for better readibility, IMHO - not something I feel >qualified to do. Ok thanks. I will check with upstream on replacing theirs with ours. christos
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 20:20:09 -, Christos Zoulas wrote: > In article <20220705184003.aa082f...@cvs.netbsd.org>, > Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: > >-=-=-=-=-=- > > > >Module Name: src > >Committed By:uwe > >Date:Tue Jul 5 18:40:03 UTC 2022 > > > >Modified Files: > > src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 > > > >Log Message: > >awk(1): consistent Capitalization. > > Thanks uwe! Are you planning to upstream all these changes? This is our mdocified bin/awk.1, upstream is dist/awk.1 that is -man-old, so I'm not sure how to proceed. Also most of the changes I made are strictly mdoc related. POSIX has quite a bit more elaborate awk man page that spells out many details, importing some more of that might be good but it's somewhat heavy, prescriptive prose and requires some editing for better readibility, IMHO - not something I feel qualified to do. PS: $ nroff -C -man-old man/1/charon Hashtag TrueStory, hashtag NewOptimism -uwe
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
In article <20220705184003.aa082f...@cvs.netbsd.org>, Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: >-=-=-=-=-=- > >Module Name: src >Committed By: uwe >Date: Tue Jul 5 18:40:03 UTC 2022 > >Modified Files: > src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 > >Log Message: >awk(1): consistent Capitalization. > Thanks uwe! Are you planning to upstream all these changes? Best, christos
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
Am 05.07.2022 um 02:16 schrieb Valery Ushakov:
Posix has the echo example as:
BEGIN {
for (i = 1; i < ARGC; ++i)
printf("%s%s", ARGV[i], i==ARGC-1?"\n":" ")
}
which I would still consider ugly :). I would rather use instead:
BEGIN { for (i = 1; i < ARGC; ++i) $i = ARGV[i]; print }
that, as a bonus, demonstrates $var field references (that the current
man page doesn't mention at all) and the magic $0 "reassembly".
Now that looks clean and idiomatic.
Anyway, I was wrong about POSIX - I somehow managed to screw up my
search and missed the passage that specifies it:
If an awk program consists of only actions with the pattern BEGIN,
and the BEGIN action contains no getline function, awk shall exit
without reading its input when the last statement in the last BEGIN
action is executed. If an awk program consists of only actions with
the pattern END or only actions with the patterns BEGIN and END, the
input shall be read before the statements in the END actions are
executed.
Hmmm, strange that we both missed this part on the first reading, even
though it seems obvious now. I remember having searched for BEGIN,
which would have led me to this paragraph, but I somehow skipped it when
trying to prove my point.
Roland
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 20:06:45 +0200, Roland Illig wrote:
> Am 04.07.2022 um 13:14 schrieb Valery Ushakov:
> > On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 08:04:57 +0200, Roland Illig wrote:
> >
> > > 04.07.2022 01:54:16 Valery Ushakov :
> > > > On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 00:07:23 +0200, Roland Illig wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Am 03.07.2022 um 21:55 schrieb Valery Ushakov:
> > > > > > On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 10:56:22 +, Roland Illig wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Module Name: src
> > > > > > > Committed By: rillig
> > > > > > > Date: Sun Jul 3 10:56:22 UTC 2022
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Modified Files:
> > > > > > > src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Log Message:
> > > > > > > awk.1: remove trailing space in output of 'echo' example program
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is cure worse than the desease. Please revert.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why is it worse?
> > > >
> > > > It's ugly
> > >
> > > Why is it ugly?
> > >
> > > > and complicated (for an example),
> > >
> > > Why is it complicated? It's still only 3 lines of code.
> > >
> > > > it obscures the point this example tries to make.
> > >
> > > What is this (single?) point this example tries to make? To me, it
> > > was how to write a BEGIN program that uses ARGV, and my rewritten
> > > code still illustrates this.
> >
> > You have turned a trivial for loop that requires no mental bandwidth
> > to skim over into a code review errand with complex case analysis and
> > ugly inverted 1 < ARGC to boot.
>
> I intentionally wrote '1 < ARGC' instead of 'ARGC > 1' to make the
> condition as close as possible to the condition in the 'for' loop. If
> it weren't for this symmetry, I would of course have written it in the
> subject-first manner.
[...]
> > but this case is not
> > about code doing something specified with aesthetic considerations
> > being secondary to its actually doing the job. Here taste is an
> > important factor b/c it's not code, but a man page - a literally work
> > really.
>
> That's exactly my point. The manual page is our reference
> documentation, and as such, it should demonstrate and teach best
> practices. Presenting a program that is _almost correct_ misses this
> point, and I don't want to see any code derived from an _almost correct_
> example. Mixing such code with other _almost correct_ example code will
> quickly lead to programs with bugs everywhere.
>
> An example for this would be the common usage of functions,
> which really many people get wrong, either by reading sloppily produced
> teaching material or incomplete documentation or by copying code
> snippets that seem to work.
So this needs the symmetry with the next line and the reader needs to
register and process that symmetry. Then the fun part comes, the
reader needs to match the two bodies (if and for) and figure out if
and how they differ and find that visually elusive whitespace. And
this has already snowballed into quite a code review errand.
ctype and the C integer promotion rules that it touches (often
inappropriately) go to some pretty dark corners of the C standard.
Proper examples of correct use are essential for that man page and
those examples are kinda the focal point of it.
Here the point of the example is a BEGIN-only program that doesn't
process any input. Any content of that BEGIN action is rather
unimportant, a kind of "lorem ipsum" filler almost. So turning it
into an exercise in correct re-implementation of echo(1) draws
attention to the wrong thing. Consider that extra space in the output
to be poetic license.
Posix has the echo example as:
BEGIN {
for (i = 1; i < ARGC; ++i)
printf("%s%s", ARGV[i], i==ARGC-1?"\n":" ")
}
which I would still consider ugly :). I would rather use instead:
BEGIN { for (i = 1; i < ARGC; ++i) $i = ARGV[i]; print }
that, as a bonus, demonstrates $var field references (that the current
man page doesn't mention at all) and the magic $0 "reassembly".
> > PS: BTW, you also eliminated the "exit" at the end of the BEGIN
> > action. This is not specified by POSIX and happens to work on all
> > major three - nawk, mawk, gawk, though only gawk seems to document
> > this and only in the info file, not its man page (though its man page
> > has exampes that rely on this behaviour).
> >
> > E.g. solaris /usr/bin/awk will still wait for input to consume and
> > discard it.
>
> Ouch, thanks for telling me. I was so sure that POSIX had specified
> this that I didn't bother to look it up again. Now I did, and I will
> revert my changes.
Your g/c'ing the "exit" actually piqued my curiosity, b/c that's not
how I remeber my awk. I verified that 2.9BSD has awk that always
processes its input so that explains why I remember it that way. Of
course it doesn't support ARGC/ARGV.
Anyway, I was wrong about POSIX - I somehow managed to screw up my
search and missed the passage that specifies it:
If an awk program consists of only actions with
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
Am 04.07.2022 um 13:14 schrieb Valery Ushakov: On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 08:04:57 +0200, Roland Illig wrote: 04.07.2022 01:54:16 Valery Ushakov : On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 00:07:23 +0200, Roland Illig wrote: Am 03.07.2022 um 21:55 schrieb Valery Ushakov: On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 10:56:22 +, Roland Illig wrote: Module Name: src Committed By: rillig Date: Sun Jul 3 10:56:22 UTC 2022 Modified Files: src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 Log Message: awk.1: remove trailing space in output of 'echo' example program This is cure worse than the desease. Please revert. Why is it worse? It's ugly Why is it ugly? and complicated (for an example), Why is it complicated? It's still only 3 lines of code. it obscures the point this example tries to make. What is this (single?) point this example tries to make? To me, it was how to write a BEGIN program that uses ARGV, and my rewritten code still illustrates this. You have turned a trivial for loop that requires no mental bandwidth to skim over into a code review errand with complex case analysis and ugly inverted 1 < ARGC to boot. I intentionally wrote '1 < ARGC' instead of 'ARGC > 1' to make the condition as close as possible to the condition in the 'for' loop. If it weren't for this symmetry, I would of course have written it in the subject-first manner. I realize this is de gustibus and if you don't see this new code that way I probably cannot make you see it that way, That's a tough assumption. I precisely asked 'Why' because I couldn't guess your reasons for calling this code bad and ugly, and I wanted to understand them. but this case is not about code doing something specified with aesthetic considerations being secondary to its actually doing the job. Here taste is an important factor b/c it's not code, but a man page - a literally work really. That's exactly my point. The manual page is our reference documentation, and as such, it should demonstrate and teach best practices. Presenting a program that is _almost correct_ misses this point, and I don't want to see any code derived from an _almost correct_ example. Mixing such code with other _almost correct_ example code will quickly lead to programs with bugs everywhere. An example for this would be the common usage of functions, which really many people get wrong, either by reading sloppily produced teaching material or incomplete documentation or by copying code snippets that seem to work. Well, what *was* your goal? To be "technically correct, the best kind of correct"? Yes, exactly that. The comment above that snippet mentions echo(1), which does not print a space after its last argument, so I chose to make this example snippet implement this as well. After all, it was just one more line of code, demonstrating an 'if' condition, something that's not yet in the other examples. I'm pretty sure that whoever wrote that example did know how to write a "proper" echo in awk, but chose not to deliberately. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know who wrote that example and when, and what the motivation was back then. That argument of "did know" does not hold always though. PS: BTW, you also eliminated the "exit" at the end of the BEGIN action. This is not specified by POSIX and happens to work on all major three - nawk, mawk, gawk, though only gawk seems to document this and only in the info file, not its man page (though its man page has exampes that rely on this behaviour). E.g. solaris /usr/bin/awk will still wait for input to consume and discard it. Ouch, thanks for telling me. I was so sure that POSIX had specified this that I didn't bother to look it up again. Now I did, and I will revert my changes. Roland
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 22:55:48 +0300, Valery Ushakov wrote: > On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 10:56:22 +, Roland Illig wrote: > > > Module Name:src > > Committed By: rillig > > Date: Sun Jul 3 10:56:22 UTC 2022 > > > > Modified Files: > > src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 > > > > Log Message: > > awk.1: remove trailing space in output of 'echo' example program > > This is cure worse than the desease. Please revert. PS: BTW, you also eliminated the "exit" at the end of the BEGIN action. This is not specified by POSIX and happens to work on all major three - nawk, mawk, gawk, though only gawk seems to document this and only in the info file, not its man page (though its man page has exampes that rely on this behaviour). E.g. solaris /usr/bin/awk will still wait for input to consume and discard it. -uwe
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 08:04:57 +0200, Roland Illig wrote: > 04.07.2022 01:54:16 Valery Ushakov : > > On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 00:07:23 +0200, Roland Illig wrote: > > > >> Am 03.07.2022 um 21:55 schrieb Valery Ushakov: > >>> On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 10:56:22 +, Roland Illig wrote: > >>> > Module Name: src > Committed By: rillig > Date: Sun Jul 3 10:56:22 UTC 2022 > > Modified Files: > src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 > > Log Message: > awk.1: remove trailing space in output of 'echo' example program > >>> > >>> This is cure worse than the desease. Please revert. > >> > >> Why is it worse? > > > > It's ugly > > Why is it ugly? > > > and complicated (for an example), > > Why is it complicated? It's still only 3 lines of code. > > > it obscures the point this example tries to make. > > What is this (single?) point this example tries to make? To me, it > was how to write a BEGIN program that uses ARGV, and my rewritten > code still illustrates this. You have turned a trivial for loop that requires no mental bandwidth to skim over into a code review errand with complex case analysis and ugly inverted 1 < ARGC to boot. I realize this is de gustibus and if you don't see this new code that way I probably cannot make you see it that way, but this case is not about code doing something specified with aesthetic considerations being secondary to its actually doing the job. Here taste is an important factor b/c it's not code, but a man page - a literally work really. > > The point is not to write a perfect echo(1) clone in awk. > > If that had been my goal, I would have implemented the -n option as > well, at which point the code would have grown large enough to be > extracted into a separate file. I didn't do that though. Well, what *was* your goal? To be "technically correct, the best kind of correct"? I'm pretty sure that whoever wrote that example did know how to write a "proper" echo in awk, but chose not to deliberately. -uwe
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
04.07.2022 01:54:16 Valery Ushakov : > On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 00:07:23 +0200, Roland Illig wrote: > >> Am 03.07.2022 um 21:55 schrieb Valery Ushakov: >>> On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 10:56:22 +, Roland Illig wrote: >>> Module Name: src Committed By: rillig Date: Sun Jul 3 10:56:22 UTC 2022 Modified Files: src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 Log Message: awk.1: remove trailing space in output of 'echo' example program >>> >>> This is cure worse than the desease. Please revert. >> >> Why is it worse? > > It's ugly Why is it ugly? > and complicated (for an example), Why is it complicated? It's still only 3 lines of code. > it obscures the point this example tries to make. What is this (single?) point this example tries to make? To me, it was how to write a BEGIN program that uses ARGV, and my rewritten code still illustrates this. > The point is not to write a perfect echo(1) clone in awk. If that had been my goal, I would have implemented the -n option as well, at which point the code would have grown large enough to be extracted into a separate file. I didn't do that though. Roland
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
On Mon, Jul 04, 2022 at 00:07:23 +0200, Roland Illig wrote: > Am 03.07.2022 um 21:55 schrieb Valery Ushakov: > > On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 10:56:22 +, Roland Illig wrote: > > > > > Module Name: src > > > Committed By: rillig > > > Date: Sun Jul 3 10:56:22 UTC 2022 > > > > > > Modified Files: > > > src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 > > > > > > Log Message: > > > awk.1: remove trailing space in output of 'echo' example program > > > > This is cure worse than the desease. Please revert. > > Why is it worse? It's ugly, and complicated (for an example), and it obscures the point this example tries to make. The point is not to write a perfect echo(1) clone in awk. -uwe
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
Am 03.07.2022 um 21:55 schrieb Valery Ushakov: On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 10:56:22 +, Roland Illig wrote: Module Name:src Committed By: rillig Date: Sun Jul 3 10:56:22 UTC 2022 Modified Files: src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 Log Message: awk.1: remove trailing space in output of 'echo' example program This is cure worse than the desease. Please revert. Why is it worse?
Re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 10:56:22 +, Roland Illig wrote: > Module Name: src > Committed By: rillig > Date: Sun Jul 3 10:56:22 UTC 2022 > > Modified Files: > src/external/historical/nawk/bin: awk.1 > > Log Message: > awk.1: remove trailing space in output of 'echo' example program This is cure worse than the desease. Please revert. -uwe
re: CVS commit: src/external/historical/nawk/bin
Module Name: src Committed By: christos Date: Sun Dec 12 19:01:04 UTC 2010 Modified Files: src/external/historical/nawk/bin: Makefile Log Message: Don't build awk.info because matt removed it. oh, that was a mistake then. it should have been moved into the external gpl directory, i guess. i'll fix it. .mrg.
