[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
Le vendredi 14 janvier 2005 à 20:48 +0100, Benoit PAPILLAULT a écrit : > SuperDindon a écrit : > cannot remove it anymore! Now, some companies are enforcing their > intellectual property right just to get some money... even if you do not have much to give them, well, just imagine you've got to find a lawyer then make the trip to America... (like it happened to Guillermito for a different case) > So, like baud123 said, i think it is the right time to join our effort > to make a polite request to Thomson (holder of the IP rights) to change > their license. yep, I can't see why they would say no, let them explain. > At least, it should be made redistributable so your package can be hum not really sufficient, permission to distribute and/or modify without source code (if they don't want to give it) is the least to obtain : this way the firmware can be reverse-engineered for interoperability sake ;-) which is still legal in France AFAIK (IANAL) > legal. The best would be some DFSG-compliant license to have the driver > in main distributions (including GNU/Debian). But that would mean that > Thomson has to release the source code as well which is a decision > beyong a simple license change. not having source code is clearly not satisfying to debug / enhance but that may be Thomson's choice :-( In our case, recently ADI has added functionalities to the firmware : without documentation (specifications and user doc) and without the source code we have to play guess/errors/correct/other errors game :-( Fortunately, we have some feedback both from ADI/Sagem but they have not decided (yet) to give us documentation currently internal to ADI, for us to understand how to make it work correctly. > So far, I'm not a lawyer myself, but at least I can ask and try to get > in touch with Thomson to discuss that issue. Ideas on the process? http://dev.eagle-usb.org/wakka.php?wiki=DeveloppementGPL This is a negociation, so it's better to prepare to argue : registering to debian-legal ML helps understand the intricacies, re-reading the GPL too... Prepare what you want to obtain and be precise with problems currently encountered that would be solved automagically if they were to accept to go GPL. Our wiki is opened to anyone who wants to contribute, just register with ParametresUtilisateur link so that we can follow who adds what (select a WikiName and sorry for all the french). For example, use : http://dev.eagle-usb.org/wakka.php?wiki=DevelopmentSpeedtouchGPL I reused what FlashCode did with Aful http://www.aful.org/faqs/FAQConstructeurs.en.html and provided some background : http://dev.eagle-usb.org/wakka.php?wiki=BackGroundGPL You'll have to identify a contact at Thomson (check his/her position and ask his/her opinion about GPL), then if that's the right person, convince him/her ;-) First answer may (will) be no. We have to understand the reasons why, in order to continue, hence a blank no is not suficent... Involving technical / marketing then legal is necessary (in that order, it's easier). If you have cooperative and efficient contacts at APRIL or AFUL or anyone knowing FSF position, they may be of help. We chose to have our discussions with ADI publicly (took time to convince them...) so that it can benefit us all. Have a look at http://wiki.eagle-usb.org/wakka.php?wiki=FollowUpADI (I may have forgotten some threads, check our archive too and add what's missing). The minimum to obtain is a private ML that will be published afterwards (for example after 3 months) where people contributing are identified. I hope it will work. @++ Ben'. aka baud123 Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
- Original Message - From: "Benoit PAPILLAULT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 8:48 PM Subject: [speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full [ .. ] > > So, like baud123 said, i think it is the right time to join our effort > to make a polite request to Thomson (holder of the IP rights) to change > their license. > > At least, it should be made redistributable so your package can be > legal. The best would be some DFSG-compliant license to have the driver > in main distributions (including GNU/Debian). But that would mean that > Thomson has to release the source code as well which is a decision > beyong a simple license change. > > So far, I'm not a lawyer myself, but at least I can ask and try to get > in touch with Thomson to discuss that issue. Ideas on the process? > > Benoit PAPILLAULT > I had send a request at Speedtouch Helpdesk from speedtouch.com. You need a modem serial number to fill the form. Or I can send you the mail address from Speedtouch Helpdesk. My question was not only a request to release the firmware under the GPL but to have the right to make the consumer life simplier by allowing firmware redistribution. The first answer was classical : "First of all we do not support linux systems officially All I can do is give you a link: http://sourceforge.net/projects/speedtouchconf/ http://speedtouchconf.sourceforge.net/ " After some exchanges wich have taken some time (for example, Linux support is written in http://www.speedtouch.com/prod330.htm ), my last mail was summarised by Thomson with an except taken from Bewan license that I have send to Thomson and a recall of some arguments I have send: "In addition, as a special exception, BeWAN systems gives permission to link the code of this program with the modem SW library (modem_ant_PCI.o, modem_ant_USB.o), and distribute linked combinations including the two. You are also given permission to redistribute the modem SW library (modem_ant_PCI.o, modem_ant_USB.o) with the rest of the code. ..." This was my arguments summarised by Thomson: "Those licences allow direct use of those modems in Linux distribution supporting those hardwares and do not require from the basic user to discover Linux by starting with some criptic commands. In this case, you simply can install your driver and connect just after. We are far from this state with speedtouch usb and it is only because users needs were not the primary goal of Thomson ." The answer was (it has taken some time to be send the 17/03/2004) "After inquiring at the Thomson Engineering department the position with regards to Linux unfortunately did not change: Thomson Multimedia supports the Open Source Movement, but feels it has to protect it's Intellectual property. Therefore, the drivers are only partially Open Source. There is a open source kernel-module (GPL) and a closed source management application. The management application is distributed as a binary and contains the firmware. " Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
SuperDindon a écrit : [cut] >>>for now i prefer waiting that Alcatel remind me that it isn't legal [cut] > no, my package isn't only an "official package including firmwares", it > brings up many other features. > also only the precompiled package for i386 which is hosted on my > personal page doesn't respect Alcatel license, the source package is > completely GPLed I think you are not used to method used by legal people :-). Considering the Alcatel case, I receive an immediate message from them just after uploading the firmware to my web site. They were asking to remove the firmware which i did. Now, not all companies behave nice. I recently received an email from Sun's lawyer asking me to correct my web site to comply with their Java trademark policies. Again, it was quite a polite request. But now, consider that since your package is online, it will be cached by google or http://www.archive.org/web/web.php or some other site. It now means that your package is no longer in your control and that you cannot remove it anymore! Now, some companies are enforcing their intellectual property right just to get some money... So, like baud123 said, i think it is the right time to join our effort to make a polite request to Thomson (holder of the IP rights) to change their license. At least, it should be made redistributable so your package can be legal. The best would be some DFSG-compliant license to have the driver in main distributions (including GNU/Debian). But that would mean that Thomson has to release the source code as well which is a decision beyong a simple license change. So far, I'm not a lawyer myself, but at least I can ask and try to get in touch with Thomson to discuss that issue. Ideas on the process? Benoit PAPILLAULT Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
Le 14.01.2005 21:48:21, Benoît Audouard a écrit : > SuperDindon a dit : > > > > yes i know about this isn't legal ( yet, i hope so ), but if i > remove > > the precompiled package, then the first interest of my package, its > > simplicity, will be partly lost > > if it is not legal, you cannot knowingly upload it on debian > repository > first step first : obtain a decent license to distribute > > > for now i prefer waiting that Alcatel remind me that it isn't legal > so > > i'll do remove the package including their firmwares > > so you'll be back at step 0, your package becomes unusable ? no, my package isn't only an "official package including firmwares", it brings up many other features. also only the precompiled package for i386 which is hosted on my personal page doesn't respect Alcatel license, the source package is completely GPLed > I think that debian uploader will remind it to you before Alcatel... > post-sarge it will even be stricter : "binary blob" end up in > non-free, > the driver in contrib, so chances are that they are not even on > shipped CD > :'-( yes of course it won't be ever uploaded on Debian pools, it isn't my goal, the official package is more more adapted to be released by Debian mainteners ( not completely free, and also abusive use of Debconf ), but mine is more more user-friendly > > Mmm how to download firmwares without any internet connection? > through RTC modem, through a LAN, at an internet cafe (then on usb > key, > CDROM, floppy disk...). That's the problem of the egg and the chicken > ;-) > You forgot : without being connected, how to find useful > documentation, > how to google, how to obtain support on forums or IRC... > his proposal was about the package itself. Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
SuperDindon a dit : > > yes i know about this isn't legal ( yet, i hope so ), but if i remove > the precompiled package, then the first interest of my package, its > simplicity, will be partly lost if it is not legal, you cannot knowingly upload it on debian repository first step first : obtain a decent license to distribute > for now i prefer waiting that Alcatel remind me that it isn't legal so > i'll do remove the package including their firmwares so you'll be back at step 0, your package becomes unusable ? I think that debian uploader will remind it to you before Alcatel... post-sarge it will even be stricter : "binary blob" end up in non-free, the driver in contrib, so chances are that they are not even on shipped CD :'-( > Mmm how to download firmwares without any internet connection? through RTC modem, through a LAN, at an internet cafe (then on usb key, CDROM, floppy disk...). That's the problem of the egg and the chicken ;-) You forgot : without being connected, how to find useful documentation, how to google, how to obtain support on forums or IRC... > Yes their license is is very restrictive and is a real problem to > promote their modems under Linux yep : where the end-user simply expects it to work, even the install is a problem ! Next, comes configuration which can be tricky (and the end-user is not yet connected...). Though, I've got no answer for Alcatel or Thomson either, as I'm nearly convinced it would cost them nothing to provide us with specifications, some distribution rights. Furthermore, I do not see either reasons for having this position, I can't see what they would lose to release freely their firmware (apart avoiding to lose some customers that are fed up with not-immediately-working modems and just buy an ethernet one). So it may be time to convince them that now is perhaps time to examine - once again - the possibility to change license for a free one. @++ Ben'. aka baud123 Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
Le 14.01.2005 15:19:23, Richard van der Hoff a écrit : > ... > > So the debian package should probably download the firmware to the > right > place for you at installation (after asking you, of course!). I > remember > seeing other packages which do this, though they currently escape my > memory. > > ... > Mmm how to download firmwares without any internet connection? Yes their license is is very restrictive and is a real problem to promote their modems under Linux Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
Le 14.01.2005 11:50:01, Benoit PAPILLAULT a écrit : > ... > yes i know about this isn't legal ( yet, i hope so ), but if i remove the precompiled package, then the first interest of my package, its simplicity, will be partly lost for now i prefer waiting that Alcatel remind me that it isn't legal so i'll do remove the package including their firmwares Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
Gilles Espinasse a dit : > > Selon Richard van der Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> Benoit PAPILLAULT wrote: >> > SuperDindon a écrit : >> >>Hi, >> > [cut] >> >>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/superdindon/speedtouch-mod/ >> > [cut] >> > >> >>i hope that it'll make many people to immigrate from Windows, before >> that those sucking software patents stave off Linux to grow up >> > [cut] >> > Like I said earlier, you cannot redistribute the firmare. See clause >> 4 of their license: >> ... >> > - ask them to change the License (why not since they provided the >> firwmare separately only for Linux users). >> >> somebody probably ought to at least ask them - if you don't ask, you >> don't get! >> > At the time we was forced to load windows or MAC driver to extract the > Rev 4.00 firmwares, I have ask with no result (or maybe a package with > separate firmwares). Would you have some history of Thomson's answers ? For those interested : at eagle-usb.org, we are in the process of "asking" too for eagle-usb driver (ADSL USB sagem fast 800... et al), our contact being Analog Devices Inc, for the chipset. Well, it takes some time... their legal departement is having a look at it : our problem seems "easier" though, as they are willing to let distribute their firmware+DSPcode by anybody, the main issues being that currently no license is identified... So we asked for GPL. You may have a look at http://dev.eagle-usb.org/wakka.php?wiki=DeveloppementGPL and our needs : http://dev.eagle-usb.org/wakka.php?wiki=RequirementsEagleUsbGPL We tried to imagine what would make them make the move : http://dev.eagle-usb.org/wakka.php?wiki=WhyWouldAnalogReleaseSourceGPL Maybe we've missed some good arguments, any comment is welcome to help, or questions if the text is not clear so that we can make it as precise and complete as possible. Regards Ben'. aka baud123 Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
Selon Richard van der Hoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Benoit PAPILLAULT wrote: > > SuperDindon a écrit : > > > >>Hi, > > > > [cut] > > > >>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/superdindon/speedtouch-mod/ > > > > [cut] > > > >>i hope that it'll make many people to immigrate from Windows, before that > >>those sucking software patents stave off Linux to grow up > > > > [cut] > > > > Like I said earlier, you cannot redistribute the firmare. See clause 4 > > of their license: > > ... > > So the debian package should probably download the firmware to the right > place for you at installation (after asking you, of course!). I remember > seeing other packages which do this, though they currently escape my memory. > > Incidentally, my feeling having made the upgrade to kernel 2.6.10 is > that the kernel firmware loading is so vastly superior to modem_run that > any package based on modem_run would be misguided. (Others have said it, > but thanks Duncan and co for all your work on it!) > > > - ask them to change the License (why not since they provided the > > firwmare separately only for Linux users). > > somebody probably ought to at least ask them - if you don't ask, you > don't get! > At the time we was forced to load windows or MAC driver to extract the Rev 4.00 firmwares, I have ask with no result (or maybe a package with separate firmwares). Gilles Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
Benoit PAPILLAULT wrote: > SuperDindon a écrit : > >>Hi, > > [cut] > >>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/superdindon/speedtouch-mod/ > > [cut] > >>i hope that it'll make many people to immigrate from Windows, before that >>those sucking software patents stave off Linux to grow up > > [cut] > > Like I said earlier, you cannot redistribute the firmare. See clause 4 > of their license: ... So the debian package should probably download the firmware to the right place for you at installation (after asking you, of course!). I remember seeing other packages which do this, though they currently escape my memory. Incidentally, my feeling having made the upgrade to kernel 2.6.10 is that the kernel firmware loading is so vastly superior to modem_run that any package based on modem_run would be misguided. (Others have said it, but thanks Duncan and co for all your work on it!) > - ask them to change the License (why not since they provided the > firwmare separately only for Linux users). somebody probably ought to at least ask them - if you don't ask, you don't get! Cheers Richard Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[speedtouch] Re: New Debian package, speedtouch-full
SuperDindon a écrit : > Hi, [cut] > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/superdindon/speedtouch-mod/ [cut] > i hope that it'll make many people to immigrate from Windows, before that > those sucking software patents stave off Linux to grow up [cut] Like I said earlier, you cannot redistribute the firmare. See clause 4 of their license: "4. Limitations on Transfer. The Developer will not sell, rent, lease or otherwise transfer any or all of the Software, the Documentation or any copies thereof, without the prior written consent of Thomson. The Developer will not sublicense, assign, delegate, rent, lease or otherwise transfer any or all of its rights under this Agreement." The only way to redistribute the firmware is either : - ask the "prior written consent of Thomson" (but that will apply only to you) - ask them to change the License (why not since they provided the firwmare separately only for Linux users). Anyway, I will examine your changes since you said they are better than the official package :-). [You can discuss your enhancement on #speedtouch as well]. Benoit PAPILLAULT Liste de diffusion modem ALCATEL SpeedTouch USB Pour se désinscrire : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
