RE: 02 storage
Greg, Jim touched on many of the issues here that go WAAY beyond the responsibility of a sprinkler contractor. I'm not trying to diminish anyone's credibility or ability but there are a lot of issues which need to be addressed by several parties to be sure this building is code compliant before you even turn the first pipe wrench. I'm not sure either where the 12,000 sq. ft is coming from other than for an S-1 storage occupancy you have to have sprinklers if you exceed that sq. ft. per the IBC. Maybe he have meant Cubic Ft since with 4 control areas that's the most he could get and not be forced into the H-3 occupancy. And the high hazard sprinkler system? What's that? If you apply NFPA 55, it's only looking for OH2 at 3,000 sf as base line. Either way the tenant isn't getting 20,000 cf in the warehouse without it going to an H-3 which then drives a whole bunch of other requirements for other disciplines that can get quite pricey. Storage occupancies are always a lot of fun, but it becomes more difficult when the areas have been assigned the wrong occupancy or the architect has not considered the actual materials used and stored within. Then again, the owner may have forgotten to tell the architect what was going in there during the design phase. No matter what, this all needs to be thrown back to the architect to be sure the area's occupancies are properly defined based on code definitions and use. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jim Davidson Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: 02 storage What is the occupancy that is moving into the building? Per the IBC Table 307.1(1) you are permitted to have 3,000 cubic ft of oxidizing gas in a facility any amount greater than this amount will change the use group to an H-3 Hazardous Use Group. NFPA 55 does not reference any of the building code required fire separation ratings between different use groups. Other issues will be how will the cylinders be filled? Will there be cryogenic oxygen stored? Will there be trans-filling of containers? What type of floor surface is in the area. If a hydrocarbon based product oxygen-enriched atmosphere can cause these products to ignite faster, and burn faster and hotter than usual. NFPA 55 only requires a one hour separation while the IBC requires up to a 2 hour fire separation between occupancies. Someone needs to sit down with the owner and explain that this issue is not in the realm of the sprinkler contractor's expertise unless the contractor would like to add to their uninsured liability potential. This would require an engineering analysis by a FPE who has experience in industrial gas storage facilities and Hazardous Use Group Occupancies of the IBC. If you think Mechanical PE's practicing in the discipline of fire protection are funny, wait until you see them perform in the industrial gas arena. Have a fire safe day! Regards Jim DAVIDSON ASSOCIATES Fire Protection Engineering P. O. Box 4010 Code ConsultantsGreenville, DE 19807-0010 Medical Gas Systems Engineering (302) 994-9500 Fax (302) 234-1781 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 2:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: 02 storage This is a completely new area for me so any help is appreciated. Issue: Medical Gas Storage of 02 only in various cylinders. The tenant and owner of this Commercial / Industrial Strip center is having difficulty with the AHJ who claims that even if they classify the warehouse portion of this space as Storage Occupancy instead of Business, The maximum cubic footage of 02 allowed to be stored in one place is 12,000 with High Hazard Sprinkler protection. The tenant needs to store almost 20,000 cubic feet. Does anyone have expertise in this area? Thanks, Greg -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attach ments/20120810/f3e9c5a0/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Re: 02 storage
All interested, The question is regarding the building code, not fire protection per se'. I was just trying to educate myself and help the AHJ, who we have a great relationship with, in case there was something he was missing. Per Florida State Law however, this will not require an Engineer to be involved due to the size of the system and we are qualified to use the code as it is written and apply it. It turns out after an emergency meeting Friday afternoon, that the AHJ has done his homework and has told the Tenant and Architect exactly what the options are. The options are as follows: (per the Florida Building Code and NFPA #55 and 13) 1) Max storage of 12,000 cubit feet of 02 compartmentalized into control areas of 3,000 cuft each - separated with 2 hr separation. 2) same as above except 6,000 per control area if ventilated appropriately 3) store the remainder of the 20,000 cuft outside OR 1) item one and 2 above and then utilize separation suffucuent to count another area of the building as a separate building per the building code, and store 12,000 cuft more. That is the AHJ's interpretation and up to others to decide what to do. It does APPEAR to the AHJ and myself that OH2 over 3,000 sqft is the sprinkler design criteria. Thanks, Greg On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote: Greg, This occupancy needs to be evaluated by an FPE and he or she needs to make protection recommendations. This may be covered in NFPA 55, NFPA 99 or similar documents, but is beyond what a contractor would normally deal with. Todd At 02:08 PM 8/10/2012, you wrote: Cubic Feet On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Morey, Mike mo...@bmwc.com wrote: Cubic feet or square feet? It sounds an awful lot like he's refering to the IFC requirements for High Piled Combustible Storage. They may have an egress or building design issue that is causing a limitation. We've run into this a number of times where people just want us to make the sprinkler system work only to find out that the building won't work for what they want. -Mike Morey, SET Sprinkler Designer BMW Constructors, Inc mo...@bmwc.com Desk: 317-651-0596 Cell: 317-439-2695 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 1:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: 02 storage This is a completely new area for me so any help is appreciated. Issue: Medical Gas Storage of 02 only in various cylinders. The tenant and owner of this Commercial / Industrial Strip center is having difficulty with the AHJ who claims that even if they classify the warehouse portion of this space as Storage Occupancy instead of Business, The maximum cubic footage of 02 allowed to be stored in one place is 12,000 with High Hazard Sprinkler protection. The tenant needs to store almost 20,000 cubic feet. Does anyone have expertise in this area? Thanks, Greg -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attach ments/20120810/f3e9c5a0/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20120810/3ed155de/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20120813/6f42df5c/attachment.html
RE: 02 storage
860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20120813/6f42df5c/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: 02 storage (hazardous materials assessment)
The definition of O2 as a hazardous material is based on IBC Section 307.2 and the defined quantities in IBC Table 307.1(1). When quantities exceed the MAQ in Table 307.1(1), the various design options being discussed come into play. The concept of Control Area is defined in (2009) IBC Section 414.2. The IBC fire barrier is noted in Table 414.2.2. I'm very surprised any AHJ would have to be educated on this, but looking back at the messages it may be that what the AHJ said was being filtered through a number of people who were not familiar with the process used to deal with hazardous materials. What I've found in the real world is the lack of correlation between commonly generated MSDS and the various building and fire code classification tables which does not appear to factor into this application. I'm not familiar with the Florida Building Code, perhaps it is much more complex than the IBC. Keep in mind there are 13 Exceptions listed under Section 307.1, one of which (Exception 2) is the storage of flammable and combustible liquids in mercantile. If it were not for this exception some stores we regularly shop in would not exist in their present form. Also Exception 6 is your neighborhood State Store (a nod to George C.). Bill Brooks -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: 02 storage Sounds like there are some building code issues which should not be addressed by the sprinkler contractor. It may be your job is not so complicated if you apply NFPA 55. But somebody else may or may not have done their job. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of jhoff...@kcp.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 2:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: 02 storage IFC, chapter 27 and NFPA 55 have the same criteria for oxidizing gas. It is 3000 cu ft per control area. Don't know where the AHJ is coming up with 12000 cu ft unless he is considering the maximum of 4 control areas per building and then you get to 12000 cu ft. This means 4 areas that are fire separated from each other and the rest of the building. John Hoffman P.E. | Fire Protection Engineer | Facility Engineering Services, KCP, LLC - Burns McDonnell Engineering | National Nuclear Security Administration's Kansas City Plant | Operated by Honeywell FMT | 2000 E. 95th St | Kansas City, MO 64131 | ph 816-997-7213 | jhoff...@kcp.com From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: 08/10/2012 12:50 PM Subject:02 storage Sent by:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org This is a completely new area for me so any help is appreciated. Issue: Medical Gas Storage of 02 only in various cylinders. The tenant and owner of this Commercial / Industrial Strip center is having difficulty with the AHJ who claims that even if they classify the warehouse portion of this space as Storage Occupancy instead of Business, The maximum cubic footage of 02 allowed to be stored in one place is 12,000 with High Hazard Sprinkler protection. The tenant needs to store almost 20,000 cubic feet. Does anyone have expertise in this area? Thanks, Greg -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments /20120810/f3e9c5a0/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: 02 storage (hazardous materials assessment)
One big problem is design professionals who don't know to ask for MSDS or who can't read them when they get them. I didn't read that the scenario in question was a mercantile operation. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 10:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: 02 storage (hazardous materials assessment) The definition of O2 as a hazardous material is based on IBC Section 307.2 and the defined quantities in IBC Table 307.1(1). When quantities exceed the MAQ in Table 307.1(1), the various design options being discussed come into play. The concept of Control Area is defined in (2009) IBC Section 414.2. The IBC fire barrier is noted in Table 414.2.2. I'm very surprised any AHJ would have to be educated on this, but looking back at the messages it may be that what the AHJ said was being filtered through a number of people who were not familiar with the process used to deal with hazardous materials. What I've found in the real world is the lack of correlation between commonly generated MSDS and the various building and fire code classification tables which does not appear to factor into this application. I'm not familiar with the Florida Building Code, perhaps it is much more complex than the IBC. Keep in mind there are 13 Exceptions listed under Section 307.1, one of which (Exception 2) is the storage of flammable and combustible liquids in mercantile. If it were not for this exception some stores we regularly shop in would not exist in their present form. Also Exception 6 is your neighborhood State Store (a nod to George C.). Bill Brooks -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: 02 storage Sounds like there are some building code issues which should not be addressed by the sprinkler contractor. It may be your job is not so complicated if you apply NFPA 55. But somebody else may or may not have done their job. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of jhoff...@kcp.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 2:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: 02 storage IFC, chapter 27 and NFPA 55 have the same criteria for oxidizing gas. It is 3000 cu ft per control area. Don't know where the AHJ is coming up with 12000 cu ft unless he is considering the maximum of 4 control areas per building and then you get to 12000 cu ft. This means 4 areas that are fire separated from each other and the rest of the building. John Hoffman P.E. | Fire Protection Engineer | Facility Engineering Services, KCP, LLC - Burns McDonnell Engineering | National Nuclear Security Administration's Kansas City Plant | Operated by Honeywell FMT | 2000 E. 95th St | Kansas City, MO 64131 | ph 816-997-7213 | jhoff...@kcp.com From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: 08/10/2012 12:50 PM Subject:02 storage Sent by:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org This is a completely new area for me so any help is appreciated. Issue: Medical Gas Storage of 02 only in various cylinders. The tenant and owner of this Commercial / Industrial Strip center is having difficulty with the AHJ who claims that even if they classify the warehouse portion of this space as Storage Occupancy instead of Business, The maximum cubic footage of 02 allowed to be stored in one place is 12,000 with High Hazard Sprinkler protection. The tenant needs to store almost 20,000 cubic feet. Does anyone have expertise in this area? Thanks, Greg -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments /20120810/f3e9c5a0/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
