date:20160606

RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread Larry Keeping

That being the case, my best suggestion is that you could use the latest 
editions of the standard as clarification of the intent for the requirement in 
the 2010 edition.

Larry Keeping

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: June-06-16 1:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

Unfortunately, I am under 2010 Code.

John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager
Critical System Solutions, LLC
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 1:04 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

I think the guidance you are looking for is in Section 5.9 of NFPA 24-2016:

Section 5.9.1 General states that: "Where the AHJ requires a remote fire 
department connection for systems requiring one by another standard,  fire 
department connection shall be provided as described in Section 5.9."

Section 5.9.3.2.1 says: "Control valves shall be permitted in the system piping 
downstream of the fire department connection piping."

In particular, you might want to look at Figure A.5.9(b), Figure 5.9.3.2.1(a), 
Figure 5.9.3.2.1(b) and Figure A.6.2.2.2.

Larry Keeping

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: June-06-16 11:32 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device, how do 
we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 "Except for the valve required by 6.3.2, 
shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the system"?

I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have never 
had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a remote FDC 
or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn't seem to have this same exception. 
I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes will be manual wet.

John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager

Critical System Solutions, LLC
2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
St. Petersburg, FL  33716
Office: 727.209.5122
Fax:  727.209.5126
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

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RE: Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

2016-06-06 Thread Steve Leyton

Thanks, that affirms it, I think.

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Scott Futrell
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 9:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

Steve,

I have the 1983 IRM version also, but it was expanded and updated in 2000 by 
SFPE and in that it states, "This book is an update of the original book 
published in 1983 by my former employer, IRM Insurance.

I hope that helps.

Scott

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
Cell: (612) 759-5556

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 11:53 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

I have a "First Edition" from IRM insurance that's dated 1983.   Does anyone 
know when this book was FIRST published?  I think it predates the 80s and IRM 
but I'm not sure and need to verify for a narrative I'm writing.

Thanks
Steve
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RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread John Irwin

Unfortunately, I am under 2010 Code.

John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager
Critical System Solutions, LLC
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 1:04 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

I think the guidance you are looking for is in Section 5.9 of NFPA 24-2016:

Section 5.9.1 General states that: "Where the AHJ requires a remote fire 
department connection for systems requiring one by another standard,  fire 
department connection shall be provided as described in Section 5.9."

Section 5.9.3.2.1 says: "Control valves shall be permitted in the system piping 
downstream of the fire department connection piping."

In particular, you might want to look at Figure A.5.9(b), Figure 5.9.3.2.1(a), 
Figure 5.9.3.2.1(b) and Figure A.6.2.2.2.

Larry Keeping


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: June-06-16 11:32 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device, how do 
we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 "Except for the valve required by 6.3.2, 
shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the system"?

I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have never 
had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a remote FDC 
or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn't seem to have this same exception. 
I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes will be manual wet.


John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager

Critical System Solutions, LLC
2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
St. Petersburg, FL  33716
Office: 727.209.5122
Fax:  727.209.5126
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

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Re: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread rongreenman .

Thank you sir. May I have another?

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Steve Leyton 
wrote:

> You’re an idiot (which has nothing to do with the content of this thread,
> BTW).
>
>
>
> The foregoing is my opinion only …
>
>
>
> SL
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *rongreenman
> .
> *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 9:16 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes
>
>
>
> Leyton will probably say I'm an idiot but you cannot have any valving
> between the FDC and the house connections on the standpipe. Attach after
> the back flow, or pump, or what have you, but make sure it's after the last
> valve on the municipal line.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 8:32 AM, John Irwin <
> jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com> wrote:
>
> When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device,
> how do we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 “*Except for the valve required
> by 6.3.2, shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the
> system*”?
>
>
>
> I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have
> never had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a
> remote FDC or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn’t seem to have this
> same exception. I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes
> will be manual wet.
>
>
>
>
>
> *John Irwin*
>
> Sprinkler Construction Manager
>
>
>
>
> *Critical System Solutions, LLC *2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
> St. Petersburg, FL  33716
> Office: 727.209.5122
>
> Fax:  727.209.5126
>
> Cell: 813.618.2781
>
> Email:  jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com
>
>
>
> [image: CSS Logo]
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ron Greenman
>
>
> 4110 Olson Dr., NW
> Gig Harbor, WA 98335
>
> rongreen...@gmail.com
>
> 253.576.9700
>
>
>
> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
> inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
>


-- 
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread Larry Keeping

I think the guidance you are looking for is in Section 5.9 of NFPA 24-2016:

Section 5.9.1 General states that: "Where the AHJ requires a remote fire 
department connection for systems requiring one by another standard,  fire 
department connection shall be provided as described in Section 5.9."

Section 5.9.3.2.1 says: "Control valves shall be permitted in the system piping 
downstream of the fire department connection piping."

In particular, you might want to look at Figure A.5.9(b), Figure 5.9.3.2.1(a), 
Figure 5.9.3.2.1(b) and Figure A.6.2.2.2.

Larry Keeping


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: June-06-16 11:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device, how do 
we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 "Except for the valve required by 6.3.2, 
shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the system"?

I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have never 
had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a remote FDC 
or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn't seem to have this same exception. 
I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes will be manual wet.


John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager

Critical System Solutions, LLC
2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
St. Petersburg, FL  33716
Office: 727.209.5122
Fax:  727.209.5126
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

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RE: Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

2016-06-06 Thread Scott Futrell

Steve,

I have the 1983 IRM version also, but it was expanded and updated in 2000 by 
SFPE and in that it states, "This book is an update of the original book 
published in 1983 by my former employer, IRM Insurance.

I hope that helps.

Scott

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
Cell: (612) 759-5556

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 11:53 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

I have a "First Edition" from IRM insurance that's dated 1983.   Does anyone 
know when this book was FIRST published?  I think it predates the 80s and IRM 
but I'm not sure and need to verify for a narrative I'm writing.

Thanks
Steve
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RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread Steve Leyton

You’re an idiot (which has nothing to do with the content of this thread, BTW).

The foregoing is my opinion only …

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of rongreenman .
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 9:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

Leyton will probably say I'm an idiot but you cannot have any valving between 
the FDC and the house connections on the standpipe. Attach after the back flow, 
or pump, or what have you, but make sure it's after the last valve on the 
municipal line.

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 8:32 AM, John Irwin 
> 
wrote:
When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device, how do 
we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 “Except for the valve required by 6.3.2, 
shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the system”?

I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have never 
had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a remote FDC 
or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn’t seem to have this same exception. 
I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes will be manual wet.

John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager

Critical System Solutions, LLC
2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
St. Petersburg, FL  33716
Office: 727.209.5122
Fax:  727.209.5126
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

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--
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor 
and engineer (1876-1958)
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Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

2016-06-06 Thread Steve Leyton

I have a "First Edition" from IRM insurance that's dated 1983.   Does anyone 
know when this book was FIRST published?  I think it predates the 80s and IRM 
but I'm not sure and need to verify for a narrative I'm writing.

Thanks
Steve
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RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread John Irwin

Thank you. We agree.

John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager
Critical System Solutions, LLC
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Mike Stossel
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 12:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

To the best of my knowledge, no exception exists for valves located on an FDC.  
The FDC will need to take connection to the standpipe and systems beyond all of 
the incoming source valves and backflow preventer.

   Mike Stossel
   NICET Level IV
   Automatic Sprinkler System Layout
   1070 38th Street
   Brooklyn N.Y. 11219
   Office: 718-633-3036 ext 114
   Fax:  718-633-4593
   m...@safetyfiresprinkler.com
  www.safetyfiresprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 11:32 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device, how do 
we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 "Except for the valve required by 6.3.2, 
shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the system"?

I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have never 
had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a remote FDC 
or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn't seem to have this same exception. 
I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes will be manual wet.


John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager

Critical System Solutions, LLC
2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
St. Petersburg, FL  33716
Office: 727.209.5122
Fax:  727.209.5126
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

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RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread Mike Stossel

To the best of my knowledge, no exception exists for valves located on an FDC.  
The FDC will need to take connection to the standpipe and systems beyond all of 
the incoming source valves and backflow preventer.

   Mike Stossel
   NICET Level IV
   Automatic Sprinkler System Layout
   1070 38th Street
   Brooklyn N.Y. 11219
   Office: 718-633-3036 ext 114
   Fax:  718-633-4593
   m...@safetyfiresprinkler.com
  www.safetyfiresprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 11:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device, how do 
we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 "Except for the valve required by 6.3.2, 
shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the system"?

I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have never 
had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a remote FDC 
or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn't seem to have this same exception. 
I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes will be manual wet.


John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager

Critical System Solutions, LLC
2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
St. Petersburg, FL  33716
Office: 727.209.5122
Fax:  727.209.5126
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

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Re: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread rongreenman .

Leyton will probably say I'm an idiot but you cannot have any valving
between the FDC and the house connections on the standpipe. Attach after
the back flow, or pump, or what have you, but make sure it's after the last
valve on the municipal line.

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 8:32 AM, John Irwin <
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com> wrote:

> When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device,
> how do we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 “*Except for the valve required
> by 6.3.2, shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the
> system*”?
>
>
>
> I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have
> never had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a
> remote FDC or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn’t seem to have this
> same exception. I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes
> will be manual wet.
>
>
>
>
>
> *John Irwin*
>
> Sprinkler Construction Manager
>
>
>
>
> *Critical System Solutions, LLC*2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
> St. Petersburg, FL  33716
> Office: 727.209.5122
>
> Fax:  727.209.5126
>
> Cell: 813.618.2781
>
> Email:  jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com
>
>
>
> [image: CSS Logo]
>
>
>
> ___
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> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
>


-- 
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

2016-06-06 Thread John Irwin

When using a remote FDC on the underground line or the backflow device, how do 
we get around NFPA 14 2010 6.4.1 "Except for the valve required by 6.3.2, 
shutoff valves shall not be installed between the FDC and the system"?

I have done many yard FDCs on four story hotels over the years and have never 
had this question come up. NFPA 13 has an exception to allow for a remote FDC 
or an FDC tied in to a header, but 14 doesn't seem to have this same exception. 
I should note we have combination standpipes. Standpipes will be manual wet.


John Irwin
Sprinkler Construction Manager

Critical System Solutions, LLC
2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300
St. Petersburg, FL  33716
Office: 727.209.5122
Fax:  727.209.5126
Cell: 813.618.2781
Email:  
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com

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RE: Storage question

2016-06-06 Thread Craig.Prahl

That is too wide open of a question.  It would better for the owner to tell you 
what types of things he would consider storing and you provide a "yes"-"no" 
response to those choices.  With that water supply you are going to have 
limitations.


Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd. 
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Paulsen
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 8:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Storage question

Mel:

I offer my assistance to help sort that question out for you. There are too 
many variables to answer your question in the forum. If you like please give me 
a call or contact me via Email at the numbers below and I will do what I can.

Thanks,

John Paulsen - SET
Crown Fire System Design
6282 Seeds Rd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P - 614-782-2438
F - 614-782-2374
C - 614-348-8206
j...@crwnfire.com


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Melherrell
Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2016 11:23 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Storage question

What may be an approach to the following A new metal bldg. 375'x150'. 3:12 
Pitch.  Owner wants fire protection For storage.  Wants to know what can he 
store.  He says water is
60 Static 50 Residual 1050  gym
I have not verified water.  Eaves 21', Peak @ 39'-8" I have not much Experience 
for storage.  I realize NFPA limits at 2:12 Any thoughts?

Mel

Mel Herrell
2012 Eastland Dr.
Evansville,In
Cell  812-454-3568
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RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

RE: Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

Re: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

RE: Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

Sprinkler Hydraulics by Harold Wass Jr.

RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

RE: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

Re: NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

NFPA 14 / Remote FDC / Manual Stand-pipes

RE: Storage question

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