Re: Kitchen Hoods

[Douglas Hicks]

At one of the  UL300 classes I attended, the instructor told us that Fluke had 
instruments that would record the temps of the plenum.  Fluke said they had no 
instruments that would measure the temp in the plenum.  But, Brooks Equip 
(800.826.3473 does have temperature labels that have an adhesive backing.  The 
labels are a a 1/2” square with a 1/4” dot.  The dot turns black at 500°F.  21 
dots @ $28.34 each card.

From: Scott Futrell 
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 4:02 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Kitchen Hoods

The best method would be to do a temperature survey at the location of the 
sprinkler. Use the temperature recorders that kitchen hood suppression 
contractors use to determine maximum temperatures or a recording device with a 
thermocouple.

 

The correct sprinkler temperature rating would be a function of the operating 
temperature of the oven, how long it is on (some don’t let them cool down much 
at night, how far the sprinkler is from the opening, what the airflow around 
the sprinkler is, and what the ambient temperature of the area is maintained at.

 

Scott

 

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 202

Cell: (612) 759-5556

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Brian Harris
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 11:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Kitchen Hoods

 

What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads spaced around the 
perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I didn’t see anything specific about it 
in 13.

 

Brian Harris, CET

BVS Systems Inc.

Sprinkler Division

bvssystemsinc.com

Phone: 704.896.9989

Fax: 704.896.1935

 




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RE: Paint spray application

[Larry Keeping]

Back to the original question, the only sidewall extra hazard sprinkler that 
I’m aware of is the Reliable Model MBEC-14 Extended Coverage Ordinary & Extra 
Hazard Horizontal Sidewall Sprinklers for Metal Building Applications.

It is a specialty sprinkler, but a spray booth is a type of metal 
building/structure.

I believe FM doesn’t like it for flammable and combustible liquids, so that 
agency wouldn’t accept it in a spray booth, but I think a case could be made 
for using it per NFPA 13 and NFPA 33. I’d run it past the tech. reps at 
Reliable though, before I went too far down the road with it.

Larry Keeping

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of rongreenman .
Sent: August-08-16 9:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Paint spray application

A large paint booth.

American’s first 787-8 in the paint booth

[Inline image 1]

Paine Field, Everett, WA


On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Travis Mack, SET 
> wrote:

I think the point they have all been making is that not everything fits into 
your areas of experience.  Yes, I have seen paint booths in excess of 2000 sq 
ft.  So, the design area per EH2 (.4/2000 with reduction based on use of high 
temp sprinklers) would not encompass the entire area of the paint booth.  
Therefore, your idea of using sprinklers outside of their listing and the 
prescriptives of NFPA 13 could be quite bad judgment.  It could also ruin a 
person financially if it went real bad, not counting other possible scenarios 
that could play out.

This forum is a great educational tool as well as a great way to bounce ideas 
between colleagues.  We have to remember that there are some people new in the 
industry that may see posts by a frequent poster and think he knows more and 
has more experience than he actually does.  They may then take this as the 
correct approach, when it is quite obviously not the correct approach.

By sticking to the guidelines of NFPA 13 where they are very clearly black and 
white, we are best able to defend our actions.  NFPA 13 is not a perfect 
document.  But, it does provide us with definite guidelines and legislated 
criteria we can follow.

If you want to get into performance based design and become the responsible 
engineer of record on the projects you are involved in, then more power to you. 
 However, as most of this board is comprised of those at the technician level - 
including yourself - we do not have that luxury.  As such, we do our best to 
follow the published standards and best practices of the industry.

Back to the original question, I have frequently seen these installed as 
pendent sprinklers in the horizontal position.  I also frequently see them on 
flex hose assemblies to aid in  the inspection process.

Travis Mack, SET

MFP Design, LLC

2508 E Lodgepole Drive

Gilbert, AZ 85298

480-505-9271

fax: 866-430-6107

email:tm...@mfpdesign.com



http://www.mfpdesign.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 8/8/2016 6:25 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:

I don't know Ron. The closest I have come to that is the foam pop-up nozzles 
for protecting the B2 Stealths at Whitman AFB a couple hours drive from where I 
grew up.
It was pretty harry but the normal stuff surrounding it all was fairly standard.
On Aug 8, 2016 8:14 PM, "rongreenman ." 
> wrote:
How about the spray booth for a 747 Brad? Or a B-52?

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Brad Casterline 
> wrote:

Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve
On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton" 
> wrote:
Sure.  And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics and FCL’s 
(not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response sprinklers in a 
minute.   I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers and 
skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the roof/ceiling 
assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode sprinklers into EH 
fires.   (On paper) MDD = .80ADD = .275

My opinion only,
Steve L.



From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
 On Behalf Of Brad Casterline
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Paint spray application


Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
I am no more a professional than you are.
THINK MAN!
small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can muster.
I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers though--

Re: Paint spray application

[edkvining]

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: Bruce Verhei  
Date: 08/08/2016  6:44 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Paint spray application 

I thought about writing a code change proposing fast response heads for spray 
booths. I was expressly interested in sprinklered booths in unsprinklered 
buildings. . 
A friend at FM forwarded several fire reports. Systems varied from several 
heads to the 50-60. 
Consistent was that all heads in space, and exhaust operated. And, except for 
remote supplied paint, fire was successfully contained to booth.
In addition someone at FM had done a report that stated that due to small, 
confined area, ceiling temps rose fast enough that the faster response heads 
would only operate something near ten seconds faster. I don't remember the 
model fire. This was specifically considering paper bag covered heads.
Quick response heads at the time were still a considerable margin over  
standard response. 
Given that they also tend to be a little more fragile, think changing covers, 
with minimal benefit, I walked away from pursuing it further.
Two things of note. This was before downdraft or semi-downdraft booths were 
common.
Booths with bulk tank or 55-gallon drum supplied, production spray operations 
did have failures. Fire caused failure of hose in booth. Pressure sensor 
commanded pump to supply more paint. Entire volume pumps into space. Not clear 
if this was flowing, or spraying, atomized faults. The two examples they had 
were in sprinklered buildings. A bunch of ceiling sprinklers in the shell 
buildings operated and controlled the fires.
Best
Bruce  Verhei
On Aug 8, 2016, at 17:17, Brad Casterline  wrote:

Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken. 

I am no more a professional than you are.

THINK MAN!

small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can muster.

I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers though--

please stop being so stodgy!
On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting"  wrote:

  

  
  
I don't know, Brad. 
You're standing on pretty shaky ground there. 



The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy
is a direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the
2016 edition, or a similar section number, at least as far back
as the 1999 edition.  If you install QR sprinklers in a space
that is legitimately classed as an extra hazard occupancy,
aren't you directly contradicting this particular section of
NFPA 13?  The handbook provides the following explanatory text
on the topic:

  
Extra
  hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of
  fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have
  the potential to open a large number of quick-response
  sprinklers before the sprinklers have time to control the
  fire. The operation of a large number of sprinklers in a
  relatively short time period has the potential to overtax the
  system. For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the
  area

  design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the
  protection of extra hazard occupancies. Additional perspective
  on this can be found in the discussion of safety margin found
  in B.2.1.


Further, I'm not aware
of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and listed by an NRTL
for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies.  Barring that,
to follow the guidance you're suggesting the
contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND
the listing of the sprinkler.  I'm not suggesting the gloom and
doom drama of "people could die", however it does concern me
greatly when I read suggestions to ignore both texts. 



My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up,
and have a good lawyer on retainer.  I don't know of a good
defense while sitting in the witness chair to a question similar
to, "Are you telling me you ignored the applicable law and the
manufacturer's recommendations for the installation of that
sprinkler?"  



When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions
similar to that.

  
Ken Wagoner,
  SET

  Parsley Consulting

  350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206

Escondido, California 92025


Phone 760-745-6181


Visit our
  website
  


  On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:



  We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say
balderdash.

That is for big open spaces 

Re: Paint spray application

[Brad Casterline]

Ummhumm.
You tend to be stodgy too Travis.
I said SMALL AREAS WITH FAST FIRES.
Any time you or anyone else wants to hand me the hemlock for corrupting the
youth is fine.
I'll only need a minute or two.
On Aug 8, 2016 8:38 PM, "Travis Mack, SET"  wrote:

> I think the point they have all been making is that not everything fits
> into your areas of experience.  Yes, I have seen paint booths in excess of
> 2000 sq ft.  So, the design area per EH2 (.4/2000 with reduction based on
> use of high temp sprinklers) would not encompass the entire area of the
> paint booth.  Therefore, your idea of using sprinklers outside of their
> listing and the prescriptives of NFPA 13 could be quite bad judgment.  It
> could also ruin a person financially if it went real bad, not counting
> other possible scenarios that could play out.
>
> This forum is a great educational tool as well as a great way to bounce
> ideas between colleagues.  We have to remember that there are some people
> new in the industry that may see posts by a frequent poster and think he
> knows more and has more experience than he actually does.  They may then
> take this as the correct approach, when it is quite obviously not the
> correct approach.
>
> By sticking to the guidelines of NFPA 13 where they are very clearly black
> and white, we are best able to defend our actions.  NFPA 13 is not a
> perfect document.  But, it does provide us with definite guidelines and
> legislated criteria we can follow.
>
> If you want to get into performance based design and become the
> responsible engineer of record on the projects you are involved in, then
> more power to you.  However, as most of this board is comprised of those at
> the technician level - including yourself - we do not have that luxury.  As
> such, we do our best to follow the published standards and best practices
> of the industry.
>
> Back to the original question, I have frequently seen these installed as
> pendent sprinklers in the horizontal position.  I also frequently see them
> on flex hose assemblies to aid in  the inspection process.
>
> Travis Mack, SET
> MFP Design, LLC
> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
> Gilbert, AZ 85298480-505-9271
> fax: 866-430-6107email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
> http://www.mfpdesign.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
>
> On 8/8/2016 6:25 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
>
> I don't know Ron. The closest I have come to that is the foam pop-up
> nozzles for protecting the B2 Stealths at Whitman AFB a couple hours drive
> from where I grew up.
> It was pretty harry but the normal stuff surrounding it all was fairly
> standard.
> On Aug 8, 2016 8:14 PM, "rongreenman ."  wrote:
>
>> How about the spray booth for a 747 Brad? Or a B-52?
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Brad Casterline 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve
>>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Sure.  And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics
 and FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response
 sprinklers in a minute.   I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding
 sprinklers and skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the
 roof/ceiling assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode
 sprinklers into EH fires.   (On paper) MDD = .80ADD = .275



 My opinion only,

 Steve L.







 *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces
 @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline
 *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM
 *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 *Subject:* Re: Paint spray application



 Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
 I am no more a professional than you are.
 THINK MAN!
 small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can
 muster.
 I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers
 though--
 please stop being so stodgy!

 On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" 
 wrote:

 I don't know, Brad.  You're standing on pretty shaky ground there.

 The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a
 direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition,
 or a similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition.  If
 you install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an
 extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular
 section of NFPA 13?  The handbook provides the following explanatory text
 on the topic:

 Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the 

Re: Paint spray application

[Bruce Verhei]

I thought about writing a code change proposing fast response heads for spray 
booths. I was expressly interested in sprinklered booths in unsprinklered 
buildings. . 

A friend at FM forwarded several fire reports. Systems varied from several 
heads to the 50-60. 

Consistent was that all heads in space, and exhaust operated. And, except for 
remote supplied paint, fire was successfully contained to booth.

In addition someone at FM had done a report that stated that due to small, 
confined area, ceiling temps rose fast enough that the faster response heads 
would only operate something near ten seconds faster. I don't remember the 
model fire. This was specifically considering paper bag covered heads.

Quick response heads at the time were still a considerable margin over  
standard response. 

Given that they also tend to be a little more fragile, think changing covers, 
with minimal benefit, I walked away from pursuing it further.

Two things of note. This was before downdraft or semi-downdraft booths were 
common.

Booths with bulk tank or 55-gallon drum supplied, production spray operations 
did have failures. Fire caused failure of hose in booth. Pressure sensor 
commanded pump to supply more paint. Entire volume pumps into space. Not clear 
if this was flowing, or spraying, atomized faults. The two examples they had 
were in sprinklered buildings. A bunch of ceiling sprinklers in the shell 
buildings operated and controlled the fires.

Best

Bruce  Verhei

> On Aug 8, 2016, at 17:17, Brad Casterline  wrote:
> 
> Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken. 
> I am no more a professional than you are.
> THINK MAN!
> small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can muster.
> I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers though--
> please stop being so stodgy!
> 
>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting"  
>> wrote:
>> I don't know, Brad.  You're standing on pretty shaky ground there. 
>> 
>> The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a direct 
>> contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition, or a 
>> similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition.  If you 
>> install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an extra 
>> hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular section 
>> of NFPA 13?  The handbook provides the following explanatory text on the 
>> topic:
>> Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of   
>> fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential 
>> to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers 
>> have time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of sprinklers 
>> in a relatively short time period has the potential to overtax the system. 
>> For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area
>> design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of extra 
>> hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in the 
>> discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1.
>> Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and listed 
>> by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies.  Barring that, to 
>> follow the guidance you're suggesting the contractor/designer/installer has 
>> to violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing of the sprinkler.  I'm not 
>> suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people could die", however it does 
>> concern me greatly when I read suggestions to ignore both texts. 
>> 
>> My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and have a 
>> good lawyer on retainer.  I don't know of a good defense while sitting in 
>> the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me you ignored 
>> the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for the 
>> installation of that sprinkler?"  
>> 
>> When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar to 
>> that.
>> Ken Wagoner, SET
>> Parsley Consulting
>> 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
>> Escondido, California 92025
>> Phone 760-745-6181
>> Visit our website
>> 
>>> On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
>>> We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash.
>>> That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads going 
>>> off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces with 
>>> fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head 
>>> possible going off
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> 

Re: Paint spray application

[Travis Mack, SET]

I think the point they have all been making is that not everything fits 
into your areas of experience.  Yes, I have seen paint booths in excess 
of 2000 sq ft.  So, the design area per EH2 (.4/2000 with reduction 
based on use of high temp sprinklers) would not encompass the entire 
area of the paint booth. Therefore, your idea of using sprinklers 
outside of their listing and the prescriptives of NFPA 13 could be quite 
bad judgment.  It could also ruin a person financially if it went real 
bad, not counting other possible scenarios that could play out.


This forum is a great educational tool as well as a great way to bounce 
ideas between colleagues.  We have to remember that there are some 
people new in the industry that may see posts by a frequent poster and 
think he knows more and has more experience than he actually does.  They 
may then take this as the correct approach, when it is quite obviously 
not the correct approach.


By sticking to the guidelines of NFPA 13 where they are very clearly 
black and white, we are best able to defend our actions. NFPA 13 is not 
a perfect document.  But, it does provide us with definite guidelines 
and legislated criteria we can follow.


If you want to get into performance based design and become the 
responsible engineer of record on the projects you are involved in, then 
more power to you.  However, as most of this board is comprised of those 
at the technician level - including yourself - we do not have that 
luxury.  As such, we do our best to follow the published standards and 
best practices of the industry.


Back to the original question, I have frequently seen these installed as 
pendent sprinklers in the horizontal position.  I also frequently see 
them on flex hose assemblies to aid in  the inspection process.


Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 8/8/2016 6:25 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:


I don't know Ron. The closest I have come to that is the foam pop-up 
nozzles for protecting the B2 Stealths at Whitman AFB a couple hours 
drive from where I grew up.
It was pretty harry but the normal stuff surrounding it all was fairly 
standard.


On Aug 8, 2016 8:14 PM, "rongreenman ." > wrote:


How about the spray booth for a 747 Brad? Or a B-52?

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Brad Casterline
> wrote:

Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve

On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton"
> wrote:

Sure. And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as
plastics and FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40
standard response sprinklers in a minute.   I can only
imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers and
skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the
roof/ceiling assembly is if you started wantonly plugging
QR control-mode sprinklers into EH fires. (On paper) MDD =
.80ADD = .275

My opinion only,

Steve L.

*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
]
*On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline
*Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org

*Subject:* Re: Paint spray application

Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
I am no more a professional than you are.
THINK MAN!
small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting
sprinklers we can muster.
I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over
sprinklers though--
please stop being so stodgy!

On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting"
> wrote:

I don't know, Brad.  You're standing on pretty shaky
ground there.

The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard
occpuancy is a direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA
13, including the 2016 edition, or a similar section
number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition.  If you
install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately
classed as an extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly
contradicting this particular section of 

Re: Paint spray application

[Brad Casterline]

I don't know Ron. The closest I have come to that is the foam pop-up
nozzles for protecting the B2 Stealths at Whitman AFB a couple hours drive
from where I grew up.
It was pretty harry but the normal stuff surrounding it all was fairly
standard.
On Aug 8, 2016 8:14 PM, "rongreenman ."  wrote:

> How about the spray booth for a 747 Brad? Or a B-52?
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Brad Casterline 
> wrote:
>
>> Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve
>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure.  And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics and
>>> FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response sprinklers
>>> in a minute.   I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers
>>> and skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the roof/ceiling
>>> assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode sprinklers
>>> into EH fires.   (On paper) MDD = .80ADD = .275
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My opinion only,
>>>
>>> Steve L.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces
>>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline
>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM
>>> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: Paint spray application
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
>>> I am no more a professional than you are.
>>> THINK MAN!
>>> small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can
>>> muster.
>>> I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers
>>> though--
>>> please stop being so stodgy!
>>>
>>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know, Brad.  You're standing on pretty shaky ground there.
>>>
>>> The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a
>>> direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition,
>>> or a similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition.  If
>>> you install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an
>>> extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular
>>> section of NFPA 13?  The handbook provides the following explanatory text
>>> on the topic:
>>>
>>> Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of
>>> fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential
>>> to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers
>>> have time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of
>>> sprinklers in a relatively short time period has the potential to overtax
>>> the system. For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area
>>> design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of
>>> extra hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in
>>> the discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1.
>>>
>>> Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and
>>> listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies.  Barring
>>> that, to follow the guidance you're suggesting the
>>> contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing
>>> of the sprinkler.  I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people
>>> could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read suggestions to
>>> ignore both texts.
>>>
>>> My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and
>>> have a good lawyer on retainer.  I don't know of a good defense while
>>> sitting in the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me
>>> you ignored the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for
>>> the installation of that sprinkler?"
>>>
>>> When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar
>>> to that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
>>> Escondido, California 92025 Phone 760-745-6181 <760-745-6181> Visit our
>>> website  *
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
>>>
>>> We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash.
>>> That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads
>>> going off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces
>>> with fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head
>>> possible going off
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f
>>> iresprinkler.org
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f
>>> iresprinkler.org
>>>
>>>
>> 

Re: Paint spray application

[rongreenman .]

How about the spray booth for a 747 Brad? Or a B-52?

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Brad Casterline 
wrote:

> Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve
> On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton"  wrote:
>
>> Sure.  And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics and
>> FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response sprinklers
>> in a minute.   I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers
>> and skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the roof/ceiling
>> assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode sprinklers
>> into EH fires.   (On paper) MDD = .80ADD = .275
>>
>>
>>
>> My opinion only,
>>
>> Steve L.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces
>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM
>> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> *Subject:* Re: Paint spray application
>>
>>
>>
>> Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
>> I am no more a professional than you are.
>> THINK MAN!
>> small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can
>> muster.
>> I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers
>> though--
>> please stop being so stodgy!
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I don't know, Brad.  You're standing on pretty shaky ground there.
>>
>> The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a
>> direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition,
>> or a similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition.  If
>> you install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an
>> extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular
>> section of NFPA 13?  The handbook provides the following explanatory text
>> on the topic:
>>
>> Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of
>> fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential
>> to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers
>> have time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of
>> sprinklers in a relatively short time period has the potential to overtax
>> the system. For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area
>> design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of extra
>> hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in the
>> discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1.
>>
>> Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and
>> listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies.  Barring
>> that, to follow the guidance you're suggesting the
>> contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing
>> of the sprinkler.  I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people
>> could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read suggestions to
>> ignore both texts.
>>
>> My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and have
>> a good lawyer on retainer.  I don't know of a good defense while sitting in
>> the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me you ignored
>> the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for the
>> installation of that sprinkler?"
>>
>> When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar
>> to that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
>> Escondido, California 92025 Phone 760-745-6181 <760-745-6181> Visit our
>> website  *
>>
>>
>> On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
>>
>> We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash.
>> That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads going
>> off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces with
>> fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head
>> possible going off
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-
>> firesprinkler.org
>>
>> ___
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-
>> firesprinkler.org
>>
>>
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> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>


-- 
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner
Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera
director (1942-)

RE: Paint spray application

[Brad Casterline]

Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve
On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton"  wrote:

> Sure.  And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics and
> FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response sprinklers
> in a minute.   I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers
> and skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the roof/ceiling
> assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode sprinklers
> into EH fires.   (On paper) MDD = .80ADD = .275
>
>
>
> My opinion only,
>
> Steve L.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline
> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Paint spray application
>
>
>
> Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
> I am no more a professional than you are.
> THINK MAN!
> small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can
> muster.
> I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers
> though--
> please stop being so stodgy!
>
> On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" 
> wrote:
>
> I don't know, Brad.  You're standing on pretty shaky ground there.
>
> The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a direct
> contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition, or a
> similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition.  If you
> install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an extra
> hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular section
> of NFPA 13?  The handbook provides the following explanatory text on the
> topic:
>
> Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of
> fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential
> to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers
> have time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of
> sprinklers in a relatively short time period has the potential to overtax
> the system. For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area
> design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of extra
> hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in the
> discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1.
>
> Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and
> listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies.  Barring
> that, to follow the guidance you're suggesting the
> contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing
> of the sprinkler.  I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people
> could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read suggestions to
> ignore both texts.
>
> My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and have
> a good lawyer on retainer.  I don't know of a good defense while sitting in
> the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me you ignored
> the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for the
> installation of that sprinkler?"
>
> When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar to
> that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
> Escondido, California 92025 Phone 760-745-6181 <760-745-6181> Visit our
> website  *
>
>
> On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
>
> We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash.
> That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads going
> off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces with
> fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head
> possible going off
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
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RE: Paint spray application

[Steve Leyton]

Sure.  And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics and FCL’s 
(not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response sprinklers in a 
minute.   I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers and 
skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the roof/ceiling 
assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode sprinklers into EH 
fires.   (On paper) MDD = .80ADD = .275

My opinion only,
Steve L.



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Brad Casterline
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Paint spray application


Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
I am no more a professional than you are.
THINK MAN!
small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can muster.
I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers though--
please stop being so stodgy!
On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" 
> wrote:
I don't know, Brad.  You're standing on pretty shaky ground there.

The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a direct 
contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition, or a similar 
section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition.  If you install QR 
sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an extra hazard 
occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular section of NFPA 
13?  The handbook provides the following explanatory text on the topic:
Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of 
fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential to 
open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers have 
time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of sprinklers in a 
relatively short time period has the potential to overtax the system. For this 
reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area
design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of extra 
hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in the 
discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1.
Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and listed by 
an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies.  Barring that, to 
follow the guidance you're suggesting the contractor/designer/installer has to 
violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing of the sprinkler.  I'm not suggesting the 
gloom and doom drama of "people could die", however it does concern me greatly 
when I read suggestions to ignore both texts.

My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and have a 
good lawyer on retainer.  I don't know of a good defense while sitting in the 
witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me you ignored the 
applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for the installation of 
that sprinkler?"

When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar to that.
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
Escondido, California 92025
Phone 760-745-6181
Visit our website

On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:

We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash.
That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads going off 
way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces with fast 
fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head possible going 
off



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Re: Paint spray application

[Brad Casterline]

Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
I am no more a professional than you are.
THINK MAN!
small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can
muster.
I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers
though--
please stop being so stodgy!
On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" 
wrote:

> I don't know, Brad.  You're standing on pretty shaky ground there.
>
> The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a direct
> contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition, or a
> similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition.  If you
> install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an extra
> hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular section
> of NFPA 13?  The handbook provides the following explanatory text on the
> topic:
>
> Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of
> fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential
> to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers
> have time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of
> sprinklers in a relatively short time period has the potential to overtax
> the system. For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area
> design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of extra
> hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in the
> discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1.
>
> Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and
> listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies.  Barring
> that, to follow the guidance you're suggesting the
> contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing
> of the sprinkler.  I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people
> could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read suggestions to
> ignore both texts.
>
> My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and have
> a good lawyer on retainer.  I don't know of a good defense while sitting in
> the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me you ignored
> the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for the
> installation of that sprinkler?"
>
> When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar to
> that.
>
> *Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting*
>
>
>
> * 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 Escondido, California 92025 Phone
> 760-745-6181 <760-745-6181> Visit our website
>  *
>
> On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
>
> We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash.
> That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads going
> off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces with
> fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head
> possible going off
>
>
>
> ___
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> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
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Re: Paint spray application

[Parsley Consulting]

I don't know, Brad. You're standing on pretty shaky ground there.

The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a 
direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 
edition, or a similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 
edition.  If you install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately 
classed as an extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting 
this particular section of NFPA 13?  The handbook provides the following 
explanatory text on the topic:


   Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of
   fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the
   potential to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before
   the sprinklers have time to control the fire. The operation of a
   large number of sprinklers in a relatively short time period has the
   potential to overtax the system. For this reason, quick-response
   sprinklers using the area
   design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of
   extra hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be
   found in the discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1.

Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and 
listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies.  
Barring that, to follow the guidance you're suggesting the 
contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND the 
listing of the sprinkler.  I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama 
of "people could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read 
suggestions to ignore both texts.


My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and 
have a good lawyer on retainer.  I don't know of a good defense while 
sitting in the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling 
me you ignored the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations 
for the installation of that sprinkler?"


When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar 
to that.

*Ken Wagoner, SET
*Parsley Consulting***
*350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
*Escondido, California 92025
*Phone 760-745-6181*
Visit our website  ***

On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:


We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash.
That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads 
going off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small 
spaces with fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc 
every head possible going off





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Re: Paint spray application

[Brad Casterline]

We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash.
That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads going
off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces with
fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head
possible going off
On Aug 8, 2016 5:02 PM, "Zachary Siegrist" 
wrote:

> I was taught that sidewall sprinklers cannot be used in an extra hazard
> application.  At least that is what I recall.  Additionally, the protection
> areas and maximum spacing table for sidewall heads do not have any
> information for extra hazard occupancies. I am reviewing a set of plans for
> a paint spray booth and sprinklers must be spaced in ducts at 12 foot
> intervals.  The designers called out sidewall sprinklers on plans.  How is
> this best accomplished if you can't use sidewall sprinklers?
>
> Zach
>
>
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> org
>
>
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Re: Paint spray application

[rongreenman .]

It isn't but you can use pendents in any position in a duct. Use a dry
pendant near the top if you have freezing conditions.

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Zachary Siegrist  wrote:

> I was taught that sidewall sprinklers cannot be used in an extra hazard
> application.  At least that is what I recall.  Additionally, the protection
> areas and maximum spacing table for sidewall heads do not have any
> information for extra hazard occupancies. I am reviewing a set of plans for
> a paint spray booth and sprinklers must be spaced in ducts at 12 foot
> intervals.  The designers called out sidewall sprinklers on plans.  How is
> this best accomplished if you can't use sidewall sprinklers?
>
> Zach
>
>
> ___
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> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>


-- 
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner
Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera
director (1942-)
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RE: Kitchen Hoods

[Scott Futrell]

The best method would be to do a temperature survey at the location of the 
sprinkler. Use the temperature recorders that kitchen hood suppression 
contractors use to determine maximum temperatures or a recording device with a 
thermocouple.

The correct sprinkler temperature rating would be a function of the operating 
temperature of the oven, how long it is on (some don't let them cool down much 
at night, how far the sprinkler is from the opening, what the airflow around 
the sprinkler is, and what the ambient temperature of the area is maintained at.

Scott

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 202
Cell: (612) 759-5556

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Brian Harris
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 11:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Kitchen Hoods

What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads spaced around the 
perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I didn't see anything specific about it 
in 13.

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Sprinkler Division
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935

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Paint spray application

[Zachary Siegrist]

I was taught that sidewall sprinklers cannot be used in an extra hazard
application.  At least that is what I recall.  Additionally, the protection
areas and maximum spacing table for sidewall heads do not have any
information for extra hazard occupancies. I am reviewing a set of plans for
a paint spray booth and sprinklers must be spaced in ducts at 12 foot
intervals.  The designers called out sidewall sprinklers on plans.  How is
this best accomplished if you can't use sidewall sprinklers?

Zach
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Re: Kitchen Hoods

[rongreenman .]

That makes sense. And 200s can't hurt. Just pointing out not some bog deal
like around a fan forced heating unit. The worse thing about pizza ovens is
the wood ones that get bootlegged into the grease ducts that don't get
cleaned enough. Fireball that wrecked eight floors of ducting (bulging but
the welds held) in a high-rise. And at the Seattle Center food court the
witnesses said the fireball traveling done the duct sounded like a freight
train in the ceiling.


On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Travis Mack, SET 
wrote:

> I've seen a few false activations...they were in pizza kitchens.  I guess
> there is a lot of hot air that escapes when they open the oven.
>
> NFPA 13 allows the use of intermediate temp heads throughout, so it is
> just easier to go that way.
>
> Travis Mack, SET
> MFP Design, LLC
> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
> Gilbert, AZ 85298480-505-9271
> fax: 866-430-6107email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
> http://www.mfpdesign.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
>
> On 8/8/2016 10:06 AM, rongreenman . wrote:
>
> Really no need to worry as the fan is pulling the hottest are up the duct
> and there will be cooler air from other areas moving into the area to
> replace the exhausted air. I've never seen a sprinkler go off in a kitchen
> unless there was a fire that was outside of the hood perimeter or one that
> escaped the hood perimeter because the hood system failed to extinguish the
> fire.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Travis Mack, SET 
> wrote:
>
>> We just keep the entire kitchen at 200.  No point in mixing sprinklers.
>> Confusing to fitter and maintenance later.
>>
>> Travis Mack, SET
>> MFP Design, LLC
>> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
>> Gilbert, AZ 85298480-505-9271
>> fax: 866-430-6107email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
>> http://www.mfpdesign.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
>> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
>>
>> On 8/8/2016 9:57 AM, Brian Harris wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Travis. How far away from the hood until you’re back to 155 degree
>> heads?
>>
>>
>>
>> *Brian Harris, CET*
>>
>> BVS Systems Inc.
>>
>> bvssytemsinc.com 
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces
>> @lists.firesprinkler.org ]
>> *On Behalf Of *Travis Mack, SET *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 12:56 PM
>> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org *Subject:* Re: Kitchen Hoods
>>
>>
>>
>> 50° above highest expected ambient.
>>
>> We just do 200F sprinklers in all areas as a minimum.
>>
>> Travis Mack, SET
>>
>> MFP Design, LLC
>>
>> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
>>
>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>>
>> 480-505-9271
>>
>> fax: 866-430-6107
>>
>> email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.mfpdesign.com
>>
>> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
>>
>> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
>>
>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
>>
>> On 8/8/2016 9:55 AM, Brian Harris wrote:
>>
>> What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads spaced
>> around the perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I didn’t see anything
>> specific about it in 13.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Brian Harris, CET*
>>
>> BVS Systems Inc.
>>
>> Sprinkler Division
>>
>> bvssystemsinc.com
>>
>> Phone: 704.896.9989
>>
>> Fax: 704.896.1935
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>> firesprinkler.org
>
> --
> Ron Greenman
> 4110 Olson Dr., NW Gig Harbor, WA 98335 rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700
> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
> inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
>
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-- 
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,

Re: Kitchen Hoods

[Travis Mack, SET]

I've seen a few false activations...they were in pizza kitchens. I guess 
there is a lot of hot air that escapes when they open the oven.


NFPA 13 allows the use of intermediate temp heads throughout, so it is 
just easier to go that way.


Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 8/8/2016 10:06 AM, rongreenman . wrote:
Really no need to worry as the fan is pulling the hottest are up the 
duct and there will be cooler air from other areas moving into the 
area to replace the exhausted air. I've never seen a sprinkler go off 
in a kitchen unless there was a fire that was outside of the hood 
perimeter or one that escaped the hood perimeter because the hood 
system failed to extinguish the fire.



On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Travis Mack, SET > wrote:


We just keep the entire kitchen at 200.  No point in mixing
sprinklers.  Confusing to fitter and maintenance later.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271 
fax:866-430-6107 
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com 

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

Send large files to us via:https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
  
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack



On 8/8/2016 9:57 AM, Brian Harris wrote:


Thanks Travis. How far away from the hood until you’re back to
155 degree heads?

*Brian Harris, CET*

BVS Systems Inc.

bvssytemsinc.com 

*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
] *On
Behalf Of *Travis Mack, SET *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 12:56
PM *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 *Subject:* Re:
Kitchen Hoods

50° above highest expected ambient.

We just do 200F sprinklers in all areas as a minimum.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271 
fax:866-430-6107 
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com 
  
http://www.mfpdesign.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

Send large files to us via:https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
  
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack



On 8/8/2016 9:55 AM, Brian Harris wrote:

What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads
spaced around the perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I
didn’t see anything specific about it in 13.

*Brian Harris, CET*

BVS Systems Inc.

Sprinkler Division

bvssystemsinc.com 

Phone: 704.896.9989 

Fax: 704.896.1935 

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--
Ron Greenman
4110 Olson Dr., NW Gig Harbor, WA 98335 rongreen...@gmail.com 
 253.576.9700
A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, 
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)


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Re: Kitchen Hoods

[rongreenman .]

Really no need to worry as the fan is pulling the hottest are up the duct
and there will be cooler air from other areas moving into the area to
replace the exhausted air. I've never seen a sprinkler go off in a kitchen
unless there was a fire that was outside of the hood perimeter or one that
escaped the hood perimeter because the hood system failed to extinguish the
fire.


On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Travis Mack, SET 
wrote:

> We just keep the entire kitchen at 200.  No point in mixing sprinklers.
> Confusing to fitter and maintenance later.
>
> Travis Mack, SET
> MFP Design, LLC
> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
> Gilbert, AZ 85298480-505-9271
> fax: 866-430-6107email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
> http://www.mfpdesign.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
>
> On 8/8/2016 9:57 AM, Brian Harris wrote:
>
> Thanks Travis. How far away from the hood until you’re back to 155 degree
> heads?
>
>
>
> *Brian Harris, CET*
>
> BVS Systems Inc.
>
> bvssytemsinc.com 
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org ] *On Behalf Of *Travis
> Mack, SET
> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 12:56 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Kitchen Hoods
>
>
>
> 50° above highest expected ambient.
>
> We just do 200F sprinklers in all areas as a minimum.
>
> Travis Mack, SET
>
> MFP Design, LLC
>
> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
>
> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>
> 480-505-9271
>
> fax: 866-430-6107
>
> email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
>
>
>
> http://www.mfpdesign.com
>
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
>
> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
>
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
>
> On 8/8/2016 9:55 AM, Brian Harris wrote:
>
> What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads spaced
> around the perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I didn’t see anything
> specific about it in 13.
>
>
>
> *Brian Harris, CET*
>
> BVS Systems Inc.
>
> Sprinkler Division
>
> bvssystemsinc.com
>
> Phone: 704.896.9989
>
> Fax: 704.896.1935
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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-- 
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Re: Kitchen Hoods

[Travis Mack, SET]

We just keep the entire kitchen at 200.  No point in mixing sprinklers.  
Confusing to fitter and maintenance later.


Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 8/8/2016 9:57 AM, Brian Harris wrote:


Thanks Travis. How far away from the hood until you’re back to 155 
degree heads?


*Brian Harris, CET*

BVS Systems Inc.

bvssytemsinc.com 

*From:*Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of 
*Travis Mack, SET

*Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 12:56 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Subject:* Re: Kitchen Hoods

50° above highest expected ambient.

We just do 200F sprinklers in all areas as a minimum.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com 
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via:https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign  
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack


On 8/8/2016 9:55 AM, Brian Harris wrote:

What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads
spaced around the perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I didn’t
see anything specific about it in 13.

*Brian Harris, CET*

BVS Systems Inc.

Sprinkler Division

bvssystemsinc.com 

Phone: 704.896.9989

Fax: 704.896.1935




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RE: Kitchen Hoods

[Brian Harris]

Thanks Travis. How far away from the hood until you're back to 155 degree heads?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 12:56 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Kitchen Hoods


50° above highest expected ambient.

We just do 200F sprinklers in all areas as a minimum.

Travis Mack, SET

MFP Design, LLC

2508 E Lodgepole Drive

Gilbert, AZ 85298

480-505-9271

fax: 866-430-6107

email:tm...@mfpdesign.com



http://www.mfpdesign.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 8/8/2016 9:55 AM, Brian Harris wrote:
What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads spaced around the 
perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I didn't see anything specific about it 
in 13.

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Sprinkler Division
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935





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Re: Kitchen Hoods

[Travis Mack, SET]

50° above highest expected ambient.

We just do 200F sprinklers in all areas as a minimum.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 8/8/2016 9:55 AM, Brian Harris wrote:


What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads spaced 
around the perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I didn’t see 
anything specific about it in 13.


*Brian Harris, CET*

BVS Systems Inc.

Sprinkler Division

bvssystemsinc.com 

Phone: 704.896.9989

Fax: 704.896.1935



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Kitchen Hoods

[Brian Harris]

What are the guidelines for high temp/intermediate temp heads spaced around the 
perimeter of a commercial kitchen hood? I didn't see anything specific about it 
in 13.

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Sprinkler Division
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935

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Re: 13D pumps in separate pump house

[rongreenman .]

Per 13D sprinklers are not required to produce any signals. Smoke alarms
should be going off long before water flow. Local jurisdictions sometimes
think exterior bells are necessary. I suppose they have their rationale,
but I disagree as to the utility. Just a lot of extra money. The whole
intent of 13D was to allow a stripped down life safety system to lower cost
and make the installation more attractive. Adding "bells and whistles" can
defeat the entire intent. I think clear signage on any valving should be
sufficient.

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Ed Vining  wrote:

> I have seen this only once. Certainly any signals generated by the system
> should appear in the residence.
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Todd Williams 
> wrote:
>
>> I have a client with 2 properties where 13D systems will be installed.
>> Both will be fed from 13D pump and tank systems. The tanks and the pumps
>> will be located in out buildings and pipe will be run underground to the
>> main buildings. They want to put all of the valves, alarms, etc in the pump
>> house and just have a straight piece of pipe rising up in the building. I
>> don't particularly like the arrangement but can't find any reference that
>> this cannot be done on a 13D system. Thoughts?
>>
>> Todd G Williams, PE
>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>> Stonington, CT
>> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
>> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>>
>> Sent using CloudMagic
>> 
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ed Vining
> 4819 John Muir Rd
> Martinez CA 94553
> 925-228-8792
> Cell 925-787-0465
>
>
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-- 
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Re: 13D pumps in separate pump house

[rongreenman .]

Why do you not like the arrangement? Sounds good to me if both houses are
considered as one property (tax parcel). If not then there would be an
easement issue but no different than sharing a driveway or well. Just a
paragraph in the deeds.

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Todd Williams  wrote:

> I have a client with 2 properties where 13D systems will be installed.
> Both will be fed from 13D pump and tank systems. The tanks and the pumps
> will be located in out buildings and pipe will be run underground to the
> main buildings. They want to put all of the valves, alarms, etc in the pump
> house and just have a straight piece of pipe rising up in the building. I
> don't particularly like the arrangement but can't find any reference that
> this cannot be done on a 13D system. Thoughts?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> Sent using CloudMagic
> 
>
>
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> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>


-- 
Ron Greenman

4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Re: 13D pumps in separate pump house

[Ed Vining]

I have seen this only once. Certainly any signals generated by the system
should appear in the residence.

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Todd Williams  wrote:

> I have a client with 2 properties where 13D systems will be installed.
> Both will be fed from 13D pump and tank systems. The tanks and the pumps
> will be located in out buildings and pipe will be run underground to the
> main buildings. They want to put all of the valves, alarms, etc in the pump
> house and just have a straight piece of pipe rising up in the building. I
> don't particularly like the arrangement but can't find any reference that
> this cannot be done on a 13D system. Thoughts?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> Sent using CloudMagic
> 
>
>
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> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
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>
>


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Ed Vining
4819 John Muir Rd
Martinez CA 94553
925-228-8792
Cell 925-787-0465
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13D pumps in separate pump house

[Todd Williams]

I have a client with 2 properties where 13D systems will be installed. Both 
will be fed from 13D pump and tank systems. The tanks and the pumps will be 
located in out buildings and pipe will be run underground to the main 
buildings. They want to put all of the valves, alarms, etc in the pump 
house and just have a straight piece of pipe rising up in the building. I 
don't particularly like the arrangement but can't find any reference that 
this cannot be done on a 13D system. Thoughts?


Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 
860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
Sent using CloudMagic 
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RE: RPZ Configuration

[Brian Harris]

Thanks guys !

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Brad Casterline
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2016 1:43 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: RPZ Configuration


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=web=j=http://digital.turn-page.com/i/127056-may-2013/9=0ahUKEwiZ6pefqK3OAhXFyoMKHe9KBsEQFggeMAA=AFQjCNEQZmwKQcZ5U7n-7yIU_h2j3bwRZg

Good eye as usual Forest.
And Brian, sometimes that provision is as easy as making the main drain 2.5" 
instead of 2" if need be.

I hope the link to Roland's 2013 Sprinkler Age article works-- it took me a 
while to stop accidentally pasting links to political articles, and swearing.
On Aug 5, 2016 12:27 PM, "Forest Wilson" 
> wrote:

Provision for forward flow test

On Aug 4, 2016 3:49 PM, "Brian Harris" 
> wrote:
Seem to be having a brain cramp today. Have an RPZ inside the Riser room with 
the FDC connection downstream with a flow switch and ITC. For some reason it 
just looks weird. For a single system what else is required downstream of the 
RPZ?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Sprinkler Division
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935


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Hydrant flow test conservation

[Todd Williams]

Does anyone have good input on conserving water during a hydrant flow test?

Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 
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