I've been traveling in Europe since this thread started, which is why I haven't chimed in yet. Thank you for posting this Skyler, as it's mostly right and suggests what I think is the right path to partnering with the responding fire agency.
For the record, the pressure restrictors at Meridian Plaza performed perfectly comma and we're working exactly as they had been set and commissioned into service. The problem was that they had been installed and adjusted for equipment that Philadelphia Fire Department was using at the time the building was certified for occupancy. At that time they were using large diameter hose and a smooth bore tip that probably only required about 40-50 PSI to perform well. The water supply problems they encountered on response or because the department the switched to different tactics and equipment in their standpipe kits, and firefighters were using small diameter hose and combination tips that required are bare minimum of 75 psi to make pattern. This and other buildings in the city were never revisited and updated to provide adequate pressure for that setup. This underscores how critically important it is to correspond with the serving fire department to make absolutely sure of what pressure they need period many fire agency prevention vureaus don't even know what the operations side needs in specific terms common so sometimes it can be challenging. But asking these questions on a new project may prompt certain fire departments to collaborate on the answer, which is a good thing for all the stakeholders. Nationwide, fire departments are getting away from small diameter hose packs and selectable flow nozzles because of uncertainties about what pressure they're going to actually find on the cose connections if they ever need to connect and go. I personally think that the right pressure is about 125 PSI minimum, but we have been running with the 100 psi for years now and the committee has determined that this is a good pressure, especially with the trend toward larger diameter attack lines and a return to smooth bore tips. I don't know why a fire department would want to cap the pressure at 100 psi on a class one connection, as they can control that themselves at the valve during a firefight. But it's worthy of discussion with them to be sure that the widest possible range of adequate but still safe pressure is available to them on demand. My opinion only, still on vacation and possibly under the influence of a little too much wine. Steve Leyton (Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.) -------- Original message -------- From: Skyler Bilbo <sbi...@wenteplumbing.com> Date: 11/3/23 2:49 PM (GMT+01:00) To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure Regulating Valves Residual Pressures I'm late to the party on this one, but along with talking to the local FD about how they want them set, please make sure and leave a clearly labeled wrench to adjust these on site, in case the FD does need to adjust them in an emergency. If you have never heard of the 1 Meridian Plaza fire, I encourage you to read about it. 3 fire fighters died and they did all kinds of things to try to get more water to fight the fire, which ended up being caused by incorrectly set pressure regulating valves. <goog_2021496895> https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighting-history/articles/one-meridian-plaza-3-firefighters-killed-during-unimaginable-blaze-vOsQ4mBwJMLDxiH4/ We set a wrench on top of the fire pump controller and label it with a sticker saying "wrench for adjusting pressure regulating valves DO NOT REMOVE FROM THIS LOCATION". Even after saying do not remove, they sometimes grow legs and we replace it at our annual inspection. It could save lives for $20. Thanks, Skyler Bilbo [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4y8Hq3kJpcrMKcZPAe4JT4xB7a2Rf10HH9h91m15sYft0q0IkyUaWivqrU3_iQPJ9vznaW8t_4] 1700 S. Raney Street Effingham, IL 62401 217-819-6404 Direct 217-347-7315 Fax sbi...@wenteplumbing.com<mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com> www.wenteplumbing.com<http://www.wenteplumbing.com> On Thu, Nov 2, 2023 at 8:01 AM Bob Caputo <bcap...@firesprinkler.org<mailto:bcap...@firesprinkler.org>> wrote: Lets look at this from the practical application side of things. The standpipe and its valves are there for the fire service, solely and only. Every department has its own operational standards, due in part to the hose nozzles they choose. Some want the hose valves at intermediate landings, some want them on the floor landing. Some want 100 psi, while others want 125 psi at the hose valve (because there is about 29 psi appliance loss in 100 ft of hose) and they want 100 psi at the nozzle. Here on earth, the pressure of elevation is the same for everyone: 0.433 psi per ft of elevation – that is unless you went to the University of Maryland, where its 0.434 psi per ft. 😉 Some departments want the FDC on the address side of the building, while others may want more than one FDC for a high rise that is built on an entire city block. Getting back to the point… NFPA 14 is a minimum standard for the design and installation of standpipes which will be used by the first responders – who should be the only one’s deciding the design criteria and the location of equipment to be used in fighting fires. That’s my 2 cents – I hope that helps. bc [https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4h8r7hdtsr6154/AFSA_L.png?raw=1] Bob Caputo, CFPS President American Fire Sprinkler Association c: 760-908-7753 p: 214-349-5965 ext124 w: firesprinkler.org<http://firesprinkler.org/> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/facebook_sig.png]<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/twitter_sig.png] <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/linkedin_sig.png] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/instagram_sig.png] <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/> Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations Workshop AFSA’s three-day, in-person workshop provides a deep dive into the principles of hydraulics, including the different types of pressure, calculating changes in pressure (elevation and friction loss), and node analysis. Click here<https://www.firesprinkler.org/programs/calculations/> for details and to register. From: Kyle.Montgomery <kmontgom...@aerofire.com<mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com>> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 6:21 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure Regulating Valves Residual Pressures Well, they can’t have a minimum of 100 psi AND a maximum of 100 psi available at the hose valve. So, if they want to limit the residual pressure to a maximum of 100 psi, then they need to deviate from NFPA 14 and allow LESS THAN 100 psi as the minimum. [Note: I suppose that maybe you could utilize a pilot-operated pressure-regulating valve at every hose valve location to keep the pressure right at 100 psi over a wide range of flow, but that would be unorthodox to say the least.] Kyle Montgomery [cid:633b16486053563_0.1] Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 kmontgom...@aerofire.com<mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com> From: Greg McGahan <g...@genesisfireservices.com<mailto:g...@genesisfireservices.com>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2023 9:16 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pressure Regulating Valves Residual Pressures With all due respect Rick, I have had Fire Departments very concerned about the residual pressure being greater than 100 psi for safety. Sizing PRV's is not the easiest part of a standpipe design. If you are in a jurisdiction that requires With all due respect Rick, I have had Fire Departments very concerned about the residual pressure being greater than 100 psi for safety. Sizing PRV's is not the easiest part of a standpipe design. If you are in a jurisdiction that requires flow testing and recording the pressures prior to the final inspection (as it should be per NFPA 14), guessing could cost a lot of money to correct. On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 10:49 AM Rick Matsuda <rick26...@gmail.com<mailto:rick26...@gmail.com>> wrote: The requirements of NFPA-14 for the standpipe hose valves are maximum 175-psi static outlet pressure and minimum 100-psi residual outlet pressure while flowing 250-gpm through the hose valve. If your pump source is from the city mains, then make it easy on yourself and select a PRV hose valve that will provide maximum 165-psi static outlet pressure. This should allow you to use whatever residual inlet pressure while flowing the 750-gpm total standpipe demand and still provide the minimum 100-psi residual outlet pressure. I used the 165-psi static outlet pressure cause the pump inlet pressure may vary up/down which will vary the pump static outlet pressure which may raise the static outlet pressure over 175-psi. If the pump source has a constant pressure like an elevated tank, then select a PRV that will provide a maximum 175-psi outlet pressure. Just my opinion but if you select a PRV based on the maximum static outlet pressure then this should allow a bit more than the 100-psi minimum outlet pressure. Check the charts to verify this. Don’t select a PRV based on providing just the minimum outlet pressure. I think that the fire department will appreciate any extra pressure to offset the friction loss through their fire hoses. Rick Matsuda On Oct 31, 2023, at 7:24 AM, Eric Rieve <e...@rievefire.com<mailto:e...@rievefire.com>> wrote: Micah, Looking at the spec sheet from Zurn I agree with Travis that you use your expected residual pressure while flowing the full system demand of 750gpm. I haven’t installed this valve myself, but you’ll notice on the residual pressure charts that the bonnet type curve lines stop well below 175psi. So, while you may pick a 120psi outlet pressure while flowing 750gpm, the extra play in the curve should allow the valve to maintain an outlet pressure below 175psi when being tested individually at 250gpm. Hope this helps! Eric Rieve, SET Rieve Fire Protection From: Micah Davis <micah...@gmail.com<mailto:micah...@gmail.com>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2023 6:53 AM To: SprinklerForum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Pressure Regulating Valves Residual Pressures Good morning, Forum! I hope everyone is having a great week!! I think I got this right, but someone is questioning me. I have an automatic standpipe with factory pressure-regulating valves (i.e., Zurn 4000). When calculating residual pressures at the inlet of the PRV to be used in the sizing charts, the question is, how much water should I be flowing in the system? One suggestion is only flowing 250 gpm at the hose valve you are sizing. The other suggestion is flowing the system demand flow per NFPA 14. In this case, that would be 750 gpm (250 gpm at each of the two most remote hose valves plus 250 gpm at the top of the only other standpipe). We are in agreement that the calculation should be a source calc to determine the actual pressure provided by the system. Thank you, Micah Davis Ferguson Fire Design _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org__;!!Ba8_KKAT!Kd8DM2LZyWcEocYD3fg3JDRWY4EbJccNoJAO5nUwJLrU7pZ1PertiR4yFJWGSKkoUpznUXzAlJwSH_Xv107ezuPG$> To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org__;!!Ba8_KKAT!Kd8DM2LZyWcEocYD3fg3JDRWY4EbJccNoJAO5nUwJLrU7pZ1PertiR4yFJWGSKkoUpznUXzAlJwSH_Xv107ezuPG$> To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org> -- Greg McGahan Genesis Fire Services, LLC 4912 Glover Lane. 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